The Trinity Doctrine

[Proclaimer]

Hi James,

You might want to read the following writing:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer09.htm

[Proclaimer]

To James,

It sounds to me like you are saying that the Father became flesh and dwelt among us. But it was the Logos that became flesh and we know that the Logos who partook of the flesh is Christ.

To deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh proves that one is of the antichrist spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi James,
Did the Father die on the cross?

If you say He did then who resurrected Him?

The bible says Jesus was resurrected by the Father.

Jesus taught us to pray to God.
“Our Father who art in heaven..”

[NickHassan]

Hi James,
Your doctrine then seems to deny the Son of God is the Christ and diminishes the Father and His glory.

1Jn 2.22 says” Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father ;the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
John also warned that those with the antichrist spirit
“went out from us but they were really not of us ;for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us”
That is why he also warned us to test the spirits
“By this you know the Spirit of God;every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”
Do your teachings pass this test ?

[Anonymous]

Heb 1:1-10
Proves jesus to be God plus the whole book of Isaiah

[Proclaimer]

Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
  “You are my Son;
      today I have become your Father”? Or again,
  “I will be his Father,
      and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
  “Let all God's angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
  “He makes his angels winds,
      his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
  “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
      and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
   9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
      therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
      by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
  “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
      and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Read it closely Lil Jon it says the following:

[NickHassan]

Hi Lil jon,
Welcome to the site. The book of Isaiah is a biggie so I will try to find what you might mean.
Starting from Is 40 we see the promise of a saviour and there is the prophecy about John the Baptist preparing the way.Ok.
V10″ Here comes with power the Lord God who rules by His strong arm”
So does this mean God is leaving heaven to visit earth? No that is the “oneness heresy”. So does it mean Jesus is coming and he is our God? Well God is 'one' as the OT tells us in many places and that is quoted by Jesus. God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. Yes Jesus is god to angels and natural men but the Father is his God[as in the Heb quote].He has godly nature but is not THE God of the bible.
So what does it mean?
Well it is shown in
Is ch 42.”Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one with whom I am pleased [Where did we hear that before?]upon whom I have put my Spirit”
So Jesus is sent to do the saving work of His Father and he is filled with the Father's Spirit [at the time he is filled with the Spirit the Father speaks those words above] so he reveals the nature and power of His Father on earth.
Jesus, the Son of God, is the agent of God's work and he comes to bring salvation and to teach all to worship, not himself or any trinity, but the Father, his God and our God.
Does this make sense?
Do you have any other examples in Isaiah to discuss because there is so much and it would take a while?

[Anonymous]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2004,08:02)

Yes I think that all the Trinitarians took off when they realised that their doctrine is indeed questionable. They like to argue their beliefs with those who are not able to defend themselves. But that is not true here. I dare say that this won't be the last. I do expect to hear from some Trinitarian teachers who haven't read part or all of this discussion nor the Trinity writing, who will then have the audacity to post some lame argument about why the trinity is correct either by taking some scriptures out of context or quoting a scripture that is not really scripture because it an addition. These kind of posts usually take about 4 minutes to write from 2 hours of accumulated life time experience dealing with the subject. Even with such credentials they are sure in their own mind that they are right and write posts that pretty much say are you guys nuts for not believing in the unquestionable trinity doctrine? Then they set about to try and enlighten us with arguments that we have heard 100 times before but do not line up with scripture.

This is pure arrogance. You should be ashamed.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
This site welcomes anyone who wishes to discuss any church doctrine. That includes the trinity doctrine which has held an important place in traditional teaching since about 300 ad.

Most have never questioned these teachings and it is a bit of a shock to find some here not quite so convinced about it.
This site checks out doctrines against the bible because we believe that church doctrine is based on the bible.
The bible is the source of revealed truth and is not owned by any denomination. We believe it is the duty of the church to preserve as best as is possible that revealed truth and so are not afraid to ask questions and find answers.
The bible is carefully laid out by the Holy Spirit writing through men and the things God regards as important are made plain and repeated many times in both the New and the Old Testament.
This is because the messages of God are written for children and not theologians.That is why we test the teachings of men against that of God. Some churchgoers will find that difficult but the church too belongs to God so I encourage you to dare to do so.
If you will be patient with me can we examine the trinity doctrine then according to the Word of God?

