- This topic has 18,300 replies, 268 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 25 2007,16:57) On a side note, let your son do what he really wants to do…Watch a Yankee game…:?
*********************************
Yep! It was the Mariner's versus the Yankees……how did you know?
Daw, do you think God changed his mind regarding the flood? And if so, what about the scripture that says God doesn't change his mind? Thanks.
Oh! And congratulations on winning your bowling games (I can bowl a pretty mean frame myself. Of course they have the bumpers up!)
Yep! It was the Mariner's versus the Yankees……how did you know?
*********************************
It (the game) would not have been interesting otherwise.Originally I thought the flood was an example of God changing his mind. After reading the entire chapter, it is clear that he did not (at least not in this case).
GE 6:5 – 6:8 appears to be a sort of preface to or summary of the story that follows.
GE 6:11 – 6:13 details Gods decision more clearly.Here God to Noah, explains what he will do and he states all people.
GE 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
And here God states:
GE 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
But the decision to allow Noah and his family to continue appears to be in accordance to or with wiping out “Everything on earth”.
18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
So no mind changing here (from my perspective).
What is really interesting is the fate of “the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems”. It appears that the fishees were spared? God never mentions what lurks below. The precise consistency of this is pretty cool.
all you have written we have read but i want you to be more careful about the screptures you have given from there u will recognise that joining the father and his son whom the scripture in acts 4 say that he was chosen by GOD TO BE HIS SON IS TOTALLY WRONG MY DEAR.TRY TO READ YOUR BIBLE WITHOUT ANY PRESSURE AM SURE U WILL GET THE TRUTH.
Hi,
All the trinity theory supporters here seem to be trying to establish scriptural similarities between the Father and the anointed son as if it would lead to a foundation to declare that God is a trinity.It seems to be wasted effort because first it is necessary to establish from scripture that God is a trinity and this is accepted by all as impossible. There are no such verses and this must mean the idea has no scriptual basis in fact.
What is the value of such supportive evidence without a firm foundation to build it on? The chasm is too wide to be bridged by inference and logic alone.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,10:28) Hi,
All the trinity theory supporters here seem to be trying to establish scriptural similarities between the Father and the anointed son as if it would lead to a foundation to declare that God is a trinity.It seems to be wasted effort because first it is necessary to establish from scripture that God is a trinity and this is accepted by all as impossible. There are no such verses and this must mean the idea has no scriptual basis in fact.
What is the value of such supportive evidence without a firm foundation to build it on? The chasm is too wide to be bridged by inference and logic alone.
Nick, I agree.Jesus is similar to God in many aspects, but Jesus Christ and God are not identical.
Similarities are not identities. Similarities do not prove identity. In fact, according to all laws of logic, one point of dissimilarity *disproves* identity. One example [out of many] would be temptation – Jesus was tempted and God cannot be tempted.
May I post another of the articles by my friend. I hope it is helpfull.
The Dual Nature of Christ
Dysfunctional DoctrineOne of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.
God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?
God does not have teachings or works that are dysfunctional. All of the things He does works toward helping His plan come about. An example is found in Genesis Chapter 1. Hebrews relate everything to functionality or relationship. the word “Good” (tov , Heb) would be better translated as functional. the opposite of this word is “ra”. these two words are used in the knowledge of good (tov) and evil (ra) In otherwords the knowledge of function and disfunction. God, His creation, His teachings, and His children should be functional. All teachings that prepose to help us, should function within God’s plan for His creation.
There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”
This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?
First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.
Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.
In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.
Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.
God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!
There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.
There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.
Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.
This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou for
saken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?
The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. It is dysfunctional. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand.
“And if so, what about the scripture that says God doesn't change his mind? “
Hi Not,
Which scripture were you referring to?Hi Daw,
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…..Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:37) ?m42
Yes Nick, My friend is M$@. Hes has been a mentor of mine for some time
I do not think he will return.Oh, hi Martian I remember you now. Didn't you send me some emails using the email address “music42@somewhere?” – I had thought you did? I'll have to check my mailbox. Forgive me if I am wrong, it's been a while. I'm just trying to keep everyone straight.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,13:32) Martian, who is your friend? Is he a member here on HeavenNet? Get him in here!
He is a former member. I do not think he will be returning. His purpose on the forums was to see if anyone could come up with something he has not dealt with in the past. He wanted to determine if he had all the bases covered in his research. He is now writing a book (this was a small portion of it) based on all he has learned.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,14:09) Oh, hi Martian I remember you now. Didn't you send me some emails using the email address “music42@somewhere?” – I had thought you did? I'll have to check my mailbox. Forgive me if I am wrong, it's been a while. I'm just trying to keep everyone straight.
Music4two is my mentor, You may have communicated with him. I am not sure. WE speak much the same things and I quote him often.Martian, even after years and years of “covering all the bases” you still can learn something new (believe me). Tell your friend to come back and participate! Anyway, glad YOU are here.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,13:53) Hi Daw,
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…..
I do believe that God has changed his mind, based on a change in the circumstances (from a human perspective).Ref:
NIV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change is mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?KJV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?NIV
JER 26:12 Then Jeremiah said to all the officials and all the people: “The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the things you have heard. 13 Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the LORD your God. Then the LORD will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you.KJV
JER 26:12 Then spake Jeremiah unto all the princes and to all the people, saying, The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that ye have heard. 13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.NIV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.KJV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.Quote (dawebhead @ May 29 2007,14:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,13:53) Hi Daw,
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…..
I do believe that God has changed his mind, based on a change in the circumstances (from a human perspective).Ref:
NIV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change is mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?KJV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?NIV
JER 26:12 Then Jeremiah said to all the officials and all the people: “The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the things you have heard. 13 Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the LORD your God. Then the LORD will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you.KJV
JER 26:12 Then spake Jeremiah unto all the princes and to all the people, saying, The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that ye have heard. 13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.NIV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.KJV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
You might also add the fact that Abraham bargained with God for the lives of those in Sadom and Gamorah. Becaused on Abrahams plea lot and his family were spared.“You might also add the fact that Abraham bargained with God for the lives of those in Sadom and Gamorah. Becaused on Abrahams plea lot and his family were spared.”
Thought about that Mar, but considered it more of a conversation (reasoning) than a change of mind or decision.
thks
When God has said something is so (a decree or commandment, for instance) I do not believe he changes his mind. However, as I said before, I think we are free to negotiate with our Father as his children. I would not let these examples upset you in any way. You can trust God.
Hi
I believe that it would be dishonest for one to come here as an alias, especially if the one who is the imposter left on a bad note calling people names like monkeys.
martian if you are not m42 then before you swallow his doctrine you should check his fruit.
For he was not a very nice person and showed a lot of contempt here.
I must confess that in my dialogue with you it seemed I was talking to m42.
t8. I dont know if you can see IPs, but I think it would only be right for everyone to know if martian is an alias.
I received an email from “Music4two” and then it was signed “Martian.” I wasn't sure but when I went back and checked, I remembered correctly.
Martian, if you would like to participate again, please just do so – you don't have to lie about who you are. This is a great forum and I can see why you would want to come back. If there were hard feelings before under your other name “M42” – just agree to disagree, apologize, or move on. You don't need an alias – come on back, brother.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
