The Trinity Doctrine

[Is 1:18]

Hi WIT, hope you're well.
Jesus
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1)

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. (John 1)

6 … although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7   but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8   Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Phil 2)

As for the Holy Spirit:
He has intelligence: The Spirit “knows” (1 Cor. 2:11). Rom. 8:27 refers to “the mind of the Spirit.” This mind is able to make judgments – a decision “seemed good” to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). These verses imply a distinct intelligence.

He has a will: 1 Cor. 12:11 says that the Spirit “determines” decisions, showing that the Spirit has a will.

He can speak: Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; etc.).  He even speaks in the first person (Acts 10:20, Acts 13:2). Only a person can say `I'.

He can be lied to (Acts 5:3), which indicates that the Spirit may be spoken to.

He can be tested (Acts 5:9).

He can be insulted (Heb. 10:29)

He can be blasphemed (Matt. 12:31)

He can be can be vexed (Isa. 63:10)

And grieved (Eph. 4:30)

He make intercession for us: (Rom. 8:26-27). Intercession implies not only receiving communication, but also communicating further on. It implies an intelligence, a concern, and a role.

Also consider John 16:

Quote

5″Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[1] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12″I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

If, by the Unitarian understanding, the Holy Spirit is ‘the Father’s spirit’ and God Himself is Spirit (Jn 4:24) then how is it that He will only speak what He hears? Does God, who is spirit, speak to His own Spirit? That’s illogical from every angle. Furthermore, notice how the Spirit is subservient to Jesus (He will bring glory to me) this goes against the whole NT theme of Jesus’ subservience to the Father. Curious.

Also notice that Jesus used the masculine form of parakletos; he did not consider it necessary to make the word neuter or to use neuter pronouns. In John 16:14, masculine pronouns are used even after the neuter pneuma is mentioned. It would have been easy to switch to neuter pronouns, but John did not.

Also, if God is spirit and The Holy Spirit is God’s spirit then why are they both mentioned together in grammatically parallel constructions, in the same verses? e.g:

“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Cor. 13:14).

“who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood” (1 Peter 1:2).

These can really only be explained if the Holy Spirit and God the Father are different persons
Take care

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jesus said I am the way the TRUTH and the life. Jn 14.6
No man owns truth.
No one can fully reveal the truth about God but the Holy Spirit.1 Jn 5.6. Jn 16 26.Jn 16.13.

The full meaning of salvation is revealed by Jesus in the story of the prodigal son-the story of you and I and what our Father has done for us when we realised we were sinners.We had arrogantly demanded our independance and even robbed Him by taking from Him what we did not yet own-our life and future-and thrown it all away.

Lk 15 .17f
” Coming to his senses at last he said. How many hired hands at my father's place have more than enough to eat ,while here I am starving! I will break away and return to my father and say to him.'Father, I have sinned against God and against you ;I no longer deserve to be called your son. Treat me like one of your hired hands' . With that he set off for his father's house. While he was still a long way off his father caught sight of him and was deeply moved. He ran out to meet him ,threw his arms around his neck and, and kissed him. The son said to him.
'Father, I have sinned against God and against you ;I no longer deserve to be called your son'
The father said to his servants
'Quick.Bring out the finest robe and put it on him .Put a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet. Take the fatted calf and kill it . Let us celebrate because this son of mine was dead and has come back to life. He was lost and he is found'
Then the celebration began.

That was not justice. That was love. Mercy triumphed over judgement. The father had every right to feel aggrieved at his son's behaviour but held no grudge.The son did not have to repay what he had stolen to regain the love of his family.The father did not wait at home and condemn and humiliate his son as he had every right to do. He humbled himself and ran along the road to greet him. The relationship had no changed between them at all as far as the father was concerned and he expressed his gratitude for the return of the son.The father immediately called for the finest robe. There is no finer robe than that worn by his beloved first son, Jesus and we too are covered with that robe.Our sin and filth is covered and we are hidden in Jesus. He calls for the ring of power, the Holy Spirit, to be placed on our finger giving us also the powers and authority of his kingdom. He retains his own ultimate authority but we assume the rights of a son.

