The Trinity Doctrine

[Archieve]

I have asked this question on boards where people believe in a trinity and I haven’t had one person to give me an answer.

The question is – When God sent Jesus to earth, what did he send?

The bible is clear that when God sends The Holy Ghost, he is sending his Spirit.

I have also asked this question on the boards –

When I read and see the word (God) in the New Testament, who am I reading about?

One lady told me that when I read about (God) in the New Testament – that I am reading about (God the Father, God the Son and God The Holy Ghost).

Lets say that was true, which I know it isn’t, but lets say she was right, guess what that would have made John?

John said  –

St. John 1:18 (No man hath seen God at any time); the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he had declared him.

I John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time, If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

According to the trinity doctrine – (God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost is the One God), so the question is – (Which God was John talking about)?

John didn’t say, No one hath seen God the Father at any time. (I know that God – is God the Father – The bible is clear on that).

John didn’t say, No man hath seen God the Son at any time.

John didn’t say, No man hath seen God The Holy Ghost at any time.

So – is there another God that we don’t know about?

Love,

Archieve

[Ambassador of Christ]

In response to Archieve:

You asked:  “The question is – When God sent Jesus to earth, what did he send?”

I feel, based on your question, that you might have a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.  Here is a brief description of what the doctrine says:  ‘Within the one being that is God there exists 3 separate, co-equal, and co-eternal persons, namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.’

Yet another misunderstanding I feel you might have is in reference to the usage of the word “God” in the New Testament.  Let the context tell you which person of the Godhead the writer refers to.  Each person in the Godhead has a specific ministry.  If the New Testament refers to God as indwelling a person, we know that it is in reference to the Holy Spirit and his ministry (John 14).  We know this because scripture tells us that it is neither the person of Jesus Christ nor the person of the Father that dwells within a believer, but rather the Holy Spirit.  Note that throughout scripture, the person of the Holy Spirit is referred to as many names, including the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Father, God’s Spirit, etc.  Let context of the passage answer the question as to which person within the Godhead the writer refers.  I will give some examples:

John 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. . . . .”

Which person within the Godhead is John referring to when he uses the word ‘God’?  The pronoun ‘He’ and ‘His’ refer back to God in this verse.  Clearly, John is referring to the Father.  Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of the Father.  Nowhere in scripture do we find that the Holy Spirit begot the Son.  Likewise, nowhere in scripture do we hear of the Son begetting himself.

Another example:

Acts 20:28  "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Which member of the Godhead does Luke refer to in this passage?  Again ‘He’ and ‘His’ in this verse refer back to God.  Which person within the Godhead shed his blood for the church?  This passage is not in reference to the persons of the Father or Holy Spirit, but to the member of the Godhead that became flesh, died on a cross, and atoned for sin with his blood.  Clearly, Jesus Christ is referred to as God in this passage.

–Each person within the Godhead shares full equality and divinity, so when the bible refers to God, we know that regardless of which person it is in reference to, it is speaking of the only true God, YAHWEH.

You asked some questions about two passages:

Jon 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

1 John 4:12 “No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.”

Your question was as follows:   “According to the trinity doctrine – (God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost is the One God), so the question is – (Which God was John talking about)?”

To correct you, the trinity doctrines state the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all make up one God.  Also note that each member is fully God, not 1/3 God.  You are correct however when you say that the Trinity doctrine states there to be only ONE GOD.  IN stating that, you in a sense answered your own question, “Which God is John talking about?”  There is only one God.  Just to specify for you, His name is YAHWEH.

To elaborate on my answer, I would like for you to note I cited John 1:18 from the NASB.  You will find that most modern translations will say “the only begotten God” rather than “the only begotten Son.”  Your King James Version does not however.  This comes down to a translation issue, and I feel that the modern translations of this passage are much better.  However, if you refuse to use any version of the bible other then the KJV, I would refer you to 1 Timothy 3:16 in your bible.  I’m sure that will end your questions as to the deity of Christ, if that is something you are struggling with.  If, however, you feel that after reading that verse you have a need for a better translation, I would then refer you to a more accurate translation, such as the NASB.

