The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,16:47)

To gwhelchel. If Jesus is the son of God, then I should by all accounts be able to read all instances of Christ in scripture and see him as the son of God with no contradiction. Similarly, if God is triune, then all instances of the true God should be complimentary as seeing him as 3 persons. The problem is that scriptures do not allow for this view. So what is the conclusion? Perhaps you should question this doctrine, after all it was added hundreds of years later after the last book in the bible was written and it was enforced by a Roman Emperor with threats of death and persecution. Does the truth produce such fruit? You will know them by their fruits as it is written. History is but another witness as to the destructiveness of this doctrine.

t8

Not true t8. The trinity was around in the early first century.

Not only is it found in scriptures but early church Fathers taught it. For instance Ignatius a desciple of the beloved John who called the Word God.

Ignatius of Antioch

Estimated Range of Dating: 105-115 C.E.[/U][/B]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and *Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace*.

Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves *by the blood of God* (see Acts 20:28), ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you.

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.

We have also as a Physician *the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, Or, “before the ages. but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh. John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

For he who shall both “do and teach, the same shall be great in the kingdom. Matt. v. 19. *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.

*For our God, Jesus Christ*, was, according to the appointment Or, “economy,” or “dispensation.” Comp. Col. i. 25; 1 Tim. i. 4. of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

Hence worldly wisdom became folly; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man, and man displaying power as God.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians

He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, *was God the Word,* the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for “of His kingdom there shall be no end,

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iii.html

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians

For they *alienate Christ from the Father*, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; *and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists*. Some of them say that *the Son is a mere man*, and that *the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person*, and that *the creation is the work of God, not by Christ*, but by some other strange power.

Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with *Jesus Christ our God*, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles.

For indeed God and man are not the same. *He truly assumed a body; for “the Word was made flesh*, John i. 14. and lived upon earth without sin.

Mary then did truly conceive a *body which had God inhabiting it*. And *God the Word* was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. *He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin*, but without any intercourse of man. He was carried in the womb, even as we are, for the usual period of time; and was really born, as we also are;
and was in reality nourished with milk, and partook of common meat and drink, even as we do. And when He had lived among men for thirty years, He was baptized by John, really and not in appearance; and when He had preached the Gospel three years, and done signs and wonders, He who was Himself the Judge was judged by the Jews, falsely so called, and by Pilate the governor; was scourged, was smitten on the cheek, was spit upon; He wore a crown of thorns and a purple robe; He was condemned: He was crucified in reality, and not in appearance, not in imagination, not in deceit. He really died, and was buried, and rose from the dead,

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iv.html

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to* the love of Jesus Christ our God*

…who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, abundance of happiness unblameably, in* Jesus Christ our God*.

the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of *Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour;*

*For our God, Jesus Christ*, now that He is with [or in] the Father, is all the more revealed [in his glory]. Christianity is not a thing of silence only, but also of [manifest] greatness.

Permit me to be an imitator of *the passion of Christ, my God*. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.v.html

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

Since, also, there is but *one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father*; and *one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man*; and *one Comforter, the Spirit of truth*; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism;

If any one confesses *the Father, and the Son, and the Holy
Ghost*, and praises the creation, but calls the incarnation merely an appearance, and is ashamed of the passion, such an one has denied the faith, not less than the Jews who killed Christ. If any one confesses these things, and that *God the Word did dwell in a human body, being within it as the Word*, even as the soul also is in the body, *because it was God that inhabited it, and not a human soul*, but affirms that unlawful unions are a good thing, and places the highest happiness in pleasure, as does the man who is falsely called a Nicolaitan, this person can neither be a lover of God, nor a lover of Christ, but is a corrupter of his own flesh, and therefore void of the Holy Spirit, and a stranger to Christ.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vi.html

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnæans

*I GLORIFY God, even Jesus Christ*, who has given you such wisdom.

*I give glory to Jesus Christ the God* who
bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived
that ye are established in faith immovable, being as
it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ,

being fully persuaded, in very truth, with respect to our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature, *God the Word, the only-begotten Son*, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; was baptized by John, that all righteousness might be fulfilled  by Him; that He lived a life of

For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have. And He says to Thomas, “Reach hither
thy finger into the print of the nails, and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side; and immediately they believed that He was Christ. Wherefore *Thomas also says to Him, “My Lord, and my God*. And on this account also did they despise death, for it were too little to say, indignities and stripes.