That is our Father. That is His nature and love.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Thank you for the efforts made to expound your beliefs.
As far as your other comments go Unitarianism is a bizarre hotch potch. It varies from country to country and has a variety of doctrines that can include pagan religion.It is often associated with Universalism{'all are saved']and it can be similar to protestantism. I have no truck with them.

Perhaps you mean Oneness who believe the Father and the Son are the same and that is no my belief either.Perhaps you might clarify what you mean here.

The scriptures you quote are not hard to understand unless you have a trinity bias and it is much harder to question a belief that you have grown up with and 99% of churchgoers agree with. I hope you too can be patient and understand that we are just trying to search out truth .

The Father's throne is in heaven and he sends His Spirit to earth to fill the prophets, His Son Jesus and then the Body of Christ. Of course the Spirit is masculine as it is the Spirit of the Father.The Father does not speak TO his Spirit as you say but THROUGH His Spirit to us. The Spirit communicates also with the Father as there is separation as the Father is not on earth but Spirit.This separation does not occur in heaven as the Spirit is of the Father.The Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, so serves us as Jesus was served to show the nature and power of God to men.

[Is 1:18]

Hi NH,
A unitarian is essentially a christian who rejects the trinity. From dictionary.com:

unitarian
\U`ni*ta”ri*an\, n. [Cf. F. unitaire, unitairien, NL. unitarius. See Unity.] 1. (Theol.) One who denies the doctrine of the Trinity, believing that God exists only in one person; a unipersonalist; also, one of a denomination of Christians holding this belief.

As for Jn 16, perhaps i wasnt clear enough, i'll try and be as clear as I can. Here is the verse in question.

Quote

13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

If God the father is spirit and the Holy Spirit is spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit then the Holy Spirit must be the Father. If that's true then Spirit of God must speak only what He hears from Himself. He talks to Himself? Don't you find this a little hard to believe? He is also subservient to Jesus. Can you explain this?

These verses only make sense in a trinitarian framework.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 26 2004,06:00)

A unitarian is essentially a christian who rejects the trinity. From dictionary.com

Atheists also don't believe in the Trinity. So are they Unitarian?

Come on Is 1:18, I am sure that you have a mind that you can think with. Why are you enslaved by the words of men? You cannot see the forest for the trees. This is a very sad statement from you and reflects your state of character. I really expected better from you and I wonder about even discussing biblical matters with you.

We both know that it is shameful to cast pearls before the swine.

Did you not know that the Holy Spirit wasn't even part of the first creed. It was more to do with The Father and Son being God. The Holy Spirit was added in about 60 years later.

So there was a binity and then a trinity. But do you suppose that the first Creed (Nicene) was teaching unitarianism considering that they weren't teaching the Trinity?

You know with the amount of scripture that you have been shown, you should really know much better. But the type of man you want to be is decided by you alone and even I know that I cannot stop you once your mind is made up. It's your will after all.

I pray that God will bring true believers who not only respect the truth, but will have the courage to stand up for it and  die for it if necessary.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
If I say that The Lord God is ONE LORD I am in good company.
Jesus said in Mk 12.29 ” Hear O Israel. The Lord our God is Lord alone. Therefore you should love the Lord your God with all your heart ,with all your soul ,with all your mind and with all your strength”
The Jews knew what he was saying as he quoted the first and most important commandment. So much for the change of plan he was reputed to bring to man-worshipping a trinity.

The Holy Spirit teaches us and reminds us of the teachings of Jesus.[Jn 16.14-15,15.26] But even the teachings and words of Jesus are not his but what he has received from the Father.[Jn 3.34, Jn 12. 49-50,Jn 14. 10] So the Holy Spirit continues in us what was done in Jesus, speaking the words and of the Father and communicating our needs to Him. The Father remains in Heaven and the Spirit channels his grace to us in Jesus.

