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The gauntlet has been thrown down by gwhelchel:
Quote I presented an answer that you obviously don't like, but I would ask that you at least offer me the courtesy of answering the questions I have asked. If my points are weak, you should find it rather easy to prove them wrong. 2 Tim. 2:15 commends us to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” Paul commended the Bereans (Acts 17:11) because “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” I thought gwhelchel's posts were excellent. It would be good to see some one, any one, who disagrees with her points to show why they are wrong.
Let's dispense with the excuses, equivocation and ad hominems.
Not3in1
Quote In fact, I rather enjoy Nick's one or two sentence posts – they do exactly what I imagine he intends them to…..they get us to think and to share the truth that we know. From reading of the above, does these one or two sentence posts allow Nick to do any thinking of his own? Or is it that he is avoiding giving gwhelchel a straight answer from the bible because perhaps he has none. It is easy to post one or two sentences of irrelevent garbage that to address the issue at hand. Have I misunderstood what is going on?
NickQuote Hi and welcome gw,
This is a scriptural site.
Why waste time with speculative theories?
Why not work just with what is written as the rest is of the folly of men?Nick if as you say this is a scriptural site, why is it then that you avoid a scriptural discussion with gwhelchel? Can we expect bible discussion from you or be resigned to more of the same from you?
You fight hard to overthrow the windmill!
Your argument is that I believe in the Trinity, that the Trinity is wrong, thus you do not need to answer my questions.
I am not arguing the Trinity. I am asking how your understanding of the personage of the Son fits into what is taught in the First and Second Commandments. It is not “one” simple question, or one verse. This is a complex question. Thus far you have not addressed even one issue I brought up.
At the top of this page it says, “Seek and you will find…” I'm seeking and finding little more than insults and rock throwing. Truth would be able to defend…tradition would hold onto their opinion and refuse to be confused by facts.
Are you Jehovah's Witnesses?
Oh, and welcome GW. I'm one of the heritics here, pleased to meet you! I speak from a women's point of view, so sometimes I speak more from ideas and stories versus quoting all of scripture. Besides, I see that doesn't really help in getting a point accross anyway (no matter how eloquent or organized).
___
It seems that you are right. Quoting Scripture doesn't seem to help in getting a point across here, even when quoted eloquently and in an organized manner. It seems that what is valued is ideas and stories.Well, I too am a woman, but what I speak is Scripture, not ideas and stories. What I get back are personal insults and attacks. What do you fear and why do you only fight against the straw men you have constructed?
“Straw man” is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched (and, in my case), unanswered.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 13 2007,03:58) The Second Commandment, Ex. 20:4-6, forbids us to make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. We are not to bow down before or serve this image. The Second Commandment does not merely repeat and amplify the First Commandment by forbidding us again to worship any god other than the one true God. The Second Commandment goes one step further than the First by forbidding the worship of the one true God through any image—even one representing Jehovah God Himself. God knows that man is incapable of worshipping God through anything or anyone without transferring some of the love and adoration intended and directed toward Him to the image or representative. Think of the reverence that is given to many religious symbols (e.g., the cross, statues or pictures of Jesus, the nativity at Christmas, etc.). While one may not actually worship that symbol, it has, because of it’s symbolism and what it represents, more importance than a like image without the religious significance.
The Israelites fashioned a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. They intended this image to represent the God of Israel who had led them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:4-5). The Israelites were not worshipping “another god”; they were not breaking the First Commandment. They were instead worshipping Jehovah through an image they begged Aaron to make to represent the God who brought them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:8) and thus, were breaking the Second Commandment. The result was the death of 3,000 Israelites (Ex. 32:9, 10, 27, 18; Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-21). God was very clear. The penalty for worshipping Him through an image, likeness, or representative of Himself is death.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.
Did the writers of the New Testament really teach that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son and thus worship of the Father through the Son (because they were one God) was the same as worship of God…or did they teach that Jesus was merely a representative… never to be worshipped as God but only shown respect?
“The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3)”.“…And Representive of Jehovah.. “
That describes Jesus' Deity, don't you think?
