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Quote (Human @ Jan. 07 2005,08:54) I also agree with Adam's view on Luke 23:43. “today you will be with me in Paradise” just does not fit into the rest of the Bible and especially when thinking about the ressurection. However, I have a slightly different understanding of the term “Kingdom of GOD”. I think it has two parts – the earthly part called Paradise, and the heavenly part where Jesus and the kings-priests are that rule over the earth.
Greeting 'Human'
The Kingdom of GOD is and will be one complete whole.
It will be a literal kingdom upon this literal earth with the King Messiah reigning upon a literal throne, from its capital city: the literal city of Jerusalem, the city of the great King.There's really no heavenly part as such.
The Kingdom of GOD is the Kingdom OF Heaven not the Kingdom IN Heaven. It will come from Heaven i.e. come from GOD to the earth. It will come at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.Christ will literally return and he will descend to this earth.
He will not do a U-turn. It is the saints that will do a U-turn.
That is, they shall be caught up to meet Christ in the air.
Then descend with him, whereupon, Christ shall reign with the saints upon the earth(Rev 5:9-10) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(epi ge means “On the Earth”
As a sidenote, even in the JW's NWT Bible; these Greek words are always translated on the earth except for Rev 5.10, where it is transl. over the earth! Hmmm! This 'mistaken translation' is a product of their own teachings)(Dan 2:35) Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(Dan 2:44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(Dan 7:27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(Luke 19:11-12ff) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.Hence, because Christ was in the vicinity of the chosen capital city of the future Kingdom of GOD, Jerusalem; his disciples assumed that the KofG was to appear immediately.
All the prophets spoke of the KofG as a literal earthly Kingdom to be inaugurated by GOD through His Messiah.
They had no concept of the KofG being a Kingdom IN Heaven.
No. The KofG will be upon the earth!If you like, we can start a new thread and discuss this in more detail.
God's (Holy) spirit is God (who is a spirit)
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all those who in every place are calling on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours
They prayed to YeshuaHi Adam,
A very interesting view. This approach I have never heared before.
I assume then that you have a very good explanation of the following scriptures:
1 Corinth 15:
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.
45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit.
50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.1 Peter 3:18
Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation”
When Jesus' disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus responded by giving them a detailed description of that future time. It is a time marked by international wars, rising crime, deteriorating family life, disease epidemics, famines, and earthquakes. The presence of Jesus is not visible because he is a spiritual being. His kingdom is first established in heaven – the place is prepared for the royal priesthood of saints – and only after that it will be established on earth.
Quote (VanRheea @ May 13 2002,16:10) I want to ask about John 1:1. You seem to say that there are versus that Christians always ignore, but that verse clearly states that Jesus is God. Please don't tell me that the Original Greek says differently because I have studied the Original Greek and it doesn't.
I respectfully disagree that John 1:1 says that Jesus is God…the scripture is speaking about Elohim & His word & how He foretold about “the light” which is His son in the beginningthe logos, word, is divine intellegence (wisdom) expressed & in the beginning God spoke His divine purpose for creation…this is not clearly defined but with understanding it is clear
in the beginning God (YVAH, Elohim, the Father) created the heavens & the earth & the earth was without form & void (this means that the recreation theory is incorrect…the earth was not once inhabited & then judged & made ruin…it was not yet formed & God's purpose for creating it had not been spoken…thus, there was God & His logos (word…the word was still in His mouth & had not been spoken…thus the word was not Jesus as taught)…God pre-existed alone & He alone created the heavens & the earth…God had not yet spoken His purpose for creating & He had not formed anything or established it by His law (logos)
darkness was upon the face of the deep (the word darkness in Gen 1:2 is a masculine noun…this is the mystery of God's purpose before He spoke)…the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (the word face is literal…God turned to look upon the waters with His face; He was moved by His Spirit…God is light & when He looks upon anything with His face it shines & what happens when light shines on water? God saw His express image, which was his purpose for creating the heavens & the earth)
God said, “light be” & there was light…this light is not the sun or the moon because they were made on day 4…this light is God's express image & the brightness of His glory, the beloved son…the light was not created…it was in God & He breathed it out of His spirit…the Spirit of God is His breath & when He breathes out a word, it is done…the light was the anointing set apart for His beloved son who He predestined to be begotten
all things were created by that light & for that light, which is the anointing/illumination that belonged exclusively for His only begotten son who He foresaw to come…everything God made & formed was made by the light which was the anointing of the Son & for the light, which was set apart for the son
when Jesus was begotten the word that God spoke in the beginning, “light be”, was made flesh…Jesus is the anointed ONE…he was the light, the illumination of God's glory, & God's express image…express (logos) image (form), thus God's expression in flesh…Jesus was the purpose for the creation of all things & he is hier of all creation…all things were made “for” him by the anointing/light that was his from the beginning…even Adam was made for Messiah
all flesh belongs to Messiah as well as the heavens & the earth & he came to his own & was not recieved, but as many as recieve him he gives them power to become the sons of God
peace & blessings in His name
Quote (Human @ Jan. 07 2005,23:53) Hi Adam, A very interesting view. This approach I have never heared before.