Please feel free to correct me those who know better as I am in need of more understanding.

[messageofsalvation]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 25 2004,09:07)

If, by the Unitarian understanding, the Holy Spirit is ‘the Father’s spirit’ and God Himself is Spirit (Jn 4:24) then how is it that He will only speak what He hears? Does God, who is spirit, speak to His own Spirit? That’s illogical from every angle. Furthermore, notice how the Spirit is subservient to Jesus (He will bring glory to me) this goes against the whole NT theme of Jesus’ subservience to the Father. Curious.

Is 1:18,

Digest the fact that earliest manuscripts in Greek do not refer to the holy spirit as 'he' but 'it'. Later Latin manuscripts that were produced after the Nicene Council's decision departed this.

When I have told Trinitarians in the past that the holy spirit is the Father's spirit they have told me that it is a heresy without giving me the opportunity to show them that is Biblical. Thereby condemning themselves for refusing to believe the truth. Like you they have said it is  a Unitarian idea. I was even told not to speak about these things.

For every unfounded word men utter they will answer on judgement day since it is by your words you will be acquitted and by your words condemned (Matthew 12:36).

Is 1:18,

You are trying to argue with the Biblical truth that the holy spirit is the Father's spirit..  A true believer will not reject Christ teaching:

''the spirit of your Father will be speaking in you.' (Matthew 10:20)

'By your own admission the teaching that the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit is Unitarian. Yet it is Christ's teaching. So he obviously did not teach the Trinity, and you like many other Trinitarians I have met reject his teaching.

'Is 1:18,
Open your eyes. You are promoting error instead of Christ's teaching here. Despite the fact that you were informed about your errors you continue to use them. It is sad that you are resisting Christ for the sake of the man made doctrine of the Trinity.

'It is a hard and narrow road that leads to life and few find it'.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.1.18,
May God refresh you with His Spirit today.
Acts 2.17f” It shall come to pass in the last days,says God,that I will pour out A PORTION OF MY SPIRIT on all mankind .Your sons and daughters will prophesy ,your young men will see visions and your old men dream dreams.Yes even on my servants and handmaids I will pour out A PORTION OF MY SPIRIT in those days….”
Joel who wrote these words, like Isaiah and all the prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit , I am sure you will agree.

But if you look back in the OT you see men filled with the Spirit of the Lord,The Spirit of God or the GOOD Spirit as in Ps 143 and Neh 9.The use of the term Holy Spirit is unusual in the OT and is not seen till the Psalms though it is constantly used in the NT by Jesus and others.

But surely you agree that the Holy Spirit is then interchangeable with the other terms and the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of your Father as in Mt 10?. Or were the prophets filled with a different spirit? No. We are told that the Scriptures were written by men ,prophets, under the influence of The Holy Spirit so surely these terms mean the same?

When Jesus was called GOOD teacher in Lk 18 he said
” Why do you call me GOOD ? None is GOOD but God alone.”
In Lk 11 .13
“If you ,with all your sins ,know how to give your children GOOD things how much more will your heavenly Father give the HOLY SPIRIT to those who ask Him?”

So Jesus confirmed the Spirit was of God as he said it was GOOD as did God Himself confirm it was HIS Spirit in Joel's scripture at the start of this post.
It has got to be simple and not complicated as trinity teachings would need to be to interpret these verses?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 26 2004,08:27)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 26 2004,06:00) A unitarian is essentially a christian who rejects the trinity. From dictionary.com Atheists also don't believe in the Trinity. So are they Unitarian? Come on Is 1:18, I am sure that you have a mind that you can think with. Why are you enslaved by the words of men? You cannot see the forest for the trees. This is a very sad statement from you and reflects your state of character. I really expected better from you and I wonder about even discussing biblical matters with you. We both know that it is shameful to cast pearls before the swine. Did you not know that the Holy Spirit wasn't even part of the first creed. It was more to do with The Father and Son being God. The Holy Spirit was added in about 60 years later. So there was a binity and then a trinity. But do you suppose that the first Creed (Nicene) was teaching unitarianism considering that they weren't teaching the Trinity? You know with the amount of scripture that you have been shown, you should really know much better. But the type of man you want to be is decided by you alone and even I know that I cannot stop you once your mind is made up. It's your will after all. I pray that God will bring true believers who not only respect the truth, but will have the courage to stand up for it and  die for it if necessary.

