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Jesus was worshipped but did not seek to be worshipped. He did not give any men instructions to worship any God but the Father and he reiterated the first commandment as the most important.
He came to enable all men to be able come near to his Father directly in prayer for the first time in history.
In his death the veil of the temple was torn in two so that all can approach the Father now with their bodies washed in clean water and our hearts sprinked clean from an evil conscience. Jesus told us to pray to “Our Father”
He said the Father wanted true worshippers to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.liljon
I suggest that you read previous posts because you have stated quite a few things that have already been dealt with in previous posts. You should really read it first instead of repeating what is old ground.
Now you referred to Exodus 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:1-3).
But Trinitarians ignore one important obvious fact:
God Almighty, the God whom Israel accepted here in Exodus 20:1-3 was not the Trinity, and these Israelites were told to have no other gods so clearly Trinitarians break God's commandment.
Do you wish to argue with this and ignore the context. It would be foolish and deceitful to claim that Israel accepted the Trinity in Exodus 20:1-3 wouldn't it?
Trinitarians falsely claim that the Bible teaches that God is 3 person but it does not. The Bible teaches this: although there are many things called gods only one being is God of all including Christ. He is the Father and no other.
The one true God of Christ and his brothers is not the Trinity but the Father. God himself has no brothers.
There is only one person who is the only unbegotten God. Christ is not the one unbegotten God. Christ was begotten by this God.
To help your understanding consider this:
Christians bear the name of Christ yet they are not Christ himself. Yet Christ is IN true Christians. Similarly, the Bible teaches that God is IN Christ, and that Christ bears the name of his God, acting as his agent. It does not teach that he is God Almighty his God. Regarding Christ it is written:
'He will stand and feed his flock with the power of YHWH with the majesty of the name of his God.' (Micah 5:4)
Christ said this to his enemies:
'As for human approval, this means nothing to me. Besides, I know you too well: you have no love of God in you. I have come in my Fathers name and your refuse to accept me; if someone else comes in his own name you will accept him. (John 5:41-43)
liljon
There is one God Almighty, the unbegotten God. Is Christ the one unbegotten God?
Hi MOS,
Excellent post.
The word “before” in Ex 20 -does it mean “above” or “in front of” or “in my presence?”It seems to have so many meanings in the Hebrew. What do you think?To liljon,
Quote (liljon @ Dec. 31 2004,15:22) Jesus was worshipped
Jesus was never worshipped as the Almighty God. He was worshipped/honoured as the son of God, the Messiah of God and the Lamb of God. E.g. I can honour Paul the Apostle for who he is. I may even bow my head in his presence to show my honour, but I would never be so stupid as to worship him as God.Revelation 5:13-14
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,1 Peter 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.So if Jesus is the Almighty God, then it looks like there are 2 Almighty Gods that are worshipped and one of them is on the right hand-side of the other.
But if you read these and other verses carefully and with an open heart toward God, you will see that there is indeed 1 God and that God is worshipped as the Almighty God. You will also notice that this God has a son and that this son died for us, so that we too can become sons. Jesus calls us brethren (brothers), but we should call no one Father but our Father in Heaven. So If Jesus is equal to God then can we call God our brother? Of course not. Such a notion is vanity and an insult to the eternal God.
God did not die for our sins. God cannot die. The Devil would love you to believe that. True faith recognises who Jesus is. He is the Christ and the Son of God. This is what Jesus built his Church/Body on. It is this truth that is under attack with doctrines like the Trinity, but the gates of hell will not prevail.
Even the Father declared this truth with his own words. “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased”.
Who are we to philosophy against God's precious truth?
God has a son and the son considers his Father as his God and our God. Why should we disagree with the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles who taught us this?
Hi liljon,
Sorry but where did the apostles teach that the Son of God was the Father himself-I presume that is what you mean by God. We all know Jesus had godly power and great glory prior to his human birth but he was only a reflection of the Father.I read through those beautiful scriptures but could not see that statement written or any suggestion that the apostles thought Jesus was the Father.
Please can you clarify your statement.
Do you accept Jesus is the Son of God?
To, liljon
If you understand that all good things come from God and if you understand that God delegates practically everything that is his will (within humanity at least), then you can understand that Emanual (God is with us), means that God was inside Christ redeeming the world back to himself as opposed to Christ being that God.
Just as Christians have come in the name of Christ so the son has come in the name of God, YHWH. God's name is in Christ's name. Yahweh, YHWH -> Yahshua, Yehshua.
If you can understand that God is invisible and that he has Christ as his representitive, then you will know that the invisible God manifests himself inside his people. But in Christ God is able to manifest himself fully as Jesus is the Glory and Wisdom of God and the firstborn son. Jesus had a body while he was on earth and has a body in Heaven. He is visible. But God is invisible and is Spirit.
It's like light (glory). Light passes through a prism and the white light is reflected into all it's colours. Christ radiates the invisible God to us and reflects his character and love. But just as the light is not the prism so it is that Christ is not YHWH. Rather Christ is Yahshua, his son. Christ was born from this one true God, so yes he has God's nature. This is what we must believe in order to have true faith. That Jesus/Yahshua is the Christ and the Son of God. This is what we need to accept.
