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Hi WIT,
It is the antitrinitarian bias of men approaching the level of paranoia that is the problem.It is very clear to me that that site sets out to justify and underpin established doctrines and not seek truth.
Neither bias, or any bias, is helpful in finding truth.
Truth is simple and does not need help in expressing itself. Obscure interpretations should not be sought unless the obvious does not fit.
“The wisdom from above is first of all peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy..”James 3.17Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2005,21:27) Welcome roberts,
Where is omnipresence in the bible?
Jesus prayed to his God and told us to pray to 'Our Father in heaven'.
Was this not a true scripture? Is the Father not in heaven?Should we follow what theologians think about God or what the bible reveals about God?
Nick,Matthew 18
19“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”How many prayer meetings are being conducted concurrently at any given time? Thousands I would suspect, and yet Jesus is in the midst of them all.
Jesus is onmipresent
No MM,
Omnipresent means absolutely everywhere. Yashua is with his people wherever thy are, but that is not everywhere is it?What difference does it make? He can be in more than one place at once. There's nothing in scripture to suggest that He can't be everywhere at once. Given that He created the whole universe I don't think it would be much of a stretch though.
It is still presumption though.
We are only interested in what can be proven from the Word. We leave imaginative theories to the 'experts'Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2005,00:19) I agree Paul pleaded with Christ. Yeshua is our mediator with the Father so we need to be able to call on him. All individual christians can sup with him.[Rev 3.20]True worshippers do not worship him or any other god but worship the Father.[Jn 4.23] Yes Yeshua revealed the Father as he was filled with the Spirit of the Father and worked in the name of the Father.But ,as you say, the Father is in heaven.
Nick,
Can you clarify your position on prayer to Jesus please. Is this what you are saying: you can plead with Jesus, you can ask anything of Jesus, you can call upon His name and He will mediate between us and the Father. But, you cannot pray to Him per se. Is this your teaching?Also, are we or are we not to have 'koinonia' with Jesus, as Paul teaches, and if prayer to Him is excluded, then how are we to do this?
Thank you
Hi MM,
I am learning.
What have you learned on this matter?
I speak to my Lord each day and commune with him. Is this prayer?
I bless the Father in his name and seek my daily needs.In your scriptural study have you found these things?
Should Yeshua be worshipped?
Should non christians worship him?
Should christians worship him?
Is all prayer the same?
Do we approach the throne of grace in the same way as we commune with the messiah?Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah and the son of God. If you build on another foundation, then you build in vain.
Why let the gates of Hell prevail against this simple truth by following after the philosophies of men of which the Trinity doctrine is chief.
It is eternal life to believe that God sent Yeshua. Whatever way you argue for the Trinity, you cannot have both your Trinity doctrine and the belief that Yeshua came from God (the son of God).
He is either the son of God, God, or neither, but he cannot be all or even 2 of the above.
I know which belief I bat for.
Nick,
Quote Obscure interpretations should not be sought unless the obvious does not fit. Unless the obvious does not fit with what? I think the answer to that question is where our differences lie. Again, unless you think that scripture has been perfectly translated into English, then I don't think it is inappropriate to look at the language that is being translated for possible clues as to the true meaning behind a passage.
Quote Sorry I had forgotten about the Deut 13 challenge. That's OK. Thanks for responding to it. We obviously disagree, but there is no point in me trying force my interpretation on you. I would, however, reiterate that you should be a little more careful about calling people false teachers who see Deut 13:1-6 as a strong warning against the possibility of a second deity, (i.e. a god that the children of Israel had not known before their journey into the promised land). Afterall, all scripture is good for reproof, instructions in righteousness, and the establishment of doctrine.
ModemMouth,
Did you miss my response to your list of questions?
To WIT 1 John 5:7
Cyprian's reference (in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 5, Treatise 1, paragraph 6)
The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.” He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathereth elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, “I and the Father are one;” and again it is written of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, “And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.
