The Trinity Doctrine

[charity]

If WE say the Son of MAN is GOD
THEN even glorified back to what he was in the beginning
How is it that he returns before the tribes AS the Son of MAN TO HIS THRONE WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY?

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

For he received Honor and glory and was identified as The Son of God; but even still The Son of Man comes in his glory.
2Pe 1:17
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.  

The Power OF TRUTH iS IN THE kNOWING OF The Son Of Man first

The first begotten Son is the Son of God
And the first born is the son of A Man identified as The Son God?
Receiving His fathers Inheritance that King David himself having to see corruption by the curse; could only inherit by promise through his Son Jesus; whom in all things the fathers kingdom was committed to his Hand; and belongs to the New incorruptible Image.
See here begotten one to first born; BUT MANY refuse David as the paet of the three persons that find needed
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This we need for only to Know ;How corruption turns to Incorruption to follow

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
Indeed Christ was son of God before son of man and even David.
Son of God is his highest estate.

[charity]

Hard to Hold true; And renew the mind to the will of God

If we could contain and remeber what the scriptures say so often that Jesus was Made of the seed of David;(Son Of Man) would we then say he is God? For then God was Made of David?

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.  

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:  
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
And without Gods Holy Ghost the seed of David being begotten was brought down from heaven and planted In Mary

And Later heavens opened and the renewed Holy Ghost desended DOWN upon Jesus; and he began His mission for God

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
God is not the son of man despite what nanay claims.
Rom 1 in context
“3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

It is necessary for the root of David also to be his seed.
But that does not elevate David.

[charity]

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,

So you wont Kiss Jesus the Son Of MAN?
But you will Kiss Jesus The Son of God?

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
Christ is the son of God and of Adam and David.
David rests awaiting the return of his Lord.

[charity]

And when they shall have a perpetual backslide
 missing the resurrection of THE FIRST BEGOTTEN Son;
They shall observe again the first resurrection;
and a body hast thou prepared TO DO HIS WILL;
THAT THEY CRUCIFIED AND PUT TO DEATH again;
CHRIST THE FIRST FRIUTS OF THEM THAT SLEPT
And the fathers have perished
Refusing them to return

Jer 8:1 ¶ At that time, saith the LORD, they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
Jer 8:2  And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.
Jer 8:3  And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer 8:4 ¶ Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer 8:5  Why [then] is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

[NickHassan]

Hi charity,
Christ, the root of Adam and David, is the beloved monogenes Son.

[gwhelchel]

Wow! Lots of different threads…hard to catch up.

Question: I keep hearing over and over the argument that, since the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, it must be false. The word theology is not found in the Bible. It means the study of God…thus we should not study about God? The word Soteriology is not in the Bible. It means the study of the doctrine of salvation. Thus should we disbelieve that this doctrine exists? There are many more words like this, escatology, hermaneutics, etc. The real point is that the word(s) only act as the label, the substance is what that word or label represents.

The Bible speaks about Jesus being God, the only Creator, the Savior, the First and Last, the Almighty, the Mighty God, etc. While you can find a few verses that use the word elohim in a manner that includes angels and men, no where do you find them referred to in any manner like unto how Jesus is referred.

Mere men and angels are to refuse worship. They cannot create, they do not know the thoughts and intents of our hearts, they cannot be described in the way that Jesus is described. The label elohim, as has been explained has more than one meaning and often refers to false gods. Because there are a few verses that use it of men and angels do not even come close to comparing to the way that it is used of Jesus.

Either Jesus is God, with a capital “G”, or He is merely part of the creation, a created being. If He is uncreated, if He is the Creator of everything that was created, He can only be God with a capital “G” and that creates serious problems because that leaves you with two Gods.

Also, it appears that many seem to think that the Father became the Son and thus praying to Himself would make no sense. I agree! The Father is NOT the Son and the Son is not the Father. They are two separate persons. Both are called God and the Bible teaches that there is only one God…if there is more than one God, God doesn't know it.

[NickHassan]

Hoi GW,
Has theology brought men closer to God or pushed them away?
Why must the unique monogenes son be forced into a box of your theological choice?

