The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Ok .Fair enough Is1.18. Should have tried with the capital and I should have checked KJV. Mine reads divinity and deity in those scriptures. It is a descriptive state of being that I can understand in these 2 terms but godhead is used more as a person by those who see 3 in one.

[NickHassan]

The word God occurs over 4000 times in the Bible.

……Still looking for trinity.

[Proclaimer]

In each of those 3 verses, a different Greek word is used. They are all derivatives of the word theos.

1) theios = godlike, divine, godhead
2) theiotes = divinity (comes from theios).
3) theotes = divinity, godhead

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The word 'divine in this verse is the same word 'theios' 1). So the KJV renders this word as 'godhead in 1 verse and 'divine in another.

So it is obvious that these words are talking about likeness or/and nature. E.g. Jesus is like God. Jesus is divine and we know that we will partake of the divine nature.

But the Father is the Most High Theos. He is divine and he is also the source of all divinity. And yes, Jesus is divine too. Except Jesus is not the source of that divinity, hence he is not the Divine, rather divine. Jesus is divine because he receives that nature from God. We will receive that nature from God through Christ. That is why we are called sons of God and we are his offspring.

So Colossians 2:9 is saying that Jesus has the fulness of God's own nature in him. But in identity Jesus is the son of God not part of this Greek/Babylonian/Egyptian Trinity god. Jesus was and is the Logos who was with God in the beginning.

We need to learn to distinguish between identity and nature in order to understand scriptures pertaining to the Father and Son. Once we understand this, we will not be so easily swayed by the doctrines and formulas of men who cannot help but turn to idols when they are following their own nature.

Again the concept of a father and son is something that we all understand. God demonstrates this clearly in the realm of human family. A son is made in the image of his father and mother. But he is a unique identity and has a will that is seperate to his parents. He has his own soul, but his flesh is in the likeness of his parents.

To Fathers with sons out there. How would you like your son to be considered the same being as you. Would that not take away from his and your identity. Even considering that you are both man(kind) in nature.

Nature and identity are different. When we can understand that, we can understand that the Father is the Divine and Jesus is divine and whilst having the same nature, they are different identities.

[NickHassan]

Quite so T8 and PLM,
Matt16.13
” When Jesus came into the neighbourhood of Caesarea Philippi he asked His disciples this question
'Who do PEOPLE say that the Son of Man is?'
They replied
'Some say John the Baptiser, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets'
'And YOU' he said to them 'who do YOU say that I am?'

'YOU ARE THE MESSIAH' Simon Peter answered
'THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD'

Jesus replied
'Blest are you Simon son of Jonah .No MERE MAN has revealed this to you but my HEAVENLY FATHER ..”

IF YOU WERE ASKED BY JESUS WOULD YOU TOO GIVE THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU WERE LISTENING TO THE SPIRIT OF GOD?

Or would you say
” you are God the Son, the second person of the trinity, coequal and coeternal with the Father.”??

If you did you would prove you are following mere man and the multitude of false teachers claiming to speak in the name of Jesus. Check on the internet and find out how many are teaching these truths and the truth about salvation.

This site's teaching is almost alone in defending sound doctrine . Chuck Missler and others may have some insights that are helpful but if he is not preaching these truths he is a blind teacher of the blind and will lead them into a pit.

[WhatIsTrue]

Ramblinrose,

Thanks for the links and the encouragement. I am still digesting some of the content of those links, but I am grateful for another perspective that might urge me on to Truth.

Is 1:18,

In the meantime, as the sole defender of the trinity in this discussion right now, do you have a response to my challenge? (Thanks for not abandoning the dialogue.)

T8,

Here's one to wrestle with:

“He also says, 'In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

This is what God says to the Son. (Read it in context.) However, this is taken from Psalm 102:25-27, and this psalm is specifically addressed to Yahweh.

Thanks all for the lively discussion.

[Ramblinrose]

WhatIsTrue

You may find the following link answers your questions on Hebrews.

http://www.torahofmessiah.com/echad4.htm

Shalom

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.1.18,
I have read through all the scriptures that you suggested where you are unsure if YHWH relates to Jesus.The first four are all the same -the mission of John the Baptist to 'make straight the way of the Lord' from all the gospels quoting Is 40.3-5.
Some of the others had me baffled at the supposed connection so I will stay with these.