Is it clearly revealed in the OT-No
Is it clearly revealed in the NT-No

So whatever else we can say about it the doctrine is not clearly revealed so it cannot be vital to God.

Some will say but if you read between the lines there are three.
Well the Word says God is ONE in both the NT and OT.
It says that the Father is enthroned in heaven as you will remember from the “Our Father”
It also says that Jesus is the Son of God. Now the Son cannot be the Father because the Son was begotten from the Father.
Yes there is also the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit sent from heaven to fill Jesus just as the prophets and christians can be filled too by the Spirit of God.

So where does that leave the trinity?
It is a derived concept that men developed to try to understand God. It teaches three equal Gods in one.

Now we know Jesus called the Father his God so they are not equal surely. We know the Father knows more than Jesus as only He knows the day of Jesus return. And we know the Father sent Jesus and raised him from the dead. So equality is not apparent there either. We also know Jesus taught his followers to worship the Father and not himself or the Holy Spirit-as trinity worship would have you do.

Sorry but it doesn't seem to stack up as scripturally sound to me but I will leave you to sort that issue for yourself but any feedback would be welcome.

We are all students here trying to find truth.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guest @ Dec. 04 2004,22:53)

This is pure arrogance. You should be ashamed.

Ashamed to search the scriptures daily to see if it is so?
Ashamed to deny doctrines of men?
Ashamed to believe the words of Christ and the Apostles?

No, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

Do you know what the gospel is?
Do you know what the foundation of true faith is?

[Anonymous]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 04 2004,05:16)

Quote (Guest @ Dec. 04 2004,22:53) This is pure arrogance. You should be ashamed. Ashamed to search the scriptures daily to see if it is so? Ashamed to deny doctrines of men? Ashamed to believe the words of Christ and the Apostles? No, I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Do you know what the gospel is? Do you know what the foundation of true faith is?

No. Ashamed of your smug condescension and contempt of others. Where is the love of God in your post? If you strongly disagree with their beliefs and have full confidence in your own, then you should have a heart for them and deal gently with them. Instead you arrogantly denigrate. Shameful.

[Proclaimer]

If you read the whole discussion which I do not expect you to, you will see that many Trinitarians have been smug in their judgement. They post as if to say that we are not Christians or they think that we are completely ignorant of scripture. They then post lame posts that have already been discussed to great lengths and with careful consideration.

But the fact is that I do not judge them with the same judgement they pass on me. First of all I consider that belief in the Trinity doesn't exclude one from salvation. But I cannot say the same for their treatment with me. This is not true with all, but it is the consensus nevertheless. So if you condemn me then you condemn them all the more, and you also pass that measure of judgment to yourself for God to use when judging you.

Also if one does not always have time to take a gentle approach with all that written here. It is a forum after all and most post in a manner that wouldn't be acceptable if speaking to a person face to face. Most posts are straight to the point for times sake and for the readers sake. Try looking up the meaning of the word 'forum' and you will see that it is a place where points of view are discussed and argued to see their worth. This is not often the approach taken when talking with people face to face, but forums have their place and are a valuable service to all.

In saying this though I do consider myself to be patient as I have spent many an hour replying to people with my only motivation to help if possible. So I feel that I have been very dedicated to helping people where many just take off when their time is required of them.

I still believe that my statement was correct and that it truly reflected the truth of what has happened. I make no apology for the truth and I didn't condemn or judge anybody in particular. I made a truthful statement and who am I if people put themselves into the category that I spoke of.

Also I may seem harsh with some of the things that I say. But then again as the apostles have done, so have I. Their treatment of those who preached another gospel or built on a false foundation was not one of acceptance or even tolerance. This could also be seen as smug and condescending too. But it depends on the heart of the person does it not? If one gives truth the repsect it deserves then offence will come to those who are not of the truth or who haven't accepted certain truth.