For what does it profit, if any one commends me, *but blasphemes my Lord, not owning Him to be God incarnate?* He that does not confess this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as *they are unbelievers*; and far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent.

Ye have done well in receiving Philo and Rheus Agathopus as *servants of Christ our God*, who have followed me for the sake of God, and who give thanks to the Lord in your behalf, because ye have in every way refreshed them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.vii.html

The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp

To Polycarp
8:3  I bid you farewell always *in our God Jesus
Christ*, in whom abide ye in the unity and supervision
of God. I salute Alce, a name very dear to me. Fare ye
well in the Lord.

Grace shall be with him for ever, and with Polycarp that sends him. I pray for your happiness *for ever in our God, Jesus Christ*, by whom continue ye in the unity and under the protection of God, I salute Alce, my dearly beloved. Fare ye well in the Lord.

Look for Christ, the Son of God; who was before time, yet appeared in time; who was invisible by nature, yet visible in the flesh; who was impalpable, and could not be touched, as being without a body, but for our sakes became such, might be touched and handled in the body; *who was impassible as God, but became passible for our sakes as man; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes.*

For he who shall both “do and teach, the same shall be great in the kingdom.
*Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.

*For our God, Jesus Christ*, was, according to the appointment Or, “economy,” or “dispensation.” Comp. Col. i. 25; 1 Tim. i. 4. of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

Hence worldly wisdom became folly; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man, and man displaying power as God.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.viii.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ts.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ot.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.html

So we see that the claim the Trinity was an invention of Constantine or Athanasius is a lie.

[gwhelchel]

Dear Charity:

I must go to bed, I am exhausted…I would love to hear more from you…what YOU believe…what are YOUR questions.

Tonight I say goodnight…may God bless each of you!!!!

[Not3in1]

WJ,
Thanks for the websites. I'll check them out.

[Proclaimer]

To WJ.

The Trinity doctrine developed over time. It wasn't and isn't taught in scripture. Also, you do not seem to understand that the word God is not always used in reference to the Most High. If it were, then not only is Jesus God, but so are men and angels, even Satan.

So the mere use of the word God doesn't prove the Trinity doctrine does it?

Can you admit that the word theos and elohim refer to many? Because if you can, then you have your answer.

But if you cannot, then you have to also believe that angels and men/judges are also God.

They are your choices from what I can see from what you believe.

[Tim2]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:15)

Quote (Tim2 @ May 15 2007,11:55) Hey t8, Well that really is the problem -we do see the word God used of the Son and the Holy Spirit!  John 1:1, John 20:28, Acts 5:4, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1.  If the God in these verses is not referring to the Most High God, then you're left with the concludsion that the Son and the Spirit are two lesser gods.  Do you believe that? Tim Hi Tim2. Jesus is not the Most High God. The word theos and elohim refer to more than just YHWH. This can be plainly seen in scripture. Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word 'theos'. 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead 3) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges Men/Judges E.g., John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' False gods Exodus 20:23 Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold. Men/Judges Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' Angels Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)! These scriptures show us that the word 'God' is actually a term and is not always used to describe the Most High God, rather it is a term that can apply to many types of authority. It is very important to read each verse in its correct context e.g., The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age. In other words the type of God that is being referred to is determined by the adjective or context of the sentence. It is incorrect to read the word 'God' as the Most High God in every case. In fact the very term 'Most High God' leads us to conclude that there must be lesser gods. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Ephesians 4:4-6 4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called   5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Jesus is not the one God and Father of all. He is the one Lord who was made Lord by God. Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Hey t8,

Those are some interesting points I'm happy to discuss, as I've been discussing them with David. First off, I'd say that we can't automatically equate Elohim in Hebrew with Theos in Greek. Hebrews 1:6, for example, translates Elohim as angels. I've said before that I believe Elohim to come from a Semitic tradition in which El or Elohim meant power, and was then used to refer to the gods (such as the pagan El of the Caananites), and finally YHWH revealed Himself to be the one true El, Elohim, and POWER. My point is that Theos is used more restrictively than Elohim, the only translation of Elohim as “gods” from Hebrew to theoi in Greek that I know of is in John 10. So let's distinguish between Hebrew and Greek, please.