But, back to your last question, “Is there another God that we don’t know about?”

Again, if you are looking for an answer in light of the doctrine of the Trinity to this question, you need to do more research on what the Trinity teaches.  I have defined it many times on this message board.  The first thing the doctrine of the Trinity says is that there is ONLY ONE GOD.  This answers your question.  No, there is no other God out there that we do not know of.  There is only one God; his name is YAHWEH.  We know from John 4:24 that God is not spirit, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."  We cannot see Spirit.  However, God did take on flesh and dwell on earth.  People certainly saw him, and Christ himself said that He revealed his Father.  Seeing Christ was just the same as seeing His Father in heaven.  In light of this, lets look at John 1:18 again

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

John says that no one has seen God, and then goes on to say that Christ has explained him.  That already eliminates any possibility of the first word ‘GOD’ as being in reference to the Son.  Note here also that John is clearly showing that the Father and Son are separate persons.  Finally, John answers the question as to which person of the Godhead he is referring to when he refers to the Father in this passage as being explained by the Son.

As to 1 John 4:12, I will quote from a commentary of this verse I believe answers it much better that I could

“’No man hath seen God at any time,….’ The same is said by the Evangelist John, Joh 1:18; but here it is observed with a different view, and upon another account; there it signifies that no man has seen and looked into the counsels and designs of God, and been able to make a discovery and declaration of his mind and will, his love and grace, and which is there ascribed to the Son of God; but here the sense is, that whereas God is invisible in his nature, and incomprehensible in his being and perfections, so that there is no coming to him, and seeing of him, and conversing with him in a familiar way, and so not of loving him as he is in himself, and ought to be loved, as one friend sees, converses with, and loves another, and finds his love increased by sight and conversation; then we ought to love the saints and people of God, who are visible, may be seen, come at, and conversed with, see; for this clause stands among the arguments and reasons for brotherly love:”   -John Gill

I hope that my response has fully answered your questions.

-God Bless

[Archieve]

I wish that the html were on, so I could quote you in quotes, but I will use [ ] around what you have said, and ****  around my replies

Ambassador of Christ wrote:

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Can you take me to the bible and show me where the bible claims that (God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost are co-equal and co-eternal)?
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[Yet another misunderstanding I feel you might have is in reference to the usage of the word “God” in the New Testament.  Let the context tell you which person of the Godhead the writer refers to.  Each person in the Godhead has a specific ministry.  If the New Testament refers to God as indwelling a person, we know that it is in reference to the Holy Spirit and his ministry (John 14).  We know this because scripture tells us that it is neither the person of Jesus Christ nor the person of the Father that dwells within a believer, but rather the Holy Spirit.]

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Well according to (Gods’ Truth) – there is only one God and that (God is God the Father).

(Jesus nor his Apostles) preached about any other (God) besides (God, who is the only God there is, who is God the Father) –

I Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father", of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Care to tell me Ambassador of Christ, how come (God the Son and God The Holy Ghost) were exempted from being (The One God)?

(God – the only one there is, who is God the Father said this)-

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. [Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any].

Since (God) doesn’t know any other (God) and he made it know that he is the (Only God) there is, how come (God) doesn’t say (God the Son and God The Holy Ghost) are here with me?
*********************************************

[Note that throughout scripture, the person of the Holy Spirit is referred to as many names, including the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Father, God’s Spirit, etc.  Let context of the passage answer the question as to which person within the Godhead the writer refers.  I will give some examples:]

*********************************************
How come there aren’t four or more Gods in the Godhead?

According to the trinity doctrine, (God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost) is this one God-

If The Holy Ghost, which is God’s Spirit, is God, then why not Jesus Christ’s Spirit, be God as well?

Another thing, the bible states that (God has seven Spirits), how come all those Spirits aren’t God as well?

Tell me Ambassador of Christ, is (Love God, as well)? The bible states that (God is love).

If your answer is no, then please explain to me, how come (Love is not God as well)

I John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.  

Here is are verses that the trinity believers use to say that The Holy Ghost is God. I will put (  ) around the part that trinity believers look at to say that (The Holy Ghost is God)

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to (the Holy Ghost), and to keep back part of the price of the land?  