Hi t8,
Can you read properly? Is said a unitarian is essentially a christian who rejects the trinity. I then gave a dictionary definitition to show that this wasn't my own opinion. You should get your facts straight before launching into a tirade like that (and what's with the quasi-paternalism?).

Its always easy to spot someone without any real argument bc they will usually resort to character assassination and avoid the real core issues. This is what you have done. Everyone has been quick to jump on me here but no-one was willing to address the Jn 16 verses specifically.

BTW t8, you look down his nose on those who use creeds to support their premise, but you sure do this a lot.

Im going to leave you guys to it now.
Seeya.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
In the story of the prodigal son in Lk 15 the faithful OLDER brother is more than somewhat piqued at the apparently unfairly forgiving treatment of you and I. He gets angry and pleads with his Father reminding him of his complete obedience to his orders. That is the OLD testament Jew showing that perfect obedience to the Law also results in salvation but disobedience in one thing means complete loss too[Jas 2.10]

The lawyer in Lk 10.25 asked Jesus what he must DO to INHERIT eternal life . He was told the commandments of the Old Testament. He asked the wrong question as what we do does not save us except the OT way of works. We rely on the salvation won by Jesus for us.

Returning to the Prodigal son the older son is told by his father “My son,you are with me always and everything I have is yours” He will INHERIT the kingdom as the younger son has spent his half of the inheritance and cannot get it back.

The Jews still do not believe that God could be so generous with us gentile sinners and that is why so few risk becoming christians. It is against totally their experience of God. However it is the better covenant, the new living way through the blood of our saviour.[Heb ch 3-10]Still they are the original olive tree and we are just wild olives grafted onto them and they remain precious to God as His first fruits.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Is 1:18,

Yes I can read and it still appears to me that you gave the following interpretation from dictionary.com.

“A unitarian is essentially a christian who rejects the trinity.”

How can I not take this any other way than the way you said it. It's not as if you say “I disagree with this”. I can overlook anything if it is a mistake or if it was said to mean something else. But I still see it as you trying to put a label on someone.

1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

I do not have a title nor a denomination and I think that Nick doesn't either. We are just reading scripture to see if things are so. We are opening ourselves to God so that he can lead us by his Spirit.

If we believe the truth that the Father is the One true God, Yahweh. Then are we followers of Paul, Apollos, Unitarianism, Catholicism …..

No it doesn't mean that we are any of those. It's more simple than that. We follow the way we think God is showing us. We are not perfect, but our hearts are for God and his truth. It is no more than that.

Why do men ask such questions? Why do men have to label people? It is because they like to judge them easily. But you cannot judge a child Is 1:18, nor anyone who innocently seeks the truth. You can say that we are not perfect, but you cannot judge us by your human standard.

Is this thinking not the root of racism and other forms of prejudice. All Negroes are like this… All Men are like that… All White men are nazis…. All people who believe in 1 God are Unitarians…. What about the Jews. They believe in 1 God, so are they Unitarian.

You judge by the fruit of each mans life. Not by labeling them and then condemning all who wear that label.

Sure I will call a man a Catholic if that is what he wants to be called. If a man claims to be of the Oneness doctrine then by his own words he has said so. But what have we said to you that we are? Have we claimed to be of any denomination. Have we tried to get anyone to join a cult. Have I asked all members in Heaven Net to pay a tithe to me? Are we trying to win men to us, rather than Christ. No No No. You do not probably even know my real name. It's not about me or Nick. It is about the truth. The truth in our hearts. The truth revealed in scripture. The truth that God is love and that we should love one another.