Next, I'd be interested in knowing where you got that definition of theos. Can you give me examples of each use in the New Testament (at your leisure, of course)?

But of course, the main point is the context in which Theos is used of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. I think it's clear that it means the Most High God. John 1:1 for example. And John 20:28 and Acts 5:4 -I don't think they were talking about other gods there! But I think you basically agree with this, and your argument is more along the lines of “the Son and Spirit are of God, but not God in identity.” If you'd rather just talk about that, cause that really seems to be the issue here, I'm happy to do so.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,11:48) t8. Where is it written that the Word is “A” god? As far as I know it is not written. John 1:1 doesn't have an article before the last word God. It doesn't say THE or A from what I understand. Sometimes translators put in A to complete the thought however. E.g., “One of you is A devil.” But I don't hold to the teaching that Jesus is a god (John1:1). I believe that his nature is divine (comes from God) but that he is not God in identity. In identity he is the Word of God, the son of God, the Messiah of God, the power and wisdom of God. But he is not the God that he is of.

t8

Have you changed your belief?

For you have said on this forum it is not wrong to say Jesus is God!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,17:19)

Dear Charity: I must go to bed, I am exhausted…I would love to hear more from you…what YOU believe…what are YOUR questions. Tonight I say goodnight…may God bless each of you!!!!

GW

Good night!

Lord bless!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 15 2007,12:14)

Hey t8, I understand what you're saying, if you mean that the Son is distinct from the Father. But if He is, as you say, the Word, wisdom, and power of God, doesn't that, as you come close to saying, mean that He has the same nature as the Father? This is what the Nicene Creed is trying to say: that which is of the Father, although not the Father in identity, is of the same substance as the Father. This seems to be what you're getting at, in which case I'm very hopeful. Tim

Tim I don't have any problems accepting that Jesus is divine in that he has the nature of his Father and God. After all he is a son of God and the son of man. I believe this and teach it.

I can also accept that he emptied himself and took on human nature for a time and walked as a man here on earth and was tempted as all men are.

It is when the creeds or people start promoting the Roman Catholic faith that I disagree strongly with:

And the Catholic Faith is this,

that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity isTrinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man…

The above is a ridiculous lie and scripture contradicts it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,12:27)

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,11:48) t8. Where is it written that the Word is “A” god? As far as I know it is not written. John 1:1 doesn't have an article before the last word God. It doesn't say THE or A from what I understand. Sometimes translators put in A to complete the thought however. E.g., “One of you is A devil.” But I don't hold to the teaching that Jesus is a god (John1:1). I believe that his nature is divine (comes from God) but that he is not God in identity. In identity he is the Word of God, the son of God, the Messiah of God, the power and wisdom of God. But he is not the God that he is of. t8 Have you changed your belief? For you have said on this forum it is not wrong to say Jesus is God!

I will say it again for you WJ.

Jesus is not the Most High God.

Many are referred to as God in scripture (theos and elohim).

Includes: men, angels, Satan, Jesus, the Father.

That is what I say. You don't have to add to my words. They are here for you, plain and simple.

[charity]

Quote (gwhelchel @ May 14 2007,17:19)

Dear Charity: I must go to bed, I am exhausted…I would love to hear more from you…what YOU believe…what are YOUR questions. Tonight I say goodnight…may God bless each of you!!!!

Thanks gwhelchel

Goodnight and God bless you

GOD IS GOOD

[Tim2]

Hey t8,

If you're willing to believe the Nicene Creed, well, that would just be great.

So, back to the issue, you believe Jesus is divine and has the nature of the Father. My question then is in what ways do you believe Jesus to be different than the Father? I mean, is there anything about His nature, prior to His becoming man, that was different than the Father's nature? Do you believe the Word and the Father had exactly the same nature?

I'm excited to hear this from you, t8.