I assume then that you have a very good explanation of the following scriptures:
1 Corinth 15:
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body.
45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit.
50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.1 Peter 3:18
Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation”
When Jesus' disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” Jesus responded by giving them a detailed description of that future time. It is a time marked by international wars, rising crime, deteriorating family life, disease epidemics, famines, and earthquakes. The presence of Jesus is not visible because he is a spiritual being. His kingdom is first established in heaven – the place is prepared for the royal priesthood of saints – and only after that it will be established on earth.
hi humanyou are saying that Jesus is a spirit instead of flesh without exactly saying it, I think
the same flesh body that was in the tomb for 3 days was raised…it never saw corruption…that same flesh body is seated in heaven on the right hand of God in glory
amen, so be it
blessings & peace in his name
Quote (Human @ Jan. 07 2005,08:54) I also agree with Adam's view on Luke 23:43. “today you will be with me in Paradise” just does not fit into the rest of the Bible and especially when thinking about the ressurection. However, I have a slightly different understanding of the term “Kingdom of GOD”. I think it has two parts – the earthly part called Paradise, and the heavenly part where Jesus and the kings-priests are that rule over the earth.
hi humanI believe the kingdom of God is His governing, whether in the earth, above the earth or under the earth…all is subject to God's law (His kingdom)
one scripture says “the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy & peace in the Holy ghost”…if we honor God by willingly giving ourselves to Him as our creator & being obedient to His commands we will enjoy the riches of His kingdom
Jesus is king of God's kingdom & if we know & love him we are made kings & priests of which he is king of kings
blessings & peace in his name
Hi liljon,
1Cor 1.2
” to the church of God which is at Corinth,to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints BY CALLING ,with all who in every place CALL upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”
We are called and chosen,we call Jesus our Saviour.
But
we do not pray to him if we are in him do we?Hi Dora,
I think of Jesus as the light that came into the world[jn1]to dispel the darkness. The prince of darkness ruled over the kingdom of darkness. The father of lies ruled over the kingdom of lies.
Jesus is the Way the truth and the life.The light is truth.
The word is truth.
The logos is truth.
The truth exposed the lies.
The light expelled the darkness.The logos is also the bread that came from heaven.
He is the life.
He who eats of this bread will live forever.
Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Those that obey God love the soul food that is the word of God and feed avidly on it.Jesus is the way.
He said 'follow me'
He died and was raised .
we must die in baptism and be raised by the Spirit.What do you think?
Hi liljon,
So you think that because Stephen, as he died, said
“Lord Jesus receive my spirit”
that is a scripturally sound basis for all christians to pray to Jesus?
What is prayer? Worship, commitment, requests? All the elements of prayer are in the Our Father and true prayer is towards God.
Jesus said
“Pray then in this way 'Our Father, who is in heaven…”Stephen's cry was different. It was a reminder to the man he would have known and a public witness of his faith.There is no evidence in the book of Acts that prayer to Jesus was any part of their worship or behaviour.
Even if they did that would not make Jesus equal with God or part of any trinity would it?hi ,
In the time after he was resurrected and before he was taken up Jesus was seen by more than 500 people and his form was as one of us.
But the only record of his appearance after that time that I can recall was when Paul was en route to Damascus
Acts 26.13
“at midday ,O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighte r than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. And when we had all fallen to the grounfd, I heard a voicesaying to me in a hebrew dialect'Saul,Saul. Why are you persecuting me?.'.”
So the appearance of Jesus in Glory was similar to those of His Father. No visible body , not on earth. Only light , power and a voice.
Yet Jesus also said
“Where 2 or 3 of you have gathered together in my Name ,I am there in your midst” Mt 18.20
” I will not leave you as orphans ;I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see me but you will see me ;because I live”
So Jesus is among us in spirit, not body. Visible only by faith .
What do others think?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,20:50) Hi liljon,
1Cor 1.2
” to the church of God which is at Corinth,to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints BY CALLING ,with all who in every place CALL upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”
We are called and chosen,we call Jesus our Saviour.