[Tim2]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:43)

Quote (Tim2 @ May 15 2007,12:25) Hey t8, Those are some interesting points I'm happy to discuss, as I've been discussing them with David.  First off, I'd say that we can't automatically equate Elohim in Hebrew with Theos in Greek.  Hebrews 1:6, for example, translates Elohim as angels.  I've said before that I believe Elohim to come from a Semitic tradition in which El or Elohim meant power, and was then used to refer to the gods (such as the pagan El of the Caananites), and finally YHWH revealed Himself to be the one true El, Elohim, and POWER.  My point is that Theos is used more restrictively than Elohim, the only translation of Elohim as “gods” from Hebrew to theoi in Greek that I know of is in John 10.  So let's distinguish between Hebrew and Greek, please. Next, I'd be interested in knowing where you got that definition of theos.  Can you give me examples of each use in the New Testament (at your leisure, of course)?   But of course, the main point is the context in which Theos is used of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.  I think it's clear that it means the Most High God.  John 1:1 for example.  And John 20:28 and Acts 5:4 -I don't think they were talking about other gods there!  But I think you basically agree with this, and your argument is more along the lines of “the Son and Spirit are of God, but not God in identity.” If you'd rather just talk about that, cause that really seems to be the issue here, I'm happy to do so. Tim Fair enough WJ, that may be the case. Elohim and theos are interchangeable as you pointed out, but it is not common. Then again, it is not common that Yeshua is called theos. So all I am pointing out is that the word theos may be used to describe Christ, but it also describes man and angel. So the point is that the mere usage of the word elohim or theos doesn't mean Most High God. Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' E.g., John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' The trinity doctrine draws it's strength from scriptures where Jesus is called theos. But they ignore the other verses where men, angel, idols, and Satan are called theos or elohim. This is the point. The Trinity doctrine is not scriptural. I could for example call Jesus my God. No problem there. But if I called him the Most High God, then of course I would be ignoring the fact that Jesus God and our God is actually the Father. The head of Christ is God and God is Jesus God and our God. If I was renting a house I could call the owner my landlord. But the Lord over God's creation is Christ. I am pointing out that there is an order. It is not 3 pieces in a pie. It is the branches, vine, and the vine dresser. There is a monumental leap in each step. God is invisible and so great that we cannot even see him, never mind trying to comprehend him. But Christ is visible and the only mediator. It is through him that we can see God's glory. He brings us to God. Man > Christ > God. Not, Father + Son + Spirit = God. The head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

Hey t8,

Sorry, my point was that Elohim and Theos are not interchangeable, as demonstrated in Hebrews 1:6. I believe Elohim is translated as theoi (the plural, not Theos) in John 10, but I think that's the only case. I don't think John 10 shows us that Theos doesn't always mean the Most High God in the New Testament because there's an inherent difference between the theoi, gods, and Theos, the one God. I don't believe the word Theos, in the singular, is used in the sense of an angel or man that we should follow, other than the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, once in the New Testament.

I'm still trying to understand your argument, though. You believe that Jesus is God, but not the Most High God, but also not a god. I'm finding it hard to understand how there can be an in between area there, can you explain?

But, I think you've agreed that Jesus and the Spirit are of God, correct me if I'm wrong, and that they have the same nature as the Father. So the language of the Nicene Creed seems pretty appropriate then: they are of the substance of the Father. This makes sense, that the Holy Spirit of the Father, a Spirit, would be the same substance; and that the Word, Wisdom, Power, Image, and Radiance of the Father would also be the same substance. It's not as though the Father's Wisdom, Power, and Radiance diminish as they go out from Him! Now, if you would agree that the substance of God cannot be divided, then I think you agree that God has one substance, and that Scripture gives evidence of three distinct existences of this substance, in the Father, the Son (as the Father's Word, Image, Power, etc.), and in the Holy Spirit. This is essentially what the Nicene Creed is saying. Do you agree?

Tim

[gwhelchel]

Good, and well-thought-out point… Tim2!

[NickHassan]

Hi Tim2,
Jesus is of God.
He is begotten of God
Jesus is the Son OF God.
Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

[Tim2]

Nick,

The Spirit is sent by Jesus. John 15:26.