Tim

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 15 2007,12:25)

Hey t8, Those are some interesting points I'm happy to discuss, as I've been discussing them with David. First off, I'd say that we can't automatically equate Elohim in Hebrew with Theos in Greek. Hebrews 1:6, for example, translates Elohim as angels. I've said before that I believe Elohim to come from a Semitic tradition in which El or Elohim meant power, and was then used to refer to the gods (such as the pagan El of the Caananites), and finally YHWH revealed Himself to be the one true El, Elohim, and POWER. My point is that Theos is used more restrictively than Elohim, the only translation of Elohim as “gods” from Hebrew to theoi in Greek that I know of is in John 10. So let's distinguish between Hebrew and Greek, please. Next, I'd be interested in knowing where you got that definition of theos. Can you give me examples of each use in the New Testament (at your leisure, of course)? But of course, the main point is the context in which Theos is used of Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. I think it's clear that it means the Most High God. John 1:1 for example. And John 20:28 and Acts 5:4 -I don't think they were talking about other gods there! But I think you basically agree with this, and your argument is more along the lines of “the Son and Spirit are of God, but not God in identity.” If you'd rather just talk about that, cause that really seems to be the issue here, I'm happy to do so. Tim

Fair enough WJ, that may be the case.

Elohim and theos are interchangeable as you pointed out, but it is not common. Then again, it is not common that Yeshua is called theos. So all I am pointing out is that the word theos may be used to describe Christ, but it also describes man and angel. So the point is that the mere usage of the word elohim or theos doesn't mean Most High God.

Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

E.g., John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

The trinity doctrine draws it's strength from scriptures where Jesus is called theos. But they ignore the other verses where men, angel, idols, and Satan are called theos or elohim.

This is the point. The Trinity doctrine is not scriptural.

I could for example call Jesus my God. No problem there. But if I called him the Most High God, then of course I would be ignoring the fact that Jesus God and our God is actually the Father.

The head of Christ is God and God is Jesus God and our God.

If I was renting a house I could call the owner my landlord. But the Lord over God's creation is Christ.

I am pointing out that there is an order. It is not 3 pieces in a pie. It is the branches, vine, and the vine dresser. There is a monumental leap in each step. God is invisible and so great that we cannot even see him, never mind trying to comprehend him. But Christ is visible and the only mediator. It is through him that we can see God's glory. He brings us to God.

Man > Christ > God.
Not, Father + Son + Spirit = God.

The head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Tim2.

I have to pick my wife and child up now. I will back when I get home.

I would love to carry on conversing with you.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,17:23)

To WJ. The Trinity doctrine developed over time. It wasn't and isn't taught in scripture. Also, you do not seem to understand that the word God is not always used in reference to the Most High. If it were, then not only is Jesus God, but so are men and angels, even Satan. So the mere use of the word God doesn't prove the Trinity doctrine does it? Can you admit that the word theos and elohim refer to many? Because if you can, then you have your answer. But if you cannot, then you have to also believe that angels and men/judges are also God. They are your choices from what I can see from what you believe.

t8

No I dont admit the word “theos” in the NT to the apostles meant something other than God or the enemys of God. The word Theos in NT scriptures only refer to the Father and the Son as true Theos.

1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.

All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, except 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly. And 1 time Yeshua refers to an OT quote while under the law. But NT apostles new the word Theos means God or the oposite. OT agency was no more.

I checked them all.

Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.

Neither is there any example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a living man or king or lord of the most high *in that day* other than Yeshua.

This is important t8, because to the Apostles “Theos” meant God!

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You say he is just divine.

John knew exactly what the word “Theos” meant to him, because in every other place the word is used for Yeshua, he used this word when he could have used another?

Do you think he would create this kind of confusion by using “Theos” in John 1:1 as well as John 20:28?

Why didnt he use “chrematizo, Acts 10:22, Heb 11:7”

or

“theios, 2 Pet 1:3,4, which by the way is used by Peter for divine nature and power, which you try to force this word to mean that we are equal to Yeshua or the Father in being. Yeshua *is* divine, “Theos”,  not “Theios” which is what we share”, This word is found only these 3 times in scripture. Which describes his nature and not his being.

or

“theotes, Col 2:9”

or

“theiotes” Rom 1:20″

Why didnt John use one of these words instead of “Theos” in John 1:1?

Why didn't Paul or Peter or Timothy or Titus use one of the other words?

You talk about being consistant with the word “Theos”.

It seems to me that being consistant with “Theos” is exactly what over 600 Greek and Hebrew scholars did when they translated  John 1:1.