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, (but unto God).  

If (The Holy Ghost is God, because of those two verses, then that would make Love to be God as well, because the bible state God is Love).
*********************************************

[John 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. . . . .”

Which person within the Godhead is John referring to when he uses the word ‘God’?  The pronoun ‘He’ and ‘His’ refer back to God in this verse.  Clearly, John is referring to the Father.  Jesus Christ is the eternally begotten Son of the Father. ]

********************************************
(God is God the Father, who is the only God there is).
*********************************************

[Nowhere in scripture do we find that the Holy Spirit begot the Son.  Likewise, nowhere in scripture do we hear of the Son begetting himself.]

*********************************************St. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of (Jesus Christ) was on this wise: When as his mother Mayr was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, (she was found with child of The Holy Ghost).

Is the above verse saying that (The Holy Ghost) was (Jesus) father?
*********************************************

[Another example:

Acts 20:28  "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Which member of the Godhead does Luke refer to in this passage?  Again ‘He’ and ‘His’ in this verse refer back to God.  Which person within the Godhead shed his blood for the church?  This passage is not in reference to the persons of the Father or Holy Spirit, but to the member of the Godhead that became flesh, died on a cross, and atoned for sin with his blood.  Clearly, Jesus Christ is referred to as God in this passage.]

*********************************************
Is Jesus – The Holy Ghost?
*********************************************

[–Each person within the Godhead shares full equality and divinity, so when the bible refers to God, we know that regardless of which person it is in reference to, it is speaking of the only true God, YAHWEH.]

*********************************************
Is that true, then tell me Ambassador of Christ, how come (Jesus said this about God)

St. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: ("for my Father is greater than I".)

Would Ambassador of Christ say 10,000 is equal to 10?

Yes or No, isn’t 10,000 greater than 10? Tell me how can something that is greater than something else, be equal?

(Jesus said this)

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Since when was (God) given (power)?

*********************************************

[To correct you, the trinity doctrines state the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all make up one God.  Also note that each member is fully God, not 1/3 God.  You are correct however when you say that the Trinity doctrine states there to be only ONE GOD.  IN stating that, you in a sense answered your own question, “Which God is John talking about?”  There is only one God.  Just to specify for you, His name is YAHWEH.]

Ambassador of Christ, can you take me to the bible and show me how was (Jesus 100% God and 100% at the same time)?

Please, keep in mind that (miracles) doesn’t make (Jesus – God), because (miracles were done by other men in the bible as well)?

Another thing Ambassador of Christ, are you telling me that (Three Gods) make up (The One God – The only one there is)?

Let me do the addition for you –

God the Father = 1 God

God the Son = 1 God

God The Holy Ghost = 1 God

God the Father + God the Son + God The Holy Ghost = 3 Gods.

Tell me Ambassador of Christ, If Archieve is the body of Christ, does that make Archieve – God as well?
*********************************************

[To elaborate on my answer, I would like for you to note I cited John 1:18 from the NASB.  You will find that most modern translations will say “the only begott
en God” rather than “the only begotten Son.”  Your King James Version does not however.  This comes down to a translation issue, and I feel that the modern translations of this passage are much better.  However, if you refuse to use any version of the bible other then the KJV, I would refer you to 1 Timothy 3:16 in your bible.  I’m sure that will end your questions as to the deity of Christ, if that is something you are struggling with.]

Ambassador of Christ, I will share what both bible states for that verse, but keep in mind neither translation says, (God "came" in the flesh). The bible is clear as to who has come in the flesh. The bible says (Jesus is come in the flesh) and not (God is come in the flesh).

King James Bible:

(I Timothy 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: (God was manifest in the flesh), justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory

New American Standard

I Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the R124 mystery of godliness: (He who was revealed R125 in the flesh), Was vindicated F36 R126 in F37 the Spirit, Seen R127 by angels, Proclaimed R128 among the nations, Believed R129 on in the world, Taken R130 up in glory.  

Tell me Ambassador of Christ, does manifest and reveal, means came?
*********************************************

[If, however, you feel that after reading that verse you have a need for a better translation, I would then refer you to a more accurate translation, such as the NASB.]