There are also many scriptures about the King and this could also cause similar confusion as we know Jesus is King. Such as Ps 5.2,Ps 24, Jer 10.7, 1Tim 6.15. Is 6 .1f and Is 43.15

We also know that King Jesus is going to hand the Kingdom over to the Father who will then be King of all [1Cor 15.24] So ,as always the confusion disappears when we realise that Jesus acts as agent, works in His Father's Name, and gives the glory to the Father. So also John makes the way straight for the Kingdom that is ultimately the Fathers.

The Jews would have had no problems understanding this as to them God is One and all glory goes back to Him.

[NickHassan]

Ok Is 1.18,
I see where you are coming from in Jn 12.39
“The reason they could not believe was that ,as Isaiah says elsewhere ' He has blinded their eyes and numbed their hearts lest they see or comprehend or have a change of heart-and I should heal them ' Isaiah uttered these words because he had SEEN JESUS GLORY and it was of Him he Spoke”

The cross reference is to Is 6.1f
” In the year king Uzziah died I saw the LORD
[Adonay-not YHWH] seated on a high and lofty throne with the train of His garment filling the temple..”

So this is a vision of Jesus in His glory before he shed that glory to be like us. But as Adonay ther is no confusion with the Father is there?

Jn 5.39
” Search the scriptures in which you think you have eternal life -they also testify on My behalf”

[NickHassan]

Hi,
2Cor 3.17″ The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is ,there is freedom. All of us ,gazing on the Lord's glory with unveiled faces ,are being transformed from glory to glory, into His very image by the Lord who is the Spirit.”

How can a trintarian cope with this scripture? It indicates no separation between the Lord and the Spirit. No problem to simple followers of Jesus as the God is Spirit and has His throne in Heaven and filled Jesus and believers with that Spirit, His Spirit, The Spirit of Jesus-the Holy Spirit.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Oct. 18 2004,11:46)

Is 1:18, In the meantime, as the sole defender of the trinity in this discussion right now, do you have a response to my challenge?  (Thanks for not abandoning the dialogue.)

Hi WIT
Sorry did I miss something? what was I supposed to be replying to? What are your questions specifically?
Is 1:18

[Proclaimer]

Hi WhatIsTrue,

It is good to see that you are searching and I pray that God will satisfy your curiosity for truth.

I can't remember if I gave you the link to a discussion about Jesus. Did he pre-exist? Who is he etc.

I believe that Jesus is the Logos who was with God in the beginning. The Logos is the expression of God, but some think that the Logos in the beginning was only in the Fathers mind and came into being when he was born through Mary. But I haven't seen any real scriptural evidence for this yet. To me the scriptures demonstrate that Jesus pre-existed as the son and the Word of God.

I would like to see more input in this discussion but I think that a lot of ground has already been made.

http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….47;st=0

[WhatIsTrue]

Ramblinrose,
    Thanks again.  That is exactly what I was looking for.  As before, I am still processing it all.  By the way, do you have any links that go into any depth about the Holy Spirit?

Is 1:18,

Quote

I have a challenge for everyone, regardless of your particular beliefs. Anyone who has been a believer for any length of time can go to scripture and outline the plan of salvation, (or at least the plan of salvation as he understands it).  In fact, one can easily use scripture alone, without any commentary, to explain salvation to someone who is a seeker.  For example: “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Roms 5:12 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” Roms 6:23 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17 Notice that I did not interject any commentary inbetween verses.  I let them speak for themselves, and I think it is utterly clear what they are saying.  Now the challenge is: Can you do the same with the Trinity doctrine, or whatever doctrine you believe in?

In other words, can you explain the doctrine of the Trinity to me using scripture alone?

T8,
    I believe that you mentioned that discussion before, but I am not in a place yet where I feel like I could contribute very much.  But, it is a topic of great importance to me, so I might skim through the discussion if I have some time.

