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The Second Commandment, Ex. 20:4-6, forbids us to make any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. We are not to bow down before or serve this image. The Second Commandment does not merely repeat and amplify the First Commandment by forbidding us again to worship any god other than the one true God. The Second Commandment goes one step further than the First by forbidding the worship of the one true God through any image—even one representing Jehovah God Himself.
God knows that man is incapable of worshipping God through anything or anyone without transferring some of the love and adoration intended and directed toward Him to the image or representative. Think of the reverence that is given to many religious symbols (e.g., the cross, statues or pictures of Jesus, the nativity at Christmas, etc.). While one may not actually worship that symbol, it has, because of it’s symbolism and what it represents, more importance than a like image without the religious significance.
The Israelites fashioned a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. They intended this image to represent the God of Israel who had led them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:4-5). The Israelites were not worshipping “another god”; they were not breaking the First Commandment. They were instead worshipping Jehovah through an image they begged Aaron to make to represent the God who brought them out of Egypt (Ex. 32:8) and thus, were breaking the Second Commandment. The result was the death of 3,000 Israelites (Ex. 32:9, 10, 27, 18; Neh. 9:18; Ps. 106:19-21). God was very clear. The penalty for worshipping Him through an image, likeness, or representative of Himself is death.
The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.
Did the writers of the New Testament really teach that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son and thus worship of the Father through the Son (because they were one God) was the same as worship of God…or did they teach that Jesus was merely a representative… never to be worshipped as God but only shown respect?
Jehovah says that no God was formed before Him and none will be after Him (Isa. 43:10). If there is another God, Jehovah reveals, that He is unaware of that fact (Isa. 44:8). Apart from Jehovah, all that men call Gods must, therefore, be false gods. In the First Commandment, Ex. 20:2-3, the one true God forbids the worship of any god other than Himself. Jehovah demands that He ALONE is to be worshipped (Ex. 23:24; Dt. 4:15-26; 6:13-15; 11:16; 17:2-7; 29:26-28; Jd. 2:11-12, 17; I Ki. 9:9; 2 Ki. 17:35-36; Jer. 2:13; Mt. 4:10; Lk. 4:8; Acts 10:25-26; Rom. 1:25-26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9). To worship another god, even to a lesser degree, is idolatry.
What then constitutes worship? Moses explains that worshipping another god would include mentioning the name of another god, swearing by another god’s name, serving another god, or bowing down to another god (Josh. 23:7; Ex. 23:13). Moses adds that worship also includes fearing other gods or following them (Dt. 6:13-15). Job reveals that throwing a kiss to anything created would not only be worship but also a denial of the true God (Job 31:26-28). Jehovah explains that His people are in a marriage relationship to Him (Jer. 2:2; 3:14; 13:27; 31:32; Hos. 8:9) and, therefore, the worship of another god is adultery (Jer. 3:8, 9; Ezek. 16:32; 23:37; Mt. 8:38; Rev. 2:22). Since everything that is not God was created by God, nothing but God can be worshipped even to a lesser degree (Rom. 1:25-26; Dt. 4:15-19; Job 31:26-28).
The writers of the New Testament were prophets of God only if they truly spoke and wrote the words of Jehovah God. Jehovah warned the Jews that they must test all prophets. “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul…And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee” (Dt. 13:1-3, 5).
John 1:1 introduces the Word, who was in the beginning with God and was God. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” It is obvious from the context that the Word is Jesus, who is in other passages, called the Son of God (VERSE). Who is this person who is called God and who created all things that were created? Paul says of Him, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist” (Col. 1:15-17). It is hard to ignore that the writers of the New Testament taught that Jesus is God and, this creates a huge dilemma. Jehovah declares emphatically that He has not and will not ever create another God. He further claims that there are no other Gods beside Him and, if there is another God, He is ignorant of that fact. Somehow the identity of Jehovah God either includes Jehovah God the Father and Jehovah God the Son or the writers of the New Testament were false prophets and deserved to be stoned.