Augustine, Contra Maximinium, Lib. II, cap. xxii.3
…But if we will inquire into the things signified I by these, there not unreasonably comes into our thoughts the Trinity itself, which is the One, Only, True, Supreme God, Father and Son and Holy Ghost, of whom it could most truly be said, “There are Three Witnesses, and the Three are One:”…Cyprian, De Unit. Eccl., cap. vi
He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathereth elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.Thank you liljon,
Cyprian was born about 200 ad and was a bishop in Africa about 250 ad. There followed persecution under the Roman Emperors and many christians apostasised. There were conflicts about whether those who had done so remained in the church.
Arguments about who had the authority to decide these things surfaced and the power of the clergy grew. Baptism in the name of the trinity was approved by the bishop of Rome.
Cyprian supported the unity of the church and the centrality based on Rome. He was finally executed by the romans and so was regarded as a 'saint'
So the appearance of the traditional church and it's falsehoods preceded Constantine.Hi WIT,
When scripture warns against private interpretation [2 Peter]it is warning about interpretation according to human wisdom rather than spiritual wisdom.The Word of God was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit and thus needs the Holy Spirit's help to understand it. Division in understandings suggests the absence of the Spirit and I would plead for all christians to seek this free gift to help develop unity in the assembly.
There are many strong warnings about false teachers in the Word of God. One of the most obvious features of the church is that no one seems aware of their presence. Yeshua warned they would arise among us and the tares would be among the wheat. Where is discernment visible? How would you recognise a false teacher and would you speak out?
Why is scripture treated as though all interpretations are valid? We are not dealing with the word of man but the Word of God. We have a treasure to keep pure for the next generation.
I am still learning and appreciate being corrected when I am wrong because it is the approval of the Master I seek.
In english a word like 'lead' has many meanings but some are totally unrelated. Context and theme has to be the arbiter of the true interpretation surely?Hi WIT
Jn 5.39
” You search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life;AND IT IS THESE THAT BEAR WITNESS OF ME”
46″ For if you believed Moses, you would believe me:FOR HE WROTE OF ME”
The Son of God is not new to scripture but was in the beginning with the Father.liljon,
Those quotes do not reference the relevant part of the verses in question. The phrase “three in one” does appear in the text, but only in reference to spirit, water, and blood – not to the Father, Son, and Ghost. See the short article below for an explanation from a Trinitarian:
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1185
Nick,
Quote Hi WIT
Jn 5.39
” You search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life;AND IT IS THESE THAT BEAR WITNESS OF ME”
46″ For if you believed Moses, you would believe me:FOR HE WROTE OF ME”
The Son of God is not new to scripture but was in the beginning with the Father.Moses talks about a coming prophet and savior, not a second deity.
The term “son of God” always referred to creation, either men or angels, in the OT, not to a second deity. In fact, there is not a single reference to a legitmate second deity in the OT. Instead, you will find repeated injunctions not to follow after other supposed deities, as well as the repeated claim that Yahweh is the only legitimate deity.
Yes, Yeshua is in the OT, but not as a second deity. He is only described as a coming Prophet and King – the chosen man of Yahweh.
Our differences in terms of how we interpret scripture can be summed up quite simply:
You believe that the New Testament should be studied first and used to interpret the OT, (if the OT is to be seriously studied at all). I believe that the OT is the foundation for the NT and must be studied first before one can ever hope to understand what came after it.
Again though, I have no intentions of forcing my views on you. We can't both be right, of course, but nothing will be gained by us calling each other liars, or false teachers. As you say, only the Spirit of Yahweh can lead us into Truth. I pray that we both submit to that Spirit.
Hi WIT,
I believe all scripture is inspired.
I believe a wise man can take good things out of his storehouse, both OLD and NEW.
I believe the Son of God [begotten of God] is the ultimate interpreter of all scripture-old and new, but his words are recorded in the NEW testament. He was born after John the Baptist but John said 'HE WAS BEFORE ME'.There are many gods as Jesus Christ said in Mt 10 quoting Ps 82 and Exodus. The word GOD has confused so many. I believe God allows this a stumbling block for the ignorant. Some see every reference to GOD as referring only to the Father. They then see the word as suggesting opposition to the 1st commandment and idolatry. That is because of references to idolatry of false gods in the OT.