We are simply putting on the hearts of men what God has already put on our hearts. It's so simple that even a child could comply.

We use references to creeds when we talk about history for this is helpful in understanding what has happened. But never do we take our doctrines and teachings from there. No it is from scripture and God breathed to us by the Spirit of God.

You can say what you like, and spout of all the stuff that the institutions teach you. But I have no wish to be institutionalised. I am not interested in the babbling of Babylon. I am not interested in mere men's opinions.

My hope is much greater than such things. I want to partake of the divine nature. I want to be lead by God's Spirit. I want to walk on water and move mountains. I reach out to God and ask that he give me and all those that love him a hand. That is all.

[Proclaimer]

It is a bit annoying how the first post in the Trinity discussion doesn't appear until the next post is made. I made this post, so that the previous one would show up.

Does anyone know how to fix this. I think it is a bug but not a known one. It must have something to do with very large posts.

I will look into it.

[messageofsalvation]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 27 2004,08:44)

Why do men ask such questions? Why do men have to label people? It is because they like to judge them easily. But you cannot judge a child Is 1:18, nor anyone who innocently seeks the truth. You can say that we are not perfect, but you cannot judge us by your human standard.

T8,

I know what you mean.  I remember speaking to a Trinitarian Pastor who was keen to ascertain what denomination my beliefs fit.  Back then I use to attend his church.  He did this because I challenged the doctrine of the Trinity, and he could not refute what I was saying. He tried to label me as a JW and I told him I am not one. In the past, I have been to a large number of Trinitarian churches and in almost every case they have taught that non-Trinitarians are non-Christrians. I am no longer a part of such denominations. After all if you are very open about the truth it is difficult to remain in such places.

Trinitarians say the Trinity is Christian doctrine, but around the time of Tertullian it clearly was not considered as Christian doctrine. I call it so-called Christian doctrine. So as to distinguish it from what is true Christian doctrine.

Is 1:18,

Quote

“May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Cor. 13:14). “who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood” (1 Peter 1:2). These can really only be explained if the Holy Spirit and God the Father are different persons

If I wrote:May the love of James, the compassion of his heart, and his brother be with you.

Would one assume that 'his heart' is a separate person to James. No.

Would you conclude that a persons heart is a separate person to themselves because their heart is grieved, insulted, vexed, deceived  etc?

'You will listen and listen again, but not understand, see and see again, but not perceive.  For the heart of this nation has grown course…they have shut their eyes for fear they should see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart.'

Is the heart of a nation a person  distinct from the nation?No.

'For forty-two months the beast was allowed to mouth its boasts and blasphemies and to dow whatever it wanted; and it mouthed its blasphemies against God, against his name, his heavenly tent and those who lived there.  (Revelation 13:5)

Is God's heavenly tent a person just because it is blasphemed?

Is 1:18,   I hope you get my drift. You wrote this to t8:

Quote

Its always easy to spot someone without any real argument bc they will usually resort to character assassination and avoid the real core issues. This is what you have done. Everyone has been quick to jump on me here but no-one was willing to address the Jn 16 verses specifically

I think you have avoided key issues that I raised.  The disciples and Christ said several things that could be misconstrued as character assassination.  

'if you, then who are evil, know how to give your children what is good, how much more your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!' (Matthew 7:11)

God has not called us to compromise the truth. If we do not judge by human standards then it is not a question of character assination but speaking in accordance with what is right.  If you are honest you will acknowledge that you have avoided real core issues e.g. the fact that you have used the division heresy to defend your belief that the Trinity is not at odds with John 17:3.  Nevertheless I will address  John 16.  

The Greek word for spirit is Pneuma.  This word is neuter.  It is neither feminine or masculine.  The pronoun 'it' is used when refering to the holy spirit throughout the New Testament.  However,  Trinitarian translators  instead of being faithful to truth use the pronoun 'he' instead the word 'it'.  If the aposles felt the holy spirit was a distinct person from the Father they would have used the masculine pronoun 'AUTOS'  but they did not instead they used the neuter pronoun  'AUTO'.  