*********************************************
I understand what (The King James Bible) is saying.
*********************************************

[But, back to your last question, “Is there another God that we don’t know about?”

Again, if you are looking for an answer in light of the doctrine of the Trinity to this question, you need to do more research on what the Trinity teaches.  I have defined it many times on this message board.  The first thing the doctrine of the Trinity says is that there is ONLY ONE GOD.  This answers your question.  No, there is no other God out there that we do not know of.  There is only one God; his name is YAHWEH.  We know from John 4:24 that God is not spirit, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."  We cannot see Spirit.  However, God did take on flesh and dwell on earth.  People certainly saw him, and Christ himself said that He revealed his Father.  Seeing Christ was just the same as seeing His Father in heaven.  In light of this, lets look at John 1:18 again]

Ambassador of Christ, where did (God the Son and God The Holy Ghost) come from?

No bible have those titles in them, how come they don’t?

Not even (God) mentions a (God the Son or God The Holy Ghost).
*********************************************

[John says that no one has seen God, and then goes on to say that Christ has explained him.  That already eliminates any possibility of the first word ‘GOD’ as being in reference to the Son.  Note here also that John is clearly showing that the Father and Son are separate persons.  Finally, John answers the question as to which person of the Godhead he is referring to when he refers to the Father in this passage as being explained by the Son.]

*********************************************
The only God that John was speaking about, was (The Only Ghost) there is, which is (God The Father).
*********************************************

[As to 1 John 4:12, I will quote from a commentary of this verse I believe answers it much better that I could

“’No man hath seen God at any time,….’ The same is said by the Evangelist John, Joh 1:18; but here it is observed with a different view, and upon another account; there it signifies that no man has seen and looked into the counsels and designs of God, and been able to make a discovery and declaration of his mind and will, his love and grace, and which is there ascribed to the Son of God; but here the sense is, that whereas God is invisible in his nature, and incomprehensible in his being and perfections, so that there is no coming to him, and seeing of him, and conversing with him in a familiar way, and so not of loving him as he is in himself, and ought to be loved, as one friend sees, converses with, and loves another, and finds his love increased by sight and conversation; then we ought to love the saints and people of God, who are visible, may be seen, come at, and conversed with, see; for this clause stands among the arguments and reasons for brotherly love:”   -John Gill]

*********************************************
See reply above.
*********************************************

*********************************************Ambassador of Christ, I have a question for you – tell me which (God) was (Jesus) talking about here?

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.  

Was (Jesus) talking about (God the Father or God The Holy Ghost)?

Yes or No Ambassador of Christ, isn’t it true that both (God and The Holy Ghost – are Spirits)?

I believe (God’s Truth)

(God is not a trinity)!

Love,

Archieve

[Proclaimer]

To Archieve: In response to Ambassadors post.

Ambassador quoted the following verses.
gospelcom.net has footnotes with these 2 verses when you search on them.

Acts 20
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[1] Be shepherds of the church of God,[2] which he bought with his own blood.

Footnotes

1. 20:28 Traditionally bishops
2. 20:28 Many manuscripts of the Lord

============

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[1] ,[2] who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Footnotes

1. 1:18 Or the Only Begotten
2. 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son

At the end of the day it is a translation issue as Ambassador said, but it would be foolishness to believe the trinity based on these verses. I think you are more open and honest than that.

You asked – When God sent Jesus to earth, what did he send? Well of course trinitarians will say that God sent himself, or the Son part of God who is fully God yet one of three personalities. (confusion). But here is what the scriptures say.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This should be sufficient for us believers. If others want to believe more than this, then they are entitled to an opinion, so long as they do not preach it as doctrine especially a foundational doctrine as this will cause inevitiable division.

According to the scriptures if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, then you have the correct belief. If you want, you can just ignore those who push the trinity doctrine. The fruit of their teaching is division.