Those that come here with a man-made creed as the foundation of their faith seem to come as 2 kinds of people from what I can see. Those who are willing to talk about it in order to teach or even learn (and I have great repect for these people) and those who come to teach their point of view only regardless of what others say. If those who teach the Trinity are given the light of scripture with regards to the true foundation of our faith and they ignore it and continue to teach their doctrine, then their judgement is all the more harsher. As it is written:

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I still believe that what I said is correct and true and your judgement of why I said it is your opinion and is a judgement that will be measured against you. But I will tell you my motivation and heart for writing it:

TRUTH and a knowledge that what I said will happen. I see it as no different to what Peter said in 2 Peter 2:1 above. It may not be nice or even respectful, but it is the truth and it has and will happen.

I post my quote again for the sake of those who are reading here:

Quote

Yes I think that all the Trinitarians took off when they realised that their doctrine is indeed questionable. They like to argue their beliefs with those who are not able to defend themselves. But that is not true here. I dare say that this won't be the last. I do expect to hear from some Trinitarian teachers who haven't read part or all of this discussion nor the Trinity writing, who will then have the audacity to post some lame argument about why the trinity is correct either by taking some scriptures out of context or quoting a scripture that is not really scripture because it an addition. These kind of posts usually take about 4 minutes to write from 2 hours of accumulated life time experience dealing with the subject. Even with such credentials they are sure in their own mind that they are right and write posts that pretty much say are you guys nuts for not believing in the unquestionable trinity doctrine? Then they set about to try and enlighten us with arguments that we have heard 100 times before but do not line up with scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If you saw someone walking towards a cliff would you not scream at them or tackle them to save them? Would that not be the most loving thing you could do?

We don't know much but what we do know is that God hates false teaching. Very few religious adults actually are still open minded and interested in learning anything about truth.

What you do is based on what you believe spiritually. If you believe your mailbox is a god then it is likely you will pray to it and worship it. It is unlikely to do you any good but you would be entirely within your rights to tell others to mind their own business.

What we are trying to do is discover as much as we can about the only real God from what is revealed in the bible and tell others so we can all be safer. We may not always be right but we are always honestly seeking the truth.

Can you understand?

[BrandonIke]

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

don't these quotes show the trinity? they use the term “Godhead.”

[NickHassan]

Hi Brandonike,
Welcome back. The word “Godhead” appears in the KJV and has been hijacked and made to appear as if it is speaking of a trinity God.It does not.

In the NASB the Collosians quote reads
” For in him all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form”
Now we know from Phil 2 that Jesus ,prior to his earthly visit
“existed in the form of God but emptied himself taking the form of a bond servant, and being made in the likeness of men”
So this does not speak of his own godliness or that of any trinity. Whose deity then ? The Father's. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

What it is saying is that Jesus was filled with the fulness of the Spirit of God. Who can argue about that?

The Rom 1 19-20 says “..for God made it evident to them for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse”
So what does the word “Godhead” mean here? The divine nature of the Father.

The KJV is used by some to confuse and support false doctrine because it's older words are misused and manipulated.

[messageofsalvation]

Quote (Guest @ Dec. 04 2004,03:53)

This is pure arrogance. You should be ashamed.

The guest who posted the quote above to T8 should first examine their own doctrine and whether or no they object to what is true.

I say to this person: have you never read this:

We demolish sophistries and the  arrogance that tries to resist the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:4)

Given that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine and not truth it encourages arrogance.  Why? Because people are taught to resist believing what is true. Such actions are arrogance on the part of Trinitarians especially when they continue to use arguments that have been shown to be deceitful. I would dearly love them to see the light of truth rather than run from it.

The Bible makes it quite clear that idolators will not enter the kingdom of God. It certainly does not say that all who worship the Father only as Almighty God are excluded from the kingdom. After all, faithful Israelites were clearly not Trinitarians.  But Trinitarians have been arrogant enough to condemn those who will not believe their deceitful teaching. I have shown in my previous posts that the Trinity is idolatry.

A careful examination of previous postings in this forum will benefit a genuine seeker of truth who will see examples of the spirit of truth pulling down deceitful arguments that Trinitarians have used to seduce people into believing a lie and how they have been shown to be not of God.

So who should really be ashamed  and who is arrogant?