The Greek word for spirit is accompanied with the pronoun 'it' throughout the New Testament. In John chapter 16 the language is different. You have overlooked the fact that in  John chapter 16 Christ makes it quite clear that he was speaking in metaphors.

Regarding chapter 16 this key point is often overlooked:

'I have been telling you all this in metaphors; but I shall no longer speak to you in metaphors; but tell you about the Father in plain words' (John 16:25)

He refers to the spirit as PARAKLHTOS (often translated as the Comforter).Christ spoke about his Father in metaphorical terms in John chapter 16.  He was not referring to a third member of the Trinity.

The Father's spirit lives in Christ . This is sent down to the saints in the name of Christ:

'but the Advocate, the holy spirit whom the Father will send in my name' (John 14:26).  

We should understand that it is not another person who 'issues from the Father'. Christ is one with God's holy spirit.  The spirit that we receive is one: the union of the Father's spirit and that of  his son.

Is 1:18, Have you never asked yourself questions (talked to yourself either internally or out aloud? So what is so strange if God does the same thing.  Don't some mothers say  'mummy' to  their baby to try to help it speak? So what is so strange when the Father  help us to say what we have difficulty in expressing to him for our benefit?  Does not your heart expresss what it feels? Yet it is not a separate person to you.  God is spirit.  And if Christ expresses this in metaphorical terms what is so hard to believe.  And if Christ is one spirit with his Father what is so strange if through the Father's spirit Christ is able to convey what he has learned to us.  Did Christ always speak literally?

Is 1:18,   God's holy spirit is  the Father spirit at work in Christ. If this  truth is denied then the work of the Father in Christ is denied. To attribute this work to someone other than the Father is to dishonour the Father. If you deny the holy spirit is the Father's spirit at work in Christ, and are attributing it to someone other than  the Father then you deny the work of God in Christ.

Is 1:18,   if you deny the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father at work in Christ. Then you deny Christ.

Please take time to think about all this.Christ is not apposed to the teaching that the God's holy spirit is his Father spirit as shown in my previous post. But you have been. This is something you should have repented over.

For your own salvation, do not simply avoid the fact that  you have used a heresy (dividing Christ) in your attempts to defend your belief that you are not apposing Christ's teaching in John 17:3. Trinitarians use that heresy at various points e.g. when defending their belief that Chri
st is God Almighty despite the fact that he said 'my God, my God why have you forsaken me'.

For Trinitarians to say  Christ (one person) is fully God and claim one person is not God is not the spirit of truth. It is dishonest. But have you addressed this?

I have presented you with the above  points that you still have not dealt with rather than bombard you with a page full of new ones.  Otherwise you may claim I am insulting you and use this as a basis for not dealing with it again.

[messageofsalvation]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 26 2004,06:00)

If God the father is spirit and the Holy Spirit is spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit then the Holy Spirit must be the Father. If that's true then Spirit of God must speak only what He hears from Himself. He talks to Himself? Don't you find this a little hard to believe? He is also subservient to Jesus. Can you explain this? These verses only make sense in a trinitarian framework.

Honestly, Is 1:18, I prefer to believe the scriptures than follow your pattern of unbelief.

''the spirit of your Father will be speaking in you.' (Matthew 10:20)

But they rebelled, they grieved his holy spirit (Isaiah 63:10)

The spirit of Yahweh led them to rest this is how you guided your people (Isaiah 63:14)

Do not let your compassion go unmoved, for you are our Father. For Abraham does not own us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, Yahweh, yourself are our Father (Isaiah 63:16).

Is 1:18, the scriptures are quite clear in showing us that the God's holy spirit is the spirit of the Father. Christ is one with his Father: one in spirit. I believe that the only true God is the Father and therefore God's (Father's) holy spirit is clearly the spirit of the Father, and not the third person of the Trinity.