I will repeat that the Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. (see Matthew 16:16-18) To divide over theologies like Oneness and Trinity is to go against the very foundation that Jesus built his Church on

[Proclaimer]

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[Ambassador of Christ]

to Archieve:

You asked many questions that I feel I have already answered. You’re asking me if I am a polytheist when I’ve clearly explained that I am a monotheist. These questions again demonstrate your misunderstanding of not only the Trinity but the Godhead as well. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. I think that will answer many of your questions. Also, a comment on your math:

Jesus= 1 God
Father= 1 God
Holy Spirit= 1 God

then you conclude that 1+1+1=3 Again. a clear misunderstanding of the biblical teaching of only ONE God as well as yet another misunderstanding of the Trinity. The 1 God in your equation is the same God. You can substitute the name YAHWEH in for ‘1 God’ as well.

I see no need to respond to these types of questions, especially in light of the fact that you are misrepresenting my position and building a straw man.

[Proclaimer]

Yeah but if you say
Father = God
Son = God
Spirit = God

Then you can say one God, but you cannot say that each one is fully God given current math. 1 God made of 3 persons makes each person a third of the one given mathematical logic.

If you say it like this: 3 persons make up one business. Each one has authority over the business and each person is fully part of that business, then that could be logical. But the problem is God is not a business, organisation or group. God is a person not an entity.

Can 3 persons make one person and yet each of those 3 persons be fully the God person which is 3 persons?

Of course at this point most trinitarians say that God is beyond our logic and we cannot possibly understand this. Is this what you say? Or do you have some other revelation of the trinity that I haven’t heard yet.

[Ambassador of Christ]

I’ve decided to stop posting. No matter how much I want to respond to ever single question you raise, in the end, you will still reject it, largely because you simply chose to misrepresent nearly everything I say. Nearly each person that has posted on this board has distorted my position, despite the MANY times I have stated it. Your last post clearly shows this:

You said "Can 3 persons make one person. . . . ."

I never said God is 3 persons in 1 person. This is not just a misunderstanding on your part of what I have been saying; it is an obvious twisting of my words. I have said over and over that God is 3 persons in one God, not 3 persons in 1 person. You have time and time again built a straw man against me, showing that you obviously have no respect for me or my position. I might not agree with your position, but at least I honestly strive to represent you for what you truly believe. I was hoping to get the same respect in return. However, I plainly haven’t. This is my last post, and I want to thank everyone for their time and patience. I’d like to thank you t8 for hosting this message board. Although we do not agree, I never feel like time spent in God’s word is a waste of time. I feel I have given God glory in rightly presenting his truth. I will keep all of you in my prayers.

I would like to leave you with one last thought:

If you are trying to understand "HOW" God is able to be 3 separate persons, each fully God, yet at the same time ONE GOD, you simply can’t. You reject this biblical truth because you cannot comprehend it. However, you cannot comprehend God’s eternality, yet I would hope you accept that. How can God be from everlasting to everlasting? How can God create something out of nothing? How can God be omnipresent? How can God possess all the qualities that make him God? If you are seeking to comprehend God, I assure you, you cannot. I cannot comprehend how God is able to do what he does; I just accept them on faith because it is in God’s word. This is not an easy out on my part; it is simply the end of the road. I have presented the biblical truth that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 separate persons. I have presented the biblical truth that each of those persons always has and always will be FULLY God. Finally, I have presented the biblical truth that there is only ONE God. This is my position: Within the ONE being that is God; there exists 3 separate, co-equal, co-eternal persons, namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is the biblical truth whether you chose to believe it or not. I say that in the most loving way that I can. If you chose to reject that truth simply because you cannot comprehend how God can do that, then in being consistent, you must also reject God’s eternality, sovereignty, and every other aspect that makes him God. I urge you to accept God’s truth on faith, not on man’s ability to comprehend the miraculous. There will come a time in your lives that you will need the true God of the bible, and I pray that if it be God’s will, you will have come to know him by then.

-God bless

[Archieve]

Ambassador of Christ,

The bible is clear that God is not the author of confusion.

God the Father + God the Son + God The Holy Ghost = 3 Gods

You, yourself has mentioned the three that makes up the Godhead as each member – you are saying that God is a member, Jesus is a member and The Holy Ghost is a member – that means there are three members.

In the bible, in Genesis God referred to the people that wanted to build the tower as being one

Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Was God saying that all those people, were one person?

