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Jesus is God whether you like it or not
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;…
1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Romans 14:10-12 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Hi liljon,
So if you say Jesus is the God of the Old Testament then does Jesus have an existence of his own or not?
Who is the Son of God?
Who sent him into the world and resurrected him?Please do not tire us with theological assumptions but show us from the Word of God what you believe.
Hi,
Some have suggested that we should worship the Son of God.
As T8 has pointed out the order revealed in the bible is :
God
Yeshua
Husband
Wife.The Son is in submission to the Father and calls the Father his God.
Likewise the writers of the New Testament refer to Yeshua not infrequently in a personal way as our God, not to be confused with The God, the Father.It seems likely then that the relationship between man and Yeshua can be compared with the relationship between man and wife. They are one. They love one another and serve one another but the husband has the biblical authority in Christ. Scripture makes it plain in several places that the wife should live as subject to her husband or in submission to him even if he is not a christian[1Peter]. Likewise the blessing comes through the believing husband on the family in Christ.
Does the wife worship her husband?
Not likely.
Should we worship Yeshua?
No we serve our awesome Lord and Master.Hi Nick Hassan and t8!
I very much like your approach to understanding the Bible and searching for the truth. The Scripture is the only source of truth and God is the only one that gives us understanding and knowledge of the scriptures- Proverbs 2:6. Our mind and traditions are not greater than the Scripture. And ALL Bible is valid for building our understanding of the God's truth.
Just wanted to ask – have you ever had a chance to look deeper into the Bible teachings preached by Jehovah's Witnesses? Did you know that many points that you have discussed and agreed in this forum (no trinity, no salvation by faith only, Jesus = Son of God, holy spirit = God's divine force etc) are very much similar to those of Jehovah's Witnesses?
If you do not agree with Jehovah's Witnesses – can you please mention scriptural reasons why not?
JWs also started as a group of Bible students who did not want to agree with the mainstream christian teachings and looked into the Bible for the right answers.The father sent him and he is the son of god and I already showed you that Jesus is God in the Flesh
Jesus is worshipped althrough the bible and He is our Master and Lord
Modem Mouth,
Quote Why isnt the three into one concept or God the Son written in scripture? Dunno, good point I suppose. Im sure I could trawl the trinitarian websites for some good answers, but I really can't be bothered. Thank you for answering my question. When you can be bothered to dig deeper for Truth, let me know what you come up with. Thanks for taking the time.
T8,
The concept of there being two deities, two uncreated beings, is completely unscriptural. Just as you will find no verses in scripture that talk about God being three in one, you will also not find any verses in scripture that talk about there being two uncreated beings. There is only one Deity.
Quote Proverbs 30:4Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! Just in case you intend to use this argument with an orthodox Jew, or anyone else who is familiar with OT scripture, you should be aware that the book of Proverbs is attributed to King Solomon, and Solomon is specifically called a son of Yahweh previously in scripture:
1 Chronicles 28:6 Now He said to me, “It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.”
By the way, why are reminding me that Yeshua is not Yahweh. I am already aware of that fact. Yeshua is the Annointed One, (i.e. the Messiah), the Son of God. (See IChronicles verse above for an example of a mere man being called a son of God.)
Nick and T8,
For me it comes down to one simple question: How many gods were involved in creation? I tend to agree with Yahweh when He said that it was Him alone.
Isaiah 44:24Thus says [Yahweh], your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am [Yahweh], who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;”What do you say?
(I already know your answer, but I am sure that others will appreciate your explanation.)
liljon,
Did you get a chance to read the link that I posted on the development of the Trinity doctrine?
Hi Human,
I realise that the JW's views on some things are similar. Yes they reject the trinity but the similarity ends there. The small amount of study I have made of them has disturbed me.The JWs believe that they can become one of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7 and 14-despite the fact that there are more than 144,000 JWs! This is foolishness as these are identified as from the 12 tribes of Israel, the first fruits.
The striving driving style of the JWs reflects that they do not have the Holy Spirit. Because where the Spirit is there is freedom, not useless self effort.
Man's domination is reflected in the strict regulations and doctrinal controls. Where is the evidence that Yeshua is the head of that body?
Thanks for your comment, Nick!
Let me just slightly clarify what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
About the 144,000: JWs believe that only these will go to heaven to be “kings and priests” with Jesus. These are the “little flock” that Jesus spoke about. Daniel also wrote in his book that there will be a “holy nation” that will rule over earth. HOWEVER, these are not the only ones that will be saved. JWs teach that there will be millions of people that will be ressurected to live on earth and a large number of people will survive in Armageddon. Actually if you think about it, that is exactly what God intended in the beginning – earth full with righteous people. And, as we know, God does not change and he does not draw back from his intentions.