This is also why Jesus said, “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. He wasn't saying that he himself is the Father, but that you cannot see the Father except he is manifest in his son. For no man can see God and no one has ever seen God. We can only see his glory or those who God has chosen to represent him.
Jesus is the mediator between man and God. He is unique in that he is neither God himself or just a man. He is the Logos and the Logos came from God in the beginning.
The Book of John is one of the clearest books that describe who Jesus is. Look at the reason why John wrote his book.
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.And now look at why Jesus is Lord.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”In other words all that Jesus is and has is because of his Father. Jesus Father is his God and our God and he became a father when he begat his son, for his son is the firstborn of/over all creation.
Hi Nick,
I didn't see your last post, but it is good to see that we practically said the same thing.
Unity in the Spirit is easy when we believe the same message that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God.
Praise God that he sent his son into the world for us.
This is truly a very good article on the Trinity doctrine. Thanks to the authors and I personally can agree with most of the ideas in it (though not completely!). I respect that the authors are using Bible as the primary source of the truth. So do I. I believe that the truth is in God's inspired scriptures, which is Bible. In my opinion, any religious doctrine that contradicts Bible is false.
I saw several posts on the issue that Jesus was “worshipped” by a blind man (John 9:38), his appostles (Luke 24:52), angels (Hebrews 1:6) etc. If we look into the original language (Koine Greek) then we can see that in all these places the word “worshipped” is used to translate the Greek word “proskuneo”, which actually can have a meaning “to do obeisance”.
I checked the KJV translation with Strongs definitions and here is what it says about the meaning of Greek word “proskuneo”.1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and
touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound
reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make
obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
3a1) to the Jewish high priests
3a2) to God
3a3) to Christ
3a4) to heavenly beings
3a5) to demonsAs you can see, this word can be applied also to humans and even demons. In the preceding scriptures it only means that they showed deep respect to Jesus but that does not imply that they worshipped Jesus as the Only True God, Jesus' Father.
If we were to worship Jesus then clearly Jesus would have given such a command to us but the Bible states clearly the opposite.
Jesus himself said that we must worship only God YHWH, his Father – Matthew 4:10. And Jesus himself prayed to his Father.thx for the encouragement Human.
Also thx for the insight regarding worship and worship toward Christ.
Perhaps you could point out parts of the Trinity writing that need to be changed or corrected. It has been a WIP for quite a while now and there is always room for improvement.
Todays version has changed little from the original in message. But lots of things have been added and I am sure that some of those things need editing.
Hi t8,
Amen.
I think there is a deeper message in 1 Cor 15.40f
“There are heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies .The spendour of the heavenly bodies in one thing, that of the earthly another. The sun has a spendour of it's own, so has the moon and the stars have theirs. Even among the stars one differs from itself in brightness”We know the stars can symbolise the angels. I know the moon is a symbol of the Messiah to the jews. The moon reflects the sun to earth and has a certain splendour but it pales in comparison to the power and splendour of the sun, who may symbolise the Father.
Yet in another light the sun is only a creation of God. We respect the Sun but who respects it's maker? Shouldn't our fear of God be the basis of what all here are doing -honestly trying to grasp God's ways through what He has shown us?
True.
If our motive was to know God more and to learn wisdom and truth, then we could all move on in our journey. But the god of this age hinders us in every way possible and he uses many people to try and place stumbling blocks before us.
However if we are of God we will listen to him and that is enough for us.
Thanks Nick Hassan and t8 for the warm welcoming!
I found this site only yesterday when I was searching Internet for the Trinity doctrine. I read the article and it surprised me because it was based only on what the Bible says and also because it stated also mainly what I think about the Trinity. I was also pleasently surprised when I read about God's personal name YHWH in the article. It is such a shame that most of our-day Bible translations have replaced this with “Lord” or “God”. And it is an important point, because the Bible puts a very strong emphasis on the importance of God's name (Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Psalms 83:19, Psalms 135:13, Matthew 6:9).
I study Bible quite a lot and it is the main authority to me regarding God and his purpose towards this world.
Thanks for inviting me to check and suggest any improvements in the article!
OK, here are the two points from the article that I could think straight away (I will try to check it again and maybe come up with something more):– Somewhere it stated that Jesus is now in heaven in a physical/visible form (based on book of Revelation). I cannot agree with that because the book of Revelation is full of symbols and we cannot take them literally. Otherwise, we can also easily conclude that Jesus is also in a form of a Lamb (Rev 6:1) or that YHWH God himself is visible (Rev 4:2-3). The Bible clearly states in what form Jesus was ressurected – 1 Peter 3:18. Of course, Jesus materialized on several occasions in a temporary physical form but that was just to show to his disciples that he has been ressurected by God. This was not a permanent physical body, because then Jesus could not suddenly appear in a room whose doors are locked – John 20:19.