According to the bible, a husband and wife are one – how is that possible, if they are two different people?

The trinity doctrine is false.

I had a trinity believer email me and confirm what I have been telling trinity believers all this time and that is trinity belivers believe in three Gods, but they deny that they do.

The man told me that a person can’t believe in a trinity without believing in three Gods.

You will not admit it Ambassador of Christ, but that’s what you believe. Pray to God that he helps you see the truth and when God does, you will admit that you were believing in three Gods.

Love,

Archieve

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for your time Ambassador:

I want to say that I wasn't building a straw man as I was simply making logical assumptions based on your teaching. I asked these questions with honest intent, as I realise that many people read this post and they deserve these answers if they are to take you seriously. We should always be ready to defend our faith and teaching in and out of season.

I think given your philosophy that you cannot believe that God is a person, rather he is an entity made up of 3 persons. I believe that we can have opinions so long as we believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (which I believe and I think that you do to, but I am not to sure). Regardless, you preach the trinity as a foundational doctrine and therefore you are responsible to give answers to what you represent. My questions are the sort of questions that a child would ask. Why, What etc. Nothing wrong in that.

From what I can see from your interpretation, you cannot say that God is a person but rather an entity or collection of persons. So if God is 3 persons, then he cannot be one person but rather a group of people. I am not saying you said this I am simply making an assumption based on your teaching and simply asking if this assumption is correct to your way of thinking.

Anyway I feel that it is the trinity that is trying to comprehend an eternal God with the mind of man, and that is why I have debated this subject with you in the first place, because we need to cast away Idols and trust in the Living God.

If it is wisdom to answer a foolish question with a foolish answer, then I suppose that I can answer a wise person with a wise answer and a Man-Made (answer) philosophy with man-made questions. You then accused me of using my own understanding to comprehend God, when all I am doing is responding with man-made questions to what I believe is a man-made philosophy. I have already given you countless scriptural reference to show that God became a Father when he begat a Son, and that the Son pre-existed before creation as the Word of God.

I do not have any grand creed, philosophy or denomination. I simply have a personal relationship with God, and I believe the scriptures. I try to read the scriptures with an innocent mind just accepting what is truth and trying to align myself with that truth. I am careful to keep away from the status quo as the majority of this world and it's people are under the sway of the Evil One. Even most of God's children are under the Devils influence to different degrees, otherwise the Church would be perfect now.

My honest intention is to seek God and his Truth with all my heart, as I believe that only God is good and I want to spend the rest of my life with him. I know that the only way to be one with God is to know his Son. As I have seen written, No Jesus no God, know Jesus know God. I get one chance at this life and I want it to be the best that I can do with what God has given me.

When I was younger I had the priveledge of being shown Heaven in a vision, and I know that God's Kingdom is worth dying for. I don't want anything to get in the way of me doing God's will. This world and all it's ideas and philosophies will pass away and they are nothing compared to the glory of God, infact they are just plain foolishness.

I am very fortunate to have seen the Glory of God and his Heaven, and I can tell you and anyone that nothing can really take the place of God. He is beautiful beyond belief. If we think we can comprehend his glory in our mind, then  I can assure anyone that we are not even close.
Anyway my experience of Heaven can be found at
 https://heavennet.net/testimonies/testimony1.htm  

Remember when Martin Luther started the Reformation he went against the staus quo in the Church, not the world.

I think most Christians are over confident if they don't believe we need another reformation, revolution and redefinition. The church is in very bad shape, and we need to come out of Babylon and reject her philosophies, gods and love of money, which I think is the very foundation of Christian city. Christian city with all it's denominations is not the Kingdom of God. We need to leave christian city and enter the Holy City of God which is built by God himself, not man. Trust in the God and his Spirit, not your own eyes and understanding.

I invite others to add to this post. But I do ask that we come with honest intentions about God and the scriptures.

[Archieve]

I will share with you all what a trinity believer has told me in email. I will not share the whole email, but only the part where he says that to believe in the trinity, you have to believe in three Gods.

I know that caps is classified as screaming, but that’s how he sent the email to me.

