The Trinity Doctrine

[Ramblinrose]

t8, I have replied on the first two items but am still working on the last.  I will post it when I have completed it.

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1) BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER,
AND OF THE SON,
AND OF THE HOLY GOST" (Matt. 28:19).
——————————————–
If I was an apostle and had witnessed Jesus risen from the dead and he instructed me to baptise in the ‘name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost’, then that is exactly what I would do, wouldn’t you?  Yet, when you read further they baptised in the name of Jesus only.  If the apostles baptised this way you do have to wonder about the wording in that verse.  A forgery? Interpolation?

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2) MY LORD AND MY GOD. (John 20:28).
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It’s funny you should bring up this verse as I had been looking at this also.  You have covered the verse well but I would like to add another point.  Sometimes it pays to look at what is not said or done in a verse to read more meaning into it.

It is interesting to note that when Jesus appeared and Thomas has acknowledged him as ‘Lord and God’ that there is no record of Thomas falling to his knees or at the feet of Jesus and worshipping him especially since he had just declared him to be GOD.  None of  the disciples are recorded as falling to their knees or to Jesus’ feet either.  There is no comment at all that anybody worshipped him at this point.  Why has nobody fallen down and worshipped Jesus if Thomas had just declared that he was GOD?  

Matthew 14:33  Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 28:9  And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Matthew 28:17  And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Luke 24:52  And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

God Bless

[Archieve]

trinity believers have their eyes close to the truth. God hasn’t close their eyes, they have closed their eyes themselves.

The name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost is Jesus. That’s why people are baptized in the name Jesus.

Jesus said:

St. John 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Love

Archieve

[Proclaimer]

NT scriptures with
IN THE NAME OF JESUS…
Nowhere in the Bible do people do things in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Why???

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:6
6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."

Acts 3:16
16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

Acts 4:18
18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

Acts 5:40
40 His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

Acts 9:27
27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

Acts 10:48
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 16:18
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

Acts 19:13
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out."

Acts 19:13
13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out."

1 Cor 1:10
10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

1 Cor 5:4
4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,

1 Cor 6:11
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 5:20
20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 3:17
17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

II Th 3:6
6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
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IN MY NAME…

Matt 18:5
5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

Matt 18:20
20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Matt 24:5
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Mark 9:37
37 "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."

Mark 9:39
39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,

Mark 9:41
41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Mark 13:6
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, `I am he,’ and will deceive many.

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Luke 9:48
48 Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all– he is the greatest."

Luke 21:8
8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am he,’ and, `The time is near.’ Do not follow them.

John 14:13
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

John 14:14
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 14:26
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit– fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 16:23
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 16:24
24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

John 16:26
26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

[Proclaimer]

Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

This verse seems to hint at multiple baptisms. If so, maybe to baptize in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit means multiple baptisms. eg Baptized in the Name of Jesus in water, baptism of the Holy Spirit etc. After all there a many baptisms. Baptism of fire etc (Matthew 3:11).

Romans 6:3
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

When we are baptized into Jesus, we seem to partake of Jesus ministry.

1 Corinthians 1:13
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 10:2
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Again sharing **** ministry. Paul & Moses in these cases. Of course Paul wasn’t endorsing baptism in his name. I am just trying to get a true meaning given different scripturual uses of the word baptism. Also John’s baptism was repentance, which was also his ministry in order to prepare the way for the Christ.

Maybe baptism is about taking on a ministry. Maybe baptism in water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit is taken out of context today.
Maybe we should be baptizing in water in the Name of Jesus and also baptizing with the baptism of the Spirit. What is baptism of the Father then?
This thinking is probably only relevant if Matt 28:19 is a true scripture.
BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER,
AND OF THE SON,
AND OF THE HOLY GOST" .
Gospelnet.com doesn’t record any controversy with it. All the translations use it. If it is a forgery then it would have to have been forged a very long time ago and I wonder if God would allow such a deception.

What do you guys think about Matt 28:19. Multiple baptisms (imparting ministries), forged verse or something else? I know that you have already spoken about this verse RamblinRose, but I take it that you are open to looking at possible meanings circumstances.