BTW that's what we are suppose to be!
Quote “The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3)”. “…And Representive of Jehovah.. “
That describes Jesus' Deity, don't you think?
BTW that's what we are suppose to be!
Not just a “Representive of Jehovah” but Yahweh HimselfJer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness. (ASV)Quote (nanay @ May 14 2007,01:05) Quote “The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3)”. “…And Representive of Jehovah.. “
That describes Jesus' Deity, don't you think?
BTW that's what we are suppose to be!
Not just a “Representive of Jehovah” but Yahweh HimselfJer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness. (ASV)
If we are forgiven of sin then we have no sin. Just as Jesus had no sin. If we are born again then we have the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus has the Holy Spirit.Satan who deceives the whole world has Christians thinking they are nothing! Jesus is everything and He IS! But we are His brethren and are children of God as He is! The fruits of the church are to raise the dead, heal the sick, do even greater miracles than Jesus.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?We are God's Representives on earth if indeed we have His Spirit living in us!
The Son of man full of Jehovah. What about His brethren?
IHN&L,
Ken
Straw man, Straw man……….everyone says the “other” is building a Straw man. Stick around long enough GW and you will see that the insults and attacks are not personal – they are given freely to everyone, regardless of your theology, stories or ideas.
Go ahead and dazzle us with your knowledge and wisdom from the scriptures. I hope to learn from you as I learn from everyone. Just don't think that your brand of wisdom will change anyone's mind. You will only get tired and worn-out if that is your goal.
Debating scripture has it's place. So also does sharing stories and ideas. Do not downplay one over the other. We live in the real world, most of the time. After all, scripture is all about the greatest story ever told – how a Father sent his Son into a world that didn't deserve such a gift.
All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched (and, in my case), unanswered.
*********GW, what is it that you really want an answer to? Do you think that you are untouchable? Your self-esteem must be bubbling….
You have knit together many verses which seem to say that God is himself AND two other “persons.” However, these verses can also be shown to prove otherwise. I believe that is why Nick and others, myself included, do not “answer” with lengthly posts in rebuttal. We would rather answer saying, “Show us the Trinity.”
You cannot SHOW US THE TRINITY. God is One. He will never be three. Only in your mind, as you interpret scripture, will you find three (because your creed tells you there are three).
We have scriptures that have been brought to the table showing God is One. Indeed, there are too many to list. What does it matter to you? You will bring all your scriptures to the table that are pieced together that seem to say God is three. GOD SAYS he is One. YOU SAY he is three (by your puffed-up wisdom you deduce this).
I do not deduce. I trust God. God does not change his mind. God is not a man (or half man). God is the Father. God is One. You have to post page after pages of scripture to prove otherwise. That is not a worthy opponent, that is pride-gone-a-muck.
I do not think myself untouchable, I am not being prideful, my self-esteem is not bubbling, my pride has not gone-a-muck, my wisdom is not “puffed up”, I am not deducing…you're pretty good at “name-calling.” I am doing what is commanded by studying the Scriptures to see if these things are true.
I do not believe that there are three Gods. I do not believe what I believe because a Creed told me to do so. You obviously do not understand or even know what I believe and yet you jump to a conclusion without verifying what or why I believe it.
I believe that the Bible teaches that there is one God and that He has told us that He would not create another god/God and that there is no one and nothing that compares to Him. There is the one true God and all others that are called god/God are false gods. He does not stutter in telling us that. God tells us that if there is another God/god, He doesn't know it. He makes no room for a big real God and a little real God. He also tells us that He will not share His glory nor can we worship Him alongside of anyone or anything else. He clearly identifies Himself as a jealous God exacting exclusive devotion…not “almost” exclusive devotion.
Don't merely dismiss these questions by arguing that they teach a creed. They teach what they teach and, God's Truth is able to embrace all the Truth He has revealed. I really want to know how you reconcile these different teachings.
If there is only one God and He demands exclusive devotion, and I believe it to be so, how do you explain the verses that identify Jesus as God (not as the Father) and then command us to have faith in Jesus' name, to follow Jesus, to come to the Father through Jesus?