Quote

I DON’T KNOW WHAT TRINITY BELIEVERS YOU HAVE TALKED TO, BUT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY AND NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE THREE GODS. I SENT YOU THREE LONG LIST OF TEXTS MAKING VERY CLEAR WHAT I BELIEVE AND WHY I BELIEVE IT. YOU SEND VERY FEW TEXTS.

If Ambassador of Christ, comes back to the board, he or she can back him up or say the man is wrong.

For the record, I have only shared what the young man said, because I wanted to show what trinity believers believe, but they don’t want to admit it.

trinity believers believe in three Gods.

God says he is the only God there is – but the young man, is saying God is false

I will let God be true – for God can’t lie –

Quote

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

Love,

Archieve

[Proclaimer]

Hey Archieve,

How did you come to the conclusion that the trinity is a false doctrine?

[Archieve]

t8 wrote:

Quote

Hey Archieve, How did you come to the conclusion that the trinity is a false doctrine?

I guess because I was never taught that God was a trinity. Also because Jesus was referred to as God’s Son – how can a Son and Father be the same person?

Me and my mother weren’t the same person.

You know what else helped – knowing grammar and English.

I thank God that I was taught the truth and I believe the truth.

Love,

Archieve

[Ramblinrose]

Hi T8 and welcome to Archieve, a fellow believer of God the Father and his Son Yahshua.

Thought I’d post this verse showing the ‘God and Father’ as separate person to ‘the Lord Jesus’. We already understanding this but this verse may help others.

1 Thes 3:11
Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus clear the way for us to come to you.

The verse is self explanatory – God and Father is one person, the Lord Jesus is another (his Son).

God Bless

[Ramblinrose]

Oops, forgot to add this.

Most renditions of this same phrase have one word missing. I love the word HIMSELF in this one. So much said in just one word.

God Bless

[Proclaimer]

Good to hear from you Ramblinrose
Good verse too.
There are so many versus like this one that I just skip alot of them, but the Himself part is pretty clear.

I looked up 7 translations (NIV, NASB, RSV, KJV, DARBY, YLT & WE) on GospelNet.Com and they all said himself. There was no footnote to say that himself is only in some manuscripts, it’s probably universally accepted by the translators.

[Archieve]

Thanks for the welcome Ramblinrose

t8, I want to use quotes, but when I do, my texts come out very small, is there a reason for that?

I will use ******** instead.

trinity believers believers don’t even know what they worship. If you ask them, which one of the Gods do they worship, they will tell you they worship the one God. When, really they are worshipping a God that has three heads and a tri-body. That God is a false God

Jesus is letting them know they don’t know what they are worshipping.

********************************************
St. John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
*********************************************

According to Jesus – God’s son, God the Father is the only one to be worshipped to.

********************************************
St. John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: (for the Father seeketh such to worship him.)
********************************************

Doesn’t it seem strange that if God was a trinity that only the Father is seeking to be worshipped?

*********************************************
St. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
*********************************************

Which God is Jesus referring to as being a Spirit? The onlyl God there is which is God the Father.

According to the trinity doctrine – Jesus was 100% man and 100% God at the same time, well why doesn’t Jesus instruct people to pray to him, in this verse, if he was 100% God?

********************************************
St. Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy clouset, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to the Father, which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
*********************************************

Another thing, even Jesus, who is said to be 100% God -prayed to God the Father – Jesus wasn’t praying to himself.

*********************************************
St. Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time and prayed, saying O my Father,if this cup may be not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
*********************************************

Jesus called God his God and His Father. If you asks a trinity believer if God has a God and a Father, they will tell you no.

*********************************************
St. John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for  I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God.
*********************************************

It’s time people open their eyes to the truth.  They are the ones closing their eyes to the truth. They are choosing to believe man’s doctrine over God’s truth.

Love,

Archieve

[Ramblinrose]

The Witnesses

If the Holy Spirit is a separate person why then does Jesus not acknowledge him as a witness. Please read the following verse quoted from John 8:14-18

“Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going.  But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.  You judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one.  But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone.  I stand with the Father, who sent me.  In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.  I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

If the Holy Spirit is a person why did he not say that he had two witnesses, both the Father and the Holy Spirit.  I believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same person and this would then be in keeping with Jesus saying he had only one witness as they are one person and not two as believed by trinitarians.