Is 1:18 you wrote:

Quote

Also notice that Jesus used the masculine form of parakletos; he did not consider it necessary to make the word neuter or to use neuter pronouns. In John 16:14, masculine pronouns are used even after the neuter pneuma is mentioned. It would have been easy to switch to neuter pronouns, but John did not..

Are we not reading a translation.  Do you know whether Christ spoke to his disciples in Greek or Hebrew. Yet you say Jesus used the masculine form of parakletos. Jesus called it 'the spirit of truth' in John chapter 16.  Truth in Greek is a feminine form. Using your argument should we now argue that the holy spirit is a female person like a few Trinitarian cults, certainly not.This is such a deceptive argument that your using.Really Is 1:18 some of your arguments are deceptive. Any poor soul that did not know better may be deceived by it. Yet will you stop using such arguments? Do you think God approves of what you are saying here? If you continue to use such arguments after your error has been highlighted then your actions become wilful deception.

I do not wish to abandon God for a man made doctrine (i.e. the doctrine of the Trinity). As I said before to deny that the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father at work in Christ is to deny the Father. Trinitarians do this by falsely claiming that some mysterious third person of the Trinity worked in Christ instead of attributing that work to the Father himself. They dishonour the Father, a dangerous thing to do.

“For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ”. (2 Corinthians 10:3,4)

[WhatIsTrue]

Hi Is 1:18,

Between your last reply and this post, you have already taken quite a bit of punishment from the other participants, so I hate to pile on, especially considering that you are alone in your defense of the Trinity in this discussion right now.  In any case, on to my response.

Unfortunately, you did not respond to my challenge as I defined it.  I asked for an explanation of the trinity using scripture alone – no interjections! – and you gave me only an explanation of who you believe Jesus is following my criterion.  After that, you went back to the method of interjecting your interpretation before, or after, quoting verses.  My point all along has been that the Trinity seems to be a doctrine of inference, and is not a plain teaching of the word of God.  In other words, the concept of the Trinity is extra-biblical.  It can not be explained using scripture alone.

For the record, the scriptures that you quote concerning Jesus imply that he was God and then became something less than God.  (e.g.  He “emptied” himself and became “obedient”.  “Obedient” to whom?)  Not only does that not completely define the Trinity, it goes against the co-equality clause of the Trinity doctrine.  Nothing in what you quoted talks about him retaining equality with the Father.  It's not even implied.

I will leave your questions about the Holy Spirit to others who are more assured of their answers.  Right now, I don't have a sufficient grasp of the nature of the Holy Spirit, nor the text to which you refer.  I do thank you for your response to my query, and look forward to any further clarifications.

T8,

I have noticed some problems with the board of late.  I had the same problem as you the other day, and I had trouble seeing the last page of the discussion several days ago when there was only one post on it.  Also, you should know that the link at the end of the Trinity article now sends people to an entirely different discussion than this one.  Have fun figuring it all out!

[Anonymous]

hey wit,

in defence of is1:18, (and without going into any detail which might waver from the topic at hand) i must say that a lot of what we believe is infered…

cheers,

nate.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 29 2004,13:55)

T8, I have noticed some problems with the board of late. I had the same problem as you the other day, and I had trouble seeing the last page of the discussion several days ago when there was only one post on it. Also, you should know that the link at the end of the Trinity article now sends people to an entirely different discussion than this one. Have fun figuring it all out!

Yeah I think the Trinity Forum problem lies in the fact that it is very big.

thx for letting me know about the link in the Trinity Page. I have fixed it now.

cheers

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 29 2004,13:55)

Unfortunately, you did not respond to my challenge as I defined it.  I asked for an explanation of the trinity using scripture alone – no interjections!