What does "Name" mean in the original language ?
Does Jesus Name mean more than the sound Jesus. Does it encompass everything He is and stands for?
eg Sometimes we say things like in the name of sanity or the name of justice and we are talking about the meaning, not the sound of the word. So if we are baptized in Jesus name, does it mean that we are being baptized into him and what he stands for, rather than just a spoken "in Jesus Name".

Maybe someone can look up what the possible meanings of the word baptism. My concordance and study material is in New Zealand and I am currently travelling through South America with 1 bible and a laptop.
In this post I am not teaching or preaching, just thinking out loud.

Also the following verse is interesting because it not only talks about baptism in the context of ministry but it also shows us that Jesus doesn’t have the authority to give positions and authority in Heaven because it is not his to give. Another scripture which shows that Jesus is subject to his God and our God.

Matthew 20:20-23
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

[Proclaimer]

I wrote in the previous post "Multiple baptisms (imparting ministries)" maybe par-taking of a ministry is a better description???

[Proclaimer]

Just had a thought.

BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER,
AND OF THE SON,
AND OF THE HOLY GOST"

The scripture itself if translated correctly, seems to be talking about multiple (3) baptisms otherwise you would say baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit

[Archieve]

Jesus is the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is God.

Jesus is God’s Son. His name is Jesus as well.

Love,

Archieve

[Ramblinrose]

To Archieve

You stated that the name or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus.

I don’t agree with this view.  

God’s name is Yahweh (God is the Father)

The Holy Spirit is not given a name, as such, because he is the spirit of God himself.  So he is know as the Spirit of God or also the Spirit of the Father.  He has other titles such as the Counsellor etc.

Jesus’ name in Hebrew is Yahshua.  We are to call on his name.  His name means ‘Yahweh saves’.

You then quoted the following passage:

St. John 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.  

If I were to go to a foreign country and represent the Prime Minister/President of my home country I would have come in their name.  The words I spoke would be viewed as having come from the person I was representing and would be binding, I would have been given power to decide things for that person etc.

What Jesus is saying in this passage is that he has come to speak for his Father, he has comee with the power and authority of the Father because he comes in his name, and nobody believes him, welcomes him or accepts him; yet they happily believe those who have come in their own name speaking their own words, they like to listen to their own because they tell eachother what they want to hear – things of men, not of God.

This passage is not saying that the Father’s name is Jesus, He is speaking about the power and authority he has been given, this power and authority has been given to him because he comes to speak for the Father.

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Amen Ramblinrose.

[Ramblinrose]

Now, back to the baptism subject.

t8 I think I can grasp where you are coming from in regard to three baptisms, Father, Son & Holy Spirit.  Do you think the following verse supports that?

1 John 5:6-8
For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

When you are baptised you are immersed in water which is for the cleansing of sins (water – a cleansing from the Father) and also the accepting of a new covenant through the  death and resurrection of Jesus ( blood – a new creation through Jesus).  Then hands are placed on you to receive the Holy Spirit (spirit).

What do you think?

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Interesting that you should choose that scripture. When I wrote my last post I had an urge to look at that verse, but I was distracted and forgot about it. I only remembered it because you quoted it.

Yes it looks pretty sound from the outset. Baptized into the name of Yahweh, Yashua and the Holy Spirit. Baptized into each.

Even if this verse (Matt. 28:19) was talking about something else, it would still be true that we are baptized in water in the name of Jesus, we can receive the baptism of the Spirit and we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

1 John 5:6-8 seems to back this up nicely as you pointed out. Maybe 3 testimonies that are in agreement??
For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

I have quoted some verses that have to do with the water and the blood to shed more light on the subject at hand. I pray that God will give us revelation in Jesus Name.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 13:20
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[ 1:7 Or every] sin.

1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

[Proclaimer]

Just to give a wider view, I thought I would also quote
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

(One baptism??)

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with[ 3:11 Or in] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

(Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire??)

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[ 8:16 Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus.

(Baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, yet the Holy Spirit had not come upon them?)

Acts 10:47
"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

(Received the Holy Spirit, yet not been baptised in water yet??)

[Proclaimer]

Thought I would add this scripture as it mentions the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God is obviously the Father. Also the Holy Spirit and power are mentioned as being 2 different things.

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

[spiritualjourneyman]

I would just like to make a comment that I think may clear up some of the misinterpretation of the trinity that some may have.

When some trinitarians espouse that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one God, I think what they are saying is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three different aspects and roles of one God.

For instance, let’s take your typical human being, I’ll use myself as an example.  I am one human being, whose spirit inhabits one human body, HOWEVER, I have many different aspects of my personality and the role that I play in the life of other human beings.  I am both mother, daughter, sister, friend, ex-wife, co-worker, etc ….  Becuase of the ever-changing nature of my existence as a human being (other people in my life or myself may die, I may change jobs, get divorced, get re-married – hopefully, , etc…), many, if not most, of my personality aspects and life roles will change, but I am still considered to be ONE human being in the flesh or one spirit after death.

However, because my spirit is from God and I choose to acknowledge that, I will ALWAYS be a child of God.  That is one role or aspect of my personality that will never change, just as the aspects and roles of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the ONE GOD will never change.

Perhaps this would clear up some of the seeming contradictions that the Bible has when addressing the issue of the trinity.  Perhaps not.  This would be my interpretation, however accurate or inaccurate.

[echad]

Hello everyone, I apologize ahead of time if some of the points here have already been made, but I thought I’d include those that were in what I think is the solution to Mt.28:19…

1) The text reads – "Baptizing them in the NAME of…" not "names" plural.

2) Father/Son/Holy Ghost are TERMS, not personal names.

3) As was pointed out, the Apostles baptized in the name (singular) of Jesus, so that is obviously how they interpretted Mt.28:19.

So it is clear, at least, that only one formal/personal name is being referred to in the "formula".

4) God’s name is Yahweh. (our pronunciation)

5) Yahshua is a derivation of, and INCLUDES the name of God. (YAH-shua)

The reason that we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus (Yahshua), and not simply into the name of Yahweh (the NAME of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit) is because Yahshua is the name of the "MEDIATOR between God and men" and we cannot be reconciled to God apart from the "mediator". We can’t be reconciled directly to God without Jesus, but IN Jesus (and in his name, which includes "YAH") we are. ("He who has the Son has the Father ALSO")

[echad]

Sorry…the "winky faces" were supposed to be parenthesis, but I can’t get the edit to work?

[Proclaimer]

Quote

Quote: from echad on 9:56 pm on Nov. 23, 2002 Sorry…the "winky faces" were supposed to be parenthesis, but I can’t get the edit to work?

Yeah, Ive tried to fix this problem, but I haven’t figired out what the problem is. In the meantime you should choose the preview the post before posting option just above the submit button.

[Archieve]

Ramblinrose,

Jesus is the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

Who is The Father? God

Who is The Son? Jesus

Who is The Holy Ghost? God’s Spirit

Ehpesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,  

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

God has many names and Jesus is one of them.

Love,

Archieve  

[Archieve]

Ramblinrose,

Jesus is the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.

Who is The Father? God

Who is The Son? Jesus

Who is The Holy Ghost? God’s Spirit

Ehpesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,  

Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

God has many names and Jesus is one of them.

Love,

Archieve  

[Ramblinrose]

Archieve

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Paul is bowing his knee to the Father (God) and to clarify that you understand which father he is referring to he makes it clear by stating it is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ.  The whole family in heaven and earth is named from the Father.

If I were to take the referring section out the sentence would still make full sense (as follows)

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named

Everything comes from the Father (God).

God’s name is YAHWEH (God is the Father)
Our Lord, who is the Son of God, is Jesus (Yahshua)

Exodus 3:15  And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YAHWEH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Jeremiah 16:21  Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is YAHWEH

5  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36  For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, YAHWEH  said to my Lord (Jesus), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37  David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

God Bless

[Author]

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