Your words: “Stick around long enough GW and you will see that the insults and attacks are not personal – they are given freely to everyone, regardless of your theology, stories or ideas.” This is a sad commentary on the way others are treated!
Wow! And I thought I had it rough here. These attacks against gwhelchel are outrageous. David and Kenrch are the only ones who have made any attempt to respond to what she actually wrote. And Nick, shame on you, you're an administrator of this forum, and you won't even respond to what a guest has to say. t8, what sort of website are you trying to run here, where your administrators run wild? But I admire you gwhelchel for staying here in spite of this onslaught of “insults and attacks.” Any third party reading these pages would clearly see that you've made valid points from Scripture that no one except Kenrch has even addressed. Let's hope there are such observers …
Now to respond to Kenrch, I don't think Scripture ever says that any believer or even the church as a whole is “the exact representation” of the Father's hypostasis. Nor is the church called “God with us.” And while the church partakes of the Holy Spirit, as you say, the Holy Spirit partakes of Jesus! John 16:14. Everyone here agrees more or less that the Spirit is God. How is it that God partakes of Jesus, if Jesus is a created being?
Tim
By the way, welcome nanay!
It seems that you too are a fellow believer in Jesus our God. I hope you brave the storm of insults and attacks that the heretics level at you instead of responding to your arguments. But if there are any seekers here, or who come here, they need to hear you. God bless,
TimHi Nick,
Then the finger of God is sent by Jesus? John 15:26? If Jesus isn't God, why does God's finger obey Jesus?
Tim
Hi and welcome nanay,
We have many who come here hoping to sell a patchwork human creation drawn from scripture that tries to show our God is not the One God of the Jews but a multipersonality being where one of the members is even the spirit of God. It does not wash and 1800 years of traditional fiddling has not made it any more plausible. The emperor is still wearing no clothes.
Some pretend to be personally injured when shown these things which is sad but they would be wiser to listen to the plain voice of God in scripture. God is one and Jesus is the Son of God.Hi Tim2,
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and is shown as the finger of God in Lk11 cf Matt12, which ever proceeds from God,
and is given to the one who has proceeded from, and come from God, Jesus Christ,
and to us, to make us all one in Him in that same one Holy Spirit.Once again, not one verse cited…not one issue addressed…and you claim that the “emperor” is wearing no clothing? How could anyone pretend to be personally injured when shown “these things” when you show nothing and offer nothing??? I am, however, insulted when personal attacks are made against me as a person and I am called names. You are right, this is sad that we can speak and examine only of SOME of the words of God in Scripture. What do we do with those that are difficult to understand or appear to disagree with our creed? Do we remove them from our Bibles or scribble them out or just pretend that they are not there?
What does “Son of God” mean? Is He a created being? Is He God? Do you have a little God beside your big God?
Hi GW,
Some offer us a straw God created by men of three babylonian parts and then seem surprised when it disappears in smoke when the blowtorch of scriptual truth is applied to it.
There is no trinity taught in scripture. Accept it. Get over it. Let's put aside the joys of greek debating for the simpler task of knowing and loving the God Who sent His Son.A blowtorch? I don't even see a candle flame. What scriptural truth has been applied to what? A straw God? Mine is very real and I do not fear standing verse-to-verse and/or blowtorch-to-blowtorch with you regarding what I believe.
You really are not willing to answer or really look at any issue–are you? Why did you create and why do you run this forum? Why does your signature say “test all things, hold fast to what is good”? Why do you shy away from testing anything that doesn't fit with your opinion and/or creed?
You are right, the word “trinity” is not in the Bible. I've accepted it, gotten over it, and have no wish to discuss it. I haven't asked that question even one time.
I have asked you about the Son…who you think He is and what “Son of God” means to you. How is He God when the Father says that He created and knows of no other God? This is NOT a question about the trinity or the Greek language. It is a question about Jesus. Who and what is Jesus? How does your understanding of Jesus fit with the First and Second Commandments?
Why do you continue to hide behind taunts and name calling?
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