I once knew a Trinitarian who said I was a very strong Christian after they had seen how I lived my life.  Now, when this person realised that I did not believe the Trinity and after I had shown that their Trinitarian arguments were deceitful. They then resorting to  falsely claiming that I was arrogant. Yet before then they said my character was exemplary. Sometimes when Trinitarians are made aware that their arguments are deceitful they resort to this kind of thing. It is arrogance that resists the knowledge of God.

If God sends his son who says 'eternal life is this: to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent', and men reject this to claim God is

1.  the Father plus the moon
OR
2.  the Father plus a person(s) who does not exist as God Almighty

it is all idolatry and arrogance that resists the truth.

[Proclaimer]

thx messageofsalvation,

I have found you to be a great support over the period of this discussion.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jesus came to tell people to worship God,
His Father,
Not himself or the Spirit or a trinity.

In the last 4 books of the bible the angel tells John twice to
” Worship God “

So nothing has changed from the first to the last. There is no new deity or trinity to be worshipped.

So what is other worship apart from worship of God?

Idolatry.

Revelation tells us that idolaters will be outside the gates of the new Jerusalem in the lake which burns with fire.

1Jn 5.21 ' Little children, guard yourself from idols.'

[Proclaimer]

If we think about it the very fact that the word trinity had to be invented outside of scripture just shows how unlikely that doctrine is. If the trinity doctrine were correct, then the bible should have a word to describe such an idea. And if it is the foundation of the churches as the denominational creeds say, then why doesn't it leap out of the pages of scripture?

Time and time again, the scriptures say that God is one, when the trinity doctrine says that God is three.

How obvious is the truth that God is one and how obvious is it being changed into a lie by those who say that God is three. Can such teachers be of God's Spirit, who deny and teach against the first commandment?

[messageofsalvation]

T8,

I thank God for your kind words. On the subject of your question:

Quote

Can such teachers be of God's Spirit, who deny and teach against the first commandment?

The apostle John's position is quite clear and stated with conviction:

'If anybody does not keep within the teaching of Christ but goes beyond it, he cannot have God with him: only those who keep to what he taught can have the Father and the Son with them. If anyone comes to you bringing a different doctrine, you must not receive him in your house or even give him a greeting.  To greet him would make you a partner in his wicked work. ' (2 John verses 9,10)

I mentioned in some of my previous posts that Trinitarians use the heresy of dividing Christ when dealing with the issue that God cannot die and Christ said  'my God, my God why have you forsaken me.'  I will share with you what God has been showing me.

I have discovered a reading of 1 John 4:2 that is in some early manuscripts and other church Father writings.

Every spirit that confesseth Jesus Christ came in the flesh is of God; and every spirit which separate Jesus Christ is not of God but is of antiChrist.  (1 John 4:2)

Trinitarian translators do not include that above reading in the footnote of Bibles yet it is  found in  some Bible manuscripts and some early church Father writings. One historian has even said that the above reading is the correct one and that the alternative reading was introduced by the heretics.

Given that Trinitarians use the heresy of separating Christ I think this is a serious issue that they would much rather avoid. After all, the Trinity doctrine is clearly shown up as being antichrist by dividing Christ to get round the fact that Christ died for sin and God cannot die. The doctrine of the Trinity is hindering people from being saved.  In the past there were many false doctrines that incoporate the heretical idea of separating Christ.

The apostle John defended the truth but did not greet false teachers who claimed to be Christian when he saw them. Of course, the apostles desired that these false teachers renounced their wicked ways.  

Those who teach men to break the first commandment do not have God in them.They cannot have God in them when they reject him and worship an idol.

Initially the apostle John makes it clear that  a true believer  is one who acknowledges that Christ came to this earth as a man.  However, in his later letter he found it necessary to add another key element that distinguishes a true Christian from a counterfeit one: they must not go beyond the teachings of Christ.  He was obviously having to address a growing problem of false teachers and counterfeit Christians in his day, and any misunderstanding people might have regarding what is acceptable.

The Trinity is not the teachings of Christ.

Love desires that every human being renounce evil and become sons of light but it does not compromise the truth.

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