The 144,000 are not the literal tribes of Israel because 1) Rev 5:9-10 tells us that they are bought from “all nations” and 2) the list of the Israel tribes in Rev is different from the one in Hebrew scriptures.
The Kingdom of Heaven is a solution not a destination. Jesus would never have to come to earth if Adam did not sin.You posted a good question – how can we know that the head of the body is Jesus not man? How can we know that the holy spirit is guiding them? Well, there is no simple way to answer that without carefully examining what JWs do and how their preaching work is organized. The decision is up to each person separately.
However, the points that I would like to separate out are JWs' 1) strict reliance on the Bible and not traditions 2) scope and emphasis on the preaching work in the whole world.
And why do you think that they are not “free”? There is a difference between a) being forbidden to do something and b) knowing God's mind and Bible's view on what is bad and what is wrong. JWs as we all are free to do whatever we want, however not anything we do pleases God. Do you not agree? And we cannot know what pleases God if we do not study Bible.However, these are subjective issues that everyone can disagree for one or another reason. I was more talking about what they teach.
I suggest just taking a closer look at JWs' beliefs and the scriptural basis for that.Hi liljon,
Does Jesus have a spirit and personality of his own or is he only a shell of the Father in your view?Hi Human,
Yes there is to be a millenial kingdom where Jesus will rule the nations with and iron Rod.
As 2 Tim 2.11-12 says his followers will rule with him. Jesus told his disciples they would sit on thrones and judge the tribes of Israel. 1 Peter 2.9 tells us we are to be priests too. All the saved in Jesus have this opportunity and this has nothing to do with the 144,000.
The 144,000 are a unique group. They are the bond- servants.They are jews sealed with the name of the Father and the Son on their foreheads [How are the tribes different by the way?]. They will be celibates. They are the remnant of the chosen people, the first fruits [Rom 9.27] though some jews will also be among the saved in Yeshua. All the saved together make up the Bride of Christ.[Rev 5, of course, refers only to heavenly angelic beings].
These are separate groups, the 144,000 and the huge crowd of Rev 19.6. Just as there is a separate group waiting under the throne in rev 6 and another that comes out of the great tribulation[rev 7.14].
They will not go to heaven [ nor will any other human] but they will minister to God in the temple on the new earth in Rev 22.3.They do not choose themselves.
That is my reading anyway. It differs very significantly from that of the JWs apparently.Hi WIT,
If you deny scripture and refuse to accept that the Son of God was begotten by God and was with God in the beginning, then of course you will not accept his godlike nature and status.No surprises here. He is the alpha and the omega.Hi liljon.
Yes the Father and Jesus are one.
Yes Jesus is filled with the Spirit of the Father and comes in His name.
Yes the Father is God and the son of God is His image. Is an image the original. Does a mirror reflect all of the original?
But the Father is the God of Jesus too.
They are not the same.Hi Human,
I understand the JWs also teach that Yeshua is Michael the Archangel based on 1 Thess 4.16.!
” No, the Lord himself will come down from heaven at the word of command, at the sound of the archangel's voice and God's trumpet;and those who have died in Christ will rise first”
Scripture does not teach that the Son of God is an angel but rather that he was God's instrument in creating the angels.
That scripture above is a clear example of God doing His work through agents such as angels. Angels constantly do the will and work of God as any trip through Revelation will clearly show.
So does Yeshua who comes in the name of the Lord.
So do men working in the name of Yeshua.
The Son of God deserves more respect than that teaching reveals. Can you shed more light on this?Hi Nick,
Well, about those tribes of Israel. You can compare Rev 7 with Genesis 49 or Numbers 1.
Also take a look at Luke 1:33 – “And He [Jesus] will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Do you think the author ment a literal house of Jacob (Israel)? The literal house of Jacob was destroyed in 70 C.E when Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Nowdays noone can prove that he/she belongs to a particular tribe of Israel. Bible also speaks in many places that the chance of becoming a holy nation will be taken away from the Jews and will be given to Gentiles.
In Luke 1, the author speaks about a spiritual Israel (“circumcised in heart”) and the same with Rev 7 and Rev 14.About Jesus being an archangel: well there are several points to consider:
1) Jesus is Son of God and all angels are called “sons of God”
2) as you mentioned, 1 Thess 4:16 tells us that the dead will raise up whem they hear the archangel's voice. John 5:28 tells us that the dead will hear Jesus' voice. Jude 9 tells us that Michael is an archangel. There are no other archangels mentioned in the Bible.
3) Rev 12:7 tells us that Michael is the one leading his army of angels against Satan and, when Satan is thrown down, Rev 12:10 tells us that “the power of Christ has come”.