But
we do not pray to him if we are in him do we?
I'm new to this forum, but was invited by Dora. I have a web site called The Bible Answer Stand Ministry @ http://www.bibleanswerstand.orgRegarding prayer and who we are commanded to pray to, Jesus said to pray TO the Father. All of Paul's epistles open with an acknowledgment of the Father as Supreme. 1 Timothy 2:5 says the MAN Christ Jesus is the only, “mediator,” between God & man; a mediator is a go-between or an advocate.
Therefore, when Stephen cried out to Jesus as he was being stoned to death, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” he is doing so with regard to Jesus' mediatorship, not as prayer. This is confirmed by the CONTEXT of Acts chapter seven, which also says Stephen looked and saw Jesus standing at the Father's right hand.
Acts 7:55-60 But being full of the Holy Spirit, Stephen gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58 And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And having said this, he fell asleep.
It's important to note that Stephen himself says he saw, the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” He clearly differentiates between God and Jesus for a reason, and this is proof enough that he is not “praying” to Jesus, but rather, calling upon him as his advocate, or parkletos, asking for his intercession in this time of crisis. Nowhere in scripture do you find any precedent for praying to the son of man.
Just a few comments for consideration. God bless you guys. Craigo (Craigo is my nickname)
Welcome Craig,
Bless you for your comments.Very helpful.
Of course the role of Mediator is also seen in 1Jn 2.1.
But to me it reads that Jesus does this work on our behalf any way . We do not approach him to be our advocate do we?
It is a pleasant change from the accuser of the brethren reminding God of our failures to have an advocate instead.Hi Dora,
Do you think that we are still under the OT Law in the Kingdom of God or under the Law of Christ?Psalm 31 5 Into Your hands I commit my spirit; You have redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.
Acts 9
12 And he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, in order that he might see again.”13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many wicked things he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem;
14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who are calling on Your name.”
Joel 2:32 says whoever calls on name of YHVH will be savedHi liljon,
Psalm 31 is a prophetic scripture. It speaks of Yeshua and the summary of his mission on earth.
His life is approaching it's human end and he is on the cross.He has suffered emotional and physical pain and rejection. His soul is troubled, his body wasted and weak. He has become sin for us and feels the separation from the Father but pleads according to faith and hope for the promises of the Father to be fulfilled.
His enemy,Satan, is foolishly destroying the body of Jesus but Jesus will not be defeated as he will still live in the spirit.The vessel is broken but he has the living water flowing up to eternal life.
He quotes the Psalm as he dies and the veil is torn.The Lord appeared to Ananias in a vision and Ananias was able to discuss Paul's conversion with him. That is not prayer or worship is it?
Jl 2.28 describes the endtimes which are not yet fulfilled. We have yet to see the changes on the earth and is the sun and moon that fully usher in those times as Jesus told us in Mt 24.29f -just prior to his return. Then those who just call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Hi Human,
Where did you derive your view of Paradise as earth from?The Kingdom of God or heaven only reaches it's complete fulfillment at the end of the millenial reign and the end of time when Yeshua hands over the restored earth to the Father[1 Cor 15].
Of course if you believe that the book of Revelation is only signs and symbols, as you say in another post, perhaps you do not believe about the millenial kingdom and every other treasure that Revelation shows us ?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,21:41) Hi Dora,
Do you think that we are still under the OT Law in the Kingdom of God or under the Law of Christ?
my dear brother, the kingdom of God never changes…it is the Spirit of our Father & our God, YVAH…you confuse the law with the kingdom…the kingdom is not the law…it is God's presence, His SpiritHi Dora
“all is subject to God's law[his kingdom]” is what you said . What did you mean?
PS if you get a private message check your messenger upper R screen. Bless you.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,04:58) Hi Dora
“all is subject to God's law[his kingdom]” is what you said . What did you mean?
PS if you get a private message check your messenger upper R screen. Bless you.
the law of Moses is not the law of God…God gave the law to Moses to magnify sin & separate unto Himself a people & make Himself known in the earththe law of Messiah is love…it is written in the heart, but the heart must be made new & it must be kept from becoming hardened by the cares of life, the lusts of the world, & pride…even after the heart has been made new it can be corrupted…following Jesus' teaching (doctrine) keeps us from corruption & gives us life, but only if we abide in him…we cant begin in him & then separate from his ways…only if we abide are we part of him…he gives an analogy of this in John 14, where he refers to himself as the vine
only as the heart remains pure can we be governed by God's spirit, which is love…the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy, & peace in the Holy Ghost
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