Tim

[NickHassan]

HiTim2,
Of course.
The Spirit of God was given to Jesus.
God gives His gifts without repentance.
So Christ sends the Spirit of Christ to unite us to him and to God from whom the Spirit proceeds.

[gwhelchel]

You left off, Jesus is GOD and worthy of worship. You will one day bow your knee before Jesus and confess that He is Lord. He is also the First and the Last, the Alpha & Omega, the Mighty God, the Almighty God, the Creator, the Savior, and much more.

[olive]

707 pages discussing the trinity, wow.

What more can be covered. How did one learn of the trinity, were your taught by your church, heard it through a friend, how does one learn of the trinity teachings.

If one, for instance, not very knowning in his way, just started reading scripture, w/o any 'outside' interference, not a church or a friend. Just scripture and themselves, believing in him. With prayer and fasting. Do you think that person would believe in the trinity?

I can stand in truth, and say no. It is so surprising, how others let what man has 'written' over ride what is truth. Do we not wrestle enough w/ flesh.

Christ is the Son of YAH, if you chose to take away his honor and how he glorifies the Father, then I fear you are walking on shifting sands.

Can you remove the trinity teaching from your mind, or will it always be there, could you yourself have come up w/ the trinity teaching?

Has anyone every believed in something, then upon they self studied and meditated on the word, then found themselves being taught by the spirit, which showed you truth. To have your eyes opened to the truth.

Have we all now become 'spiritually superior', are there no more servants of Christ, are we all teachers and prophets?

Love one another, how can you take Christ and strip him of the glory he brought to the Father, how can you combine three persons, when only one came to us in the flesh.

I am not well w/ words at times, but in my heart and mind, it is so clear.

I send a challenge out to anyone willing to try. Write your trinity doctrine for a child of seven to understand. Pull your theology, fancy words, long speeches and teach the children. Explain your doctrine to a child.

What is so hard to understand, when someone see us they also see the Father, but that does not make us Christ, that makes us family, unity of the spirit.

You say you worship him, then how can you take away the love he has for the Father, how can you remove the glory he shows the Father, how can you take away his righteousness, how can you take away his blood, how can you take away his sacrifice.

We are his chosen children, we are his, why do you place his son above him. Christ worshipped one God, YAH, we are well to do the same.

Much love to your and yours, may his peace abide w/ you.

[Oxy]

http://www.all4god.net/trinity.htm

[Not3in1]

GW writes:
Either Jesus is God, with a capital “G”, or He is merely part of the creation, a created being. If He is uncreated, if He is the Creator of everything that was created, He can only be God with a capital “G” and that creates serious problems because that leaves you with two Gods.
***********************************************

Why cannot Jesus just be who he is? The Son of the living God. He is a Son. GW – do you have children? I have a son and he is not his father. He is a part of his father as he carries with him DNA given to him in the womb when he was created.

There are not two choices: Jesus is God, or a uncreated being. There is the holy testimony of God who tells us that Jesus is his Son. God didn't say, I'm sending another person (who is me through an incarnation) and in him I am well pleased.

GW writes:
The Father is NOT the Son and the Son is not the Father. They are two separate persons. Both are called God and the Bible teaches that there is only one God…if there is more than one God, God doesn't know it.
****************************
“Here we go around the mullberry-God-is-one-but-really-three-bush!!” The gospel was given to men of low to medium intelligence. Do you really think they could grasp this theology?

Olive wrote:
I send a challenge out to anyone willing to try. Write your trinity doctrine for a child of seven to understand. Pull your theology, fancy words, long speeches and teach the children. Explain your doctrine to a child.
**************************
Hi Olive, I enjoyed your post. I have offered this challenge before. You will be answered with – just because it's complicated doesn't make it true. In fact, Charles Swindoll has said, “If it's not complicated – it's not God.” So, there you go.

And yet………the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (olive @ May 16 2007,03:26)

I send a challenge out to anyone willing to try. Write your trinity doctrine for a child of seven to understand. Pull your theology, fancy words, long speeches and teach the children. Explain your doctrine to a child.

Hi Olive,

Albert Einstein once said “If you can't teach what you know to a six year old, then you don't understand it.”

Tim

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