Yeshua upheld the 1st commandment and yet spoke of men as gods. He is the ultimate judge of truth. If he called them gods was his own status greater than theirs? obviously. The status or nature must be differentiated from worship of idols.
If Thomas or others called Yeshua 'our god' were they suggesting he was the Father, the God of the OT?
No.
They were referring to his status as the firstborn Son of God who existed with God in the beginning and who chose to humble himself and partake of our human nature too. They were recognising his role as head of his body on earth. They did not worship him as the Father is worshipped.I meet some who start their first study of the bible by looking at the awful death and destruction shown there in the OT and do not continue. That is why I would never recommend that approach.
We are both working towards the same end, WIT, but the gentleness and blessing hand of God is best shown in the NT in my opinion. But we can gain so much more when we add the deep and reliable insights of the OT.
We still have to bear in mind that Yeshua was killed by the religious people of his day who scripture says were godless despite their sincerity. Their influence should not be allowed to intrude into the revelation of the NT as I have seen the evil results of. The new bread is unleavened and the yeast of the Pharisees must be got rid of. The new wine must go into new wineskins.
Yeshua said that people prefer OLD wine. That still is the case. But Yeshua brought the living water that those in the OT could not all enjoy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2005,19:45) Hi WIT
Jn 5.39
” You search the scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life;AND IT IS THESE THAT BEAR WITNESS OF ME”
46″ For if you believed Moses, you would believe me:FOR HE WROTE OF ME”
The Son of God is not new to scripture but was in the beginning with the Father.
Very good point Nick.WhatIsTrue, I will be answering your post when I have the time to do it justice.
EXODUS CHAPTER 20
1 And the Lord spoke all these words, saying:
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 You shall have NO other gods beside Me.
To say Jesus is your God and it not be true is in direct violation fo this command.
Jesus is The God of the Old Testament
Isaiah 44:24
Hebrews 1:10Hi Nick Hassan, and all,
You ask are you saved.
IT'S APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE
AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT
You Must Be Born Again
I have been judged while standing looking at hell that covered the whole horizon. I was asked if I would die. I thought it meant to die in the body, not the ego or old man. It may mean both, but I know that the ego dies, and you are born again in Spirit.Jesus will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.====
After being judged and directed in the right direction I would say I am saved. There is a lot of meanings for saved. If you mean saved from hell I was.
====
Are all people temples of the Holy Spirit.
That I don’t know for sure.
—
NKJV
2 Corinthians 11
2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
—
Through the child of Eve whose father was the serpent man now has a fleshly body. Before that man had a Spiritual body.Now some people are Spiritual and others are mixed.
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John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.John 17:9
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
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I don’t know if the people that are of the devil have the temple of God within themselves.====
We are made in God’s Spiritual image. Not the fleshly image of the devil.
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Give me the Scripture that says the body dies in baptism.
—
Washing of regenerationTitus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and
renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our
Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs
according to the hope of eternal life.
—
Our Spirit is regenerated. The Spirit lives, it does not die.
—
Romans 6: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that
the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve
sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
—THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without
works is dead also.
—–
When you are born again in Spirit the body is dead. That is because you are out of body. When you are out of body the body is dead.You could be born again when you are baptized, but I would say that only a few are born again in Spirit then.
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I moved into a house and a demon was in the house. It would make you hair stand up. A horrible experience. It was too powerful to be a ghost. It took a while to have it leave the house.
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You ask a lot of questions……
KarylHi liljon,
A common mistake to misinterpret this verse.
It refers to idolatry not the existence of gods.Read again the command I suggest.
Does it say there are no other gods. No.
Yeshua says there are-even men.What does it mean to 'have' another god?
Does it not mean to revere and worship another god?What does 'before me' mean?
Does it not mean to place another god higher than our Father God?
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