[Archieve]

Ramblinrose wrote:

Quote

If the Holy Spirit is a person why did he not say that he had two witnesses, both the Father and the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same person and this would then be in keeping with Jesus saying he had only one witness as they are one person and not two as believed by trinitarians.

God and The Holy Ghost are the same. The Holy Ghost is God’s Spirit.

Love,

Archieve

[Proclaimer]

I thought I would add this as I have had some questions by email from people who think that the trinity is probably a bogus doctrine, however they still are unclear with some scriptures that could point to a trinity doctrine and they haven’t been mentioned to a great degree in the discussion so far.

Anyway feel free to continue with the discussion about the Holy Spirit, but also feel free to add or challenge anything I have written here.

——————————————–
1) BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER,
AND OF THE SON,
AND OF THE HOLY GOST" (Matt. 28:19).
——————————————–
Some scriptires mention three subjects and have been used as proof of a trinity. In 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 mentions the Spirit, Lord and God; 2 Corinthians 13:14 lists Christ, God and the Holy Ghost [Spirit]; Galatians 4:4-6 lists God, Son and Spirit of his Son; Ephesians 4:4-6 lists Spirit, Lord and God and 1 Peter 1:2 lists God, Spirit and Jesus Christ. If we were to accept such logic as proof of the Trinity, then we would be led to believe that Peter, James and John are a Trinity because they are listed together. (See Luke 9:28.) 1 Timothy 5:21 says: "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels." Does this make angels a part of the Trinity?

As far as the Baptismal formula goes, it is rather strange that every other scripture in relation to baptism mentions being baptized in Jesus name and this has lead some to believe that this text is a forgery. Many of the early Church fathers, in quoting this passage, leave out the Trinitarian formula and say simply "in my name". Whatever conclusion we draw, one thing is for certain, it doesn’t by any stretch of the imagination prove a trinity doctrine.

————————————
2) MY LORD AND MY GOD. (John 20:28).
————————————
One verse often used in an attempt to prove the Trinity doctrine is John 20:28. "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Firstly, it must be pointed out that Thomas never mentioned the Holy Spirit so we cannot derive a trinity doctrine from this verse. In addition the word God here is Theos which has been applied to the Father, Men, Angels, Idols and Satan. Further, we have many possible meanings given the context.

a) Thomas could have been referring to Jesus as his Lord and knowing this without any doubt he then could have looked up to Heaven and said my God. Remember that the Gospels are historical accounts (see Luke 1:1-4) of what happened, to show us the certainty of the things that we have been taught. We can build doctrine from the gospels (recorded events), but we must be very careful in doing so, as we are never really sure of the exact events in a visual sense.

b) My Lord and My God could have meant My Lord and my mighty one as this is a possible translation of theos (God, god, mighty one, object of worship). Remember that Jesus pointed out that those to whom the Word of God came were called "gods." (The original early manuscripts were written with all capitals. Hence, translators must decide whether to capitalize or not.)

c) Sometimes when we see something really amazing we often say My God or Dios mio (Spanish). It is very common to say this even today, but it doesn’t mean that we are saying that the amazing event is God himself. I remember saying ‘My God’ when I saw the events of September 11 on TV for the first time.

d) Thomas could of referred to Jesus as God, but he didn’t say the most High God. There are many gods after all, and you can say that anyone in authority to you is god or a god. But the God of all is the Father.

e) If we say that Jesus is God because Thomas said my Lord and my God, then maybe we should call Paul God too. See Acts 12
22 They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." (theos)
or
Acts 28: 6
The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god. (theos)

To conclude, it is obvious that we cannot derive a trinity doctrine from Thomas’s words, especially considering that he never mentioned the Holy Spirit. The gospels are a record of what happened rather than teachings of doctrine like many of Paul’s writing for example. When we look at the teachings of Paul, it becomes clear that he says time and time again that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord.

—————————————–
AND GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE:
——————————————
Yes God created Man, but God had a helper. God was talking to the Word. (Jesus Christ).

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"

Proverbs 8
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

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