I think that this is a very fair request. It is not unreasonable in the slightest. If a doctrine is scriptural, then scripture on its on will demonstrate it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 29 2004,13:55)

I will leave your questions about the Holy Spirit to others who are more assured of their answers.  Right now, I don't have a sufficient grasp of the nature of the Holy Spirit, nor the text to which you refer.  I do thank you for your response to my query, and look forward to any further clarifications.

I do not have a sufficient grasp either.

God has shown me that He is the one true God and that he has a son an image after his likeness. The identity of this image and Logos is Yashua (Hebrew) Jesus (Greek). He is also the Christ and the one who saved us from our inevitiable death due to our seperation with life.

But the Spirit is another matter entirely. My thoughts say that the Spirit is the essence of God and that God himself is his mind/identity.

So if God has a body at all, it is Spirit. Yet his Spirit can dwell in all where sin is not. His Spirit (unlike flesh) is able to transend all of creation because his Spirit is not created. So by his Spirit he can be in all of creation, with the exception of sin. When God's Spirit lives in us, it is his essence that lives in us. His mind and my mind are different, but we can be one in Spirit with him.

Just as I have a mind and a body and am made in his image, I would consider myself to be my mind. As I get older my atoms/skin/physical makeup is regenerated. My body is the vessel in which I inhabit, but my mind is always me. My mind is contained within a finite body and yet my mind cannot be measured or counted in a physical sense like my body can.

I do not teach this and I offer it as a suggestion only, in order that it may be subjected to scripture and what God is showing others. My wish is to not repeat the mistakes of men in the past by building a man made way to describe and anaylise God. I do not want to hammer out an idol.

However I don't see a problem with suggestions and searching for the truth, so long as we do not depart scripture. In the end scripture is our guide in that it will show us the truth and rebuke us if necessary.

So what do you think about the idea that God our Father is a mind/identity and his mind is eternal. He exists or is manifest in the form of spirit and he longs to dwell in all of his creation by his Spirit. But it is only sin that seperates us/creation from him.

I offer the following scriptures for thought.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Acts 13:2
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Acts 28:25-26
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
   26″ 'Go to this people and say,
  “You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
      you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

Isaiah 6:8-9
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
” 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

The word Lord in the last verse is 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'}. So Paul teaches that The Holy Spirit said these same words that 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'} spoke. If this is the case, then he was most likely idenifying 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'} as the Holy Spirit.

Who is 'Adonay {ad-o-noy'} in Isaiah 6:8-9?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (messageofsalvation @ Oct. 28 2004,10:08)

I know what you mean.  I remember speaking to a Trinitarian Pastor who was keen to ascertain what denomination my beliefs fit.  Back then I use to attend his church.  He did this because I challenged the doctrine of the Trinity, and he could not refute what I was saying. He tried to label me as a JW and I told him I am not one. In the past, I have been to a large number of Trinitarian churches and in almost every case they have taught that non-Trinitarians are non-Christrians. I am no longer a part of such denominations. After all if you are very open about the truth it is difficult to remain in such places.

Yes this is true anywhere in the world.
The problem with the denominational system is it's foundation. The foundation or statement of faith of most of these denominations is usually a creed or a variant of one. The creeds themselves came into existance due to the debate of the nature of Christ which lead to the Trinity Doctrine. So these denominations are actually founded on that doctrine and many works have been built on top. This foundation is at odds with the one that Christ built his Church on, namely that he was the Messiah and the son of the living God.

So your challenge with the truth, strikes at the very heart of these organisations and is perhaps one reason why they condemn all who do not believe this doctrine.

This actually doesn't worry me personally because rejection of this system probably shows that you are not of it. If I were rejected by Christ himself, then I would be worried enough to repent of whatever offence stood between me and him. But rejection of man is fine and to be expected sometimes.

And of course the world is our enemy and denominations are actually an arm of the world. The world is a system and these denominations are also systems. But thank God that we look for a city not made by human hands. We long to be where our citizenship lies. The world tries to seduce us with counterfeits and caters to our carnal nature, but it is the Spirit who leads us home.

[Author]

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