Isnt this enough for you t8?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,12:51)

t8 No I dont admit the word “theos” in the NT to the apostles meant something other than God or the enemys of God. The word Theos in NT scriptures only refer to the Father and the Son as true Theos.

Shall we throw these scriptures out then WJ.

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

Shall we throw these ones out too?
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 14 2007,18:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 15 2007,12:51) t8 No I dont admit the word “theos” in the NT to the apostles meant something other than God or the enemys of God. The word Theos in NT scriptures only refer to the Father and the Son as true Theos. Shall we throw these scriptures out then WJ. Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)! Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' Shall we throw these ones out too? https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

t8

You didnt read the post did you.

*Give me one example in the NT where the word “Theos” is ascribed to an Angel or living man or King other than the Father and Yeshua.*

The Apostles only used this Word for the Father and Yeshua as true God.

Any other time it was used was for the enemys or opposites like satan or the man of sin.

Jesus use of the word was in quoting OT scripture to the Pharisees while under OT Law.

“Theos” in refering to the true God was only used for Yeshua and the Father.

Again, *Give me one example in the NT where the word “Theos” is ascribed to an Angel or living man or King other than the Father and Yeshua.*

[Anonymous]

kenrch

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kenrch  We are God's Representives on earth if indeed we have His Spirit living in us! The Son of man full of Jehovah. What about His brethren?

The Son of man according to the scripture is Yahweh
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.(ASV)     His brethren are not Yahweh.
gwwhelchel

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gwwhelchel What does “Son of God” mean? Is He a created being? Is He God? Do you have a little God beside your big God?

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ASV) There is no mention here about a little God. It says that Yeshua was God.
t8

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I will say it again for you WJ. Jesus is not the Most High God.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(ASV)
The Bible is so simple to understand unless you have a bias against the truth

[WhatIsTrue]

gwhelchel wrote:

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So, sticking only to the second commandment, how does one worship the Father through the Son and not break the second commandment if the Son is not co-equal with the Father?

Premise check:
Where does scripture say that we must “worship the Father through the Son“?

If you refer instead to Yeshua as the way to the Father, then I would ask how this is different than the children of Israel having to go through Moses to get to YHWH.  In fact, scripture clearly shows Moses' role with the children of Israel, as a representative of YHWH to them, (Exodus 4:16), as the archetype for the coming Messiah:

Deuteronomy 18:
“15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.“

[NickHassan]

Quote (nanay @ May 15 2007,02:28)

kenrch Quote kenrch  We are God's Representives on earth if indeed we have His Spirit living in us! The Son of man full of Jehovah. What about His brethren? The Son of man according to the scripture is Yahweh Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.(ASV)     His brethren are not Yahweh. gwwhelchel Quote gwwhelchel What does “Son of God” mean? Is He a created being? Is He God? Do you have a little God beside your big God? Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ASV) There is no mention here about a little God. It says that Yeshua was God. t8 Quote I will say it again for you WJ. Jesus is not the Most High God. Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (ASV) The Bible is so simple to understand unless you have a bias against the truth

Hi nanay,
So God is a son of Man?
hmmm

[Not3in1]

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “My Trinity, my Trinity, why hast thou forsaken me?” If He is part of the Trinity, then He would need to be schizophrenic to have said those words.

Do you really believe that those who believe the doctrine of the trinity are that stupid?
*************

I've never understood this part: If Jesus is an incarnation of God Almighty (and all that that means), why did he have to pray at all? Wasn't God with him and literally “him” all along? Jesus is God, right?

Schizo ideas come from un-biblical ideas: three but one, fully man and fully God. These are the languages of men. God did not use this language. I challenge any Trinitarian alive to show me in scripture where GOD SAYS he is three, and yet one God.

God is not conducting a guessing game. He isn't waiting to see who will be wise enough to crack the code. He has already told us who he is. God does not change his mind. If he said he is not a man – then he is not now, never has been, never will be – a man (that includes, but not limited to, “half” men). If he cannot be tempted by evil – he never will be in ANY FORM. If he is the only one who is immortal – then he will never die. Furthermore, if God is the only one who is immortal…..then I'm only left to believe he could not incarnate into a body that could die. What does the immortal God have in common with the mortal man that a “body” could contain him? Not even heaven can contain him.

Dressing our faith up with logic and reason is a well dressed cat, indeed.

[Author]

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