– Somewhere the article stated that it is ok that we worship Jesus, because Jesus does not take credit for this and passes this worshipping to his Father. I cannot agree with this because we must perform the act of worshipping not towards Jesus but rather THROUGH him towards God. Jesus is the door to God and if we concentrate on the door then we miss what is behind it. Here is what Jesus said regarding the way we must worship God YHWH – John 14:6, John 15:16.
I will try to look again at the article and maybe at other articles in this site
Hi H,
God reveals things to men in many ways.
Acts 2.18
” …Your young men shall see visions and your old men dream dreams”
The angel appeared to Mary and the shepherds but appeared to Joseph in a dream. What is revealed in vision form is different and may be symbolic but what is seen is real I would have thought. God's glory is seen in visions[Is 6 and Rev]but never seen by men.
Jesus had an imperishable heavenly body given to him after his resurrection[1 Cor 15.48-9]which we will also have [v53]. But the resurrection body of Jesus seen on earth was the natural body as it still had the holes in it from his crucifixion as Thomas discovered.
What do you think?Hi liljon,
Looking at Is 8.14. We know that the “stumbling stone” is Jesus as shown in Rom 9.33 and 1Peter 2 6f..
Looking at Is 28.16
'Therefore, thus says the Lord God ;see I am laying a stone in Zion, a stone that has been tested, a precious cornerstone as a sure foundation;he who puts faith in it shall not be shaken”
So there are two here.
Who is the stone ? Jesus.
Who is laying the stone? the Father.
So going back to Is 8.14 God has concealed that verse 13 applies to Him and verse 14-16 applies to Jesus.
Ps 118 confirms that it is the work of God, done in Jesus.
That is God's way.I will need more from you why the other verses cause confusion please.
Hi Nick,
That is of course a very logical conclusion. But try to look a bit deeper in other events that happened around that time. If it was the same Jesus' body – then why did his followers not recognize him? – John 20:14-15. How could he appear in a locked room – 20:19 ? How could he suddenly disappear – Luke 24:31 ?
There are several records in Bible when spiritual creatures could temporarely materialize in physical bodies – Genesis 18, and also Genesis 32:25.
Also if Jesus had the same physical body after resurrection – would his body be actually given as a sacrifice for our sins? – 1 Corinth 11:24. It is like paying a debt and then taking that money back again. And how could a physical body go to heaven?
Yes, Jesus had scars and nail prints on his body when he appeared to his disciples. But think about the opposite – would anyone believe that it is Jesus if he did not have those prints? Thomas clearly would not. The Bible talks about the resurrected Jesus as appearing on several occasions rather than being with disciples all the time.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2005,18:49) Hi liljon,
Looking at Is 8.14. We know that the “stumbling stone” is Jesus as shown in Rom 9.33 and 1Peter 2 6f..
Looking at Is 28.16
'Therefore, thus says the Lord God ;see I am laying a stone in Zion, a stone that has been tested, a precious cornerstone as a sure foundation;he who puts faith in it shall not be shaken”
So there are two here.
Who is the stone ? Jesus.
Who is laying the stone? the Father.
So going back to Is 8.14 God has concealed that verse 13 applies to Him and verse 14-16 applies to Jesus.
Ps 118 confirms that it is the work of God, done in Jesus.
That is God's way.I will need more from you why the other verses cause confusion please.
Hi Nick, T8, … and Human,You see God our Father uses Christ to carry out his will, as a result God and Christ are both a stumbling stone to the unbeliever i.e. an obstacle. After all, Christ said 'anyone who rejects me rejects the one who sent me'. He who rejects the keystone rejects the one who put it there, and men stumble over both.
liljon, you have ignored the context. Nick you are right that the Father, God, has laid a keystone which is Christ.
Human,
You are quite right regarding the word 'worship'. The Greek word that is translated as 'worship' has many different applications. Some Trinitarian translators translate the Greek word 'proskenuo' as 'worship' because they believe that Christ is God Almighty. Yet the word 'proskenuo' is applied to others. But very often Trinitarians do not tell people this fact. Instead, they deceive people into thinking that Christ was worshipped as God. There are many other instances where Trinitarian hide the truth. It
Nick,
On the subject of Exodus 20. The Israelites were to worship no other God 'besides' the Father, the God known to them.
It is true to say that there are Biblical papyri which do not support verses that Trinitarian prefer to include in their Translations. The selection process used by Trinitarian scholars is a bit like 'pick and mix' e.g. papyus A might say that Christ is God in 2 Peter but not agree with papyrus B. Papyrus C on the other hand might call Christ God in Titus but not in 2 Peter. A new Greek Text is then produced often referred to as 'the original Greek' which has opted to use the reading of 2 Peter found in papyrus A and the reading of Titus that is found in papyrus C and ignore papyrus D altogether. This 'original Greek text' then forms the basis of some modern translations in which you find that it says that Christ is God in Titus and 2 Peter. The resulting 'Greek Text' does not agree with a specific manuscript. The Old Testament manuscripts were not subjected to such widespread changes.
'The phrase 'the original Greek' used by Trinitarian scholars is misleading since the original Bible manuscripts do not exist. It really refers to the original language in which the New Testament was written.
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