4) Rev 20:1 says that an “angel” comes down from heaven and binds Satan for 1000 years. Do you think there is a simple angel who can bind Satan, especially when you think how powerful is Satan (look at Ezek 28:12-19).
5) JWs do not say that Jesus is just a simple angel. JWs believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God and through him everything was created, including angels. Therefore I do not think that the title “archangel” is an under-estimate.I hope this sheds some light!
btw – when you say that the “kings and priests” will be physically present on earth during the millenium rule, how do you then understand the following verses?
John 15:2-3 In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
Luke 17:20 Some Pharisees asked Jesus when God's kingdom would come. He answered, “God's kingdom isn't something you can see.
Where is Jesus going to be (remeber that God's kings and priests will be with Jesus)?
1 Peter 3:22 Christ is now in heaven, where he sits at the right side of God. All angels, authorities, and powers are under his control.
Hi Human,
Michael is the only archangel identified in the Word of God. The word Archangel means Chief Angel. So first of all it identifies him as an angel. Yeshua is not an angel. He was instrumental in creating them.
There are millions of angels and there is no suggestion that there is only one archangel. Michael leads the angels against Satan under the authority of God and the Son of God. Angels are servants and messengers and fight against rebellious angels. The Son of Man fights men when he comes to reclaim the earth for God.My view is that there are other words used to describe archangels.They are given special responsibility and fight against other archangels as in Daniel. They are awesome such that when one comes to earth in Revn the whole world is lit up.They have names such as Michael and Gabriel and Raphael. [Though many would not accept this a quick look at Enoch will clarify their roles]
Equivalent names
Sons of God -as in Gen 6,Jb 1,2,38, Ps 89
Princes-Dan 8,9,10,12
Elders-Rev 5,7
The Assembly of the Holy Ones.Ps 89.The SONS of God appear several times in the OT from Gen 6 onwards and Satan is described as being among them in Jb 1-2-as an archangel in my view. Yeshua is the firstborn and only, only begotten[monogenes] Son of God above all of the other sons in glory and authority and they were created through him. Of course it is also a generic term and includes others such as “the saved” and Adam, Solomon etc.
A study of Daniel reveals that the PRINCES are mentioned several times with Michael mentioned as one of the chief Princes[so there is order in them too] and the prince who looks after the jewish people. Yeshua, the messiah is called the Prince of Princes. It fits too with Satan, the prince of darkness and the prince of the air being one of the archangels. His fellow rebellious princes are among the principalities we are told we fight against [Eph and 1 Thess]
The 24 ELDERS in Revelation cannot be human as they are in heaven, and are present before the great tribulation separate from all the rest of the saved. Likewise if these are not the archangels where are these very powerful beings mentioned in heaven in Revelation?
The Assembly of the Holy Ones probably includes Seraphim, Cherubim and angels too.
So that is my view. Either way I cannot accept the Messiah is an angel in any form and that insults his Majesty.
Hi Human,
The circumcision of the heart is the baptism in the New Covenant.[Coll 2.11-13]It applies to all who are reborn into Yeshua.The 144,000 have the name of Yeshua and the Father on their foreheads spiritually . So they are jews and reborn christians.
God has never lost sight of the house of Jacob which will be revealed in good time. It still exists.That scripture tells of the reign of Yeshua and the tribe will be revealed by then.
We know that man is body ,soul and spirit from 1Thess. We know that the body dies and the soul sleeps[1thess] and the spirit returns to God[Eccles].We know that our spirits await the resurrection in a place that Yeshua calls his Father's house. We know that Stephen asked Yeshua to receive his spirit so presumably he meets us to take us there. We are not told where this house is but Paul was anxious to leave his tent behind and go there so I expect it will be prepared for the sons of God in magnificent fashion.
In the time of Yeshua's visit to earth the kingdom began but was not of earth but heaven. When he returns in glory and the righteous are resurrected is when the rule of Christ on earth physically begins.The sons of God rule with him after he returns to earth, on earth. All angels are not called 'sons of God' in the Word-only archangels in my view.
Satan deserves great respect, as Jude shows, but there is no biblical evidence that he is stronger than any other archangel such as Michael. What God says will happen will happen even if our minds cannot grasp it.Hi Human,
So the only difference between the tribes [sons of Jacob]is that Dan is absent and Manasseh is the replacement. He is the firstborn son of Joseph who had a half tribe. Can someone clarify this?Hi Human,
Mt 24.30f” …and they will se the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory and he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together his elect from the 4 winds, from one end of the sky to the other”
The angels serve Yeshua and help in the gathering that is the resurrection. He gives the order and they do the gathering.
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