[Anonymous]

WIS,
Yeah OK. I'll try and post on the weekend. October is a very busy work month for me.
Is 1:18

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 19 2004,03:27)

Ok Is 1.18, I see where you are coming from in Jn 12.39 “The reason they could not believe was that ,as Isaiah says elsewhere ' He has blinded their eyes and numbed their hearts lest they see or comprehend or have a change of heart-and I should heal them ' Isaiah uttered these words because he had SEEN JESUS GLORY and it was of Him he Spoke” The cross reference is to Is 6.1f ” In the year king Uzziah died I saw the LORD [Adonay-not YHWH] seated on a high and lofty throne with the train of His garment filling the temple..” So this is a vision of Jesus in His glory before he shed that glory to be like us. But as Adonay ther is no confusion with the Father is there? Jn 5.39 ” Search the scriptures in which you think you have eternal life -they also testify on My behalf”

Greetings Nick

Have another look … this isn't a ref. to Jesus at all.
It is indeed a ref. to Adonai YAHWEH, the Lord YAHWEH, the ONE GOD … look …

(John 12:37-41)  But though he [JESUS] had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: [JESUS] 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord , who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord [YAHWEH] been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I [YAHWEH GOD] should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he [Isaiah] saw his [Lord YAHWEH'S] glory, and spake of
him. [YAHWEH in Isa 6]

Isaiah, therefore, said the words of Isa 6.9-10 at the time that he saw the glory of YAHWEH in Isaiah Chapter 6.
So, John is saying that the rejection of YAHWEH's Messiah and Agent was prophesied, by Isaiah; John then quotes Isaiah; and tell us WHEN or WHERE (i.e. at what event) Isaiah was, when he spoke these words.

John stopped talking about Jesus, way back in verse 37.
Verse 38 onwards, the subject is YAHWEH GOD!

Do you see my point?

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam,
again a difference in interpretation. 6 out of 17 of the translations on bible gateway read Jesus or Christ in this verse. Adonai or Adonay I understand do not necessarily refer to God in the same way YHWH. Interesting and thanks for the info and I will search further.

[NickHassan]

cont. The other aspect is if Isaiah had truly seen the Father that would contradict the words of Jesus who said no one has seen God?

[NickHassan]

cont. Unless it means Is had “foreseen” the mission of Jesus.And if he saw a vision of God is that seeing God? no .

[Proclaimer]

No man can see God. If someone is reported to have seen him, what they are really seeing is a manifestation of God through Christ, an Angel or other means, even creation. It is why Jesus said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. Jesus is like God, he is the prototype image of God and that is what he was conveying.

God is invisible and is not fully contained in a body for nothing can fully contain him, not even all of creation. He is the Most High. How can a mere man see God as if he were a man or an angel. If we were able to behold all creation including all the worlds and perhaps even other universes that God may have created; I think even then we would only see his garment only. The garment of God is still not God himself, but is of him.

Finite cannot comprehend infinite. But we have a mediator who has seen the infinite but is able to declare him to us who are finite. The only begotten of God is the only one who can see God and he declares God to us and creation.

Just as the woman is the glory of Man and therefore the glory of God, the woman is also not the man in idenity.

1 Corinthians 11:7
A man ought not to have long hair since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[ 4:6 Gen. 1:3] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

So the glory of God is also not God himself but a manifestation of God. God's glory comes from him and is reflected in many (perhaps infinite) amount of ways.

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

John 11:40
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”

Acts 7:2
To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran.

[Proclaimer]

thx Adam

[NickHassan]

Yes .
I am grateful for your help and correction Adam. Very good. I would welcome some more insights from you on the site.
The verse is again corrupted in NIV and at least 5 others then-but ok in NASB. The word Jesus or Christ you say does not appear in any manuscript but is added in? Certainly it is starting to appear that some of the translaters work in the NT lacks faithfulness and fear of God.

We can be very grateful that the OT was not treated in this way but given the appropriate prayerful and deep effort in translation by the Jews. At least they would justify, defend and explain their choice of interpretations. Too much license seems to be the rule of NIV and other newer versions in some places of the NT and they put obstacles in our path.

I have read books that lacerate every version except the KJV as demonic. But the KJV is the favourite bible of most cults and seems the most easy to twist to support false doctrine.

Thank God for His Spirit and His Church.

[Author]

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