When the Jews commanded Peter and John (Acts 4:17-18; 5:28, 40) not to speak or teach in the name of Jesus, they surely believed that they were obeying God’s commandment given in Joshua 23:7 and rightfully forbidding them to speak in the name of “another god”? If Jesus is anything other than God very God, the apostles were indeed guilty of speaking in the name of another god and the Jews were justified in demanding that they immediately stop. The apostles, however, continued to speak and declare Jesus’ name boldly (Acts 8:12; 9:27-28; 4:19-20; 5:29-32; 9:21). They even went so far as to magnify the name of Jesus (Acts 19:17). Peter and John were even willing, and thought it a privilege, to be dishonored and/or die on behalf of Jesus (Acts 5:41-42; 15:26; 21:13)! Paul on the Damascus Road, specifically explained to the resurrected Jesus that he had been persecuting all those who were calling upon Jesus’ name (Acts. 9:14). Instead of commending him for persecuting people for calling upon the name of another god, Jesus commissioned him to bear His name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel (Acts 9:15). Was Jesus unfamiliar with Josh. 23:7 and Ex. 23:13? Did Paul see some demon trying to steal God’s glory and take the place of God? Countless times the writers of the New Testament describe believers as those exercising faith in the NAME of Jesus (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:15-18, 36: 6:29; 11:25; 14:1; Acts 10:43; 16:31; 20:21; 26:18; Eph. 3:17; Gal. 3:26; etc.). The writers of the New Testament were, in fact, guilty of teaching idolatry and damnable heresy unless Jesus is Jehovah God the Son because they not only taught and spoke in the name of Jesus, but encouraged others to join them in their blasphemy.
If Jesus is not God, Peter was teaching idolatry when he said, in reference to Jesus’ name: “Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved” (Acts 4:12). How can men be saved in the name of something that was created, the name of another god, when it’s forbidden to even speak another god’s name?
As mentioned above, worship is not only speaking in the name of another god, it is also swearing by another god’s name or serving another god. Luke warns that no one can serve two masters (Mt. 6:24; Lk. 16:13) without loving the one and hating the other. Paul reveals that believers are to serve the Lord” (Col. 3:24). Paul, Peter, John, Timothy, and Jude identify themselves and others as “a slave of Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:10; Col. 4:7; 2 Pet. 1:1; Jude 1:1; Rev. 1:1; Phil. 1:1). Does James claim to have two masters when he says: “James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…” (James 1:1)? John even claims that Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings (VERSE). Do the apostles serve both Jehovah God the Father and Jehovah God the Son who are One God or do they instead serve two masters—one the true God and the second “another”, created god? If the latter is true, they not only break the First Commandment and teach others to join with them in their worship of another god, but they identify themselves as false prophets and, therefore, did not die deaths as martyrs, but deserved to die as false prophets.
Jehovah forbids His people to bow (proskuneo) before another god. Bowing before kings and one’s master was expected and commanded by man’s laws and customs. When bowing before someone crosses the line into worship, it violates the First Commandment. We are faced with bowing before Jesus that cannot be explained away as mere respect shown to a teacher or rabbi. If Jesus is not Jehovah God the Son, Paul plainly teaches idolatry and the Jews were justified in their persecution of him. “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:10-11). How can all creation bow the knee before Jesus and that act of bowing be to the glory of the Father if Jesus is not Jehovah God the Son? Why would the Father say, “…And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6)? How can we understand Heb. 1
:8: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of they kingdom.”“And I when he had taken the book, the four beats and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints…And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice. Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beats said. Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.” (Rev. 5:8, 11-14). Is Jehovah God now willing to share His glory and praise with someone other than Himself (Isa. 42:8: 48:11)? Has He ceased to be jealous? Was He lying when He said that He did not know of any other Gods?
Are these the only instances in which the knee is bowed to Jesus? No, people bowed before Jesus on many occasions (Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9, 17; Mk. 5:6; 15:19; Lk. 24:52; Jn. 9:38). If Jesus was merely a man while on the earth, why did he not respond, when people bowed before him, in the same way in which the apostles did in Acts 10:25; 14:9-18 (compare Acts 12:22-23)? Even the angels knew that no one was allowed to bow before them as this would be worship of a created being (Rev. 19:10; 22:8). In contrast, Jesus did not reprimand people when they bowed before Him because He is not merely a man. Isaiah proclaims Him the Mighty God (Isa. 9:6), Matthew reveals Him to be Immanuel which means “with us is the God” (Mt. 1:23), and Thomas declares Him “The Lord of me and the God of me!” (Jn. 20:28). These examples, and there are many more, are clearly more than mere respect shown to a king or rabbi. They are worship and violate the First Commandment unless Jesus is Jehovah God the Son.
Believers are forbidden to fear another god or follow after other gods. How is it possible for Jesus to entreat the apostles and others to become His followers without asking them to break the First Commandment?
The Jews were forbidden to fear other gods or follow after them Yet Jesus entreated the apostles and others to become followers of Him (Mt. 8:22; 9:9; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17-18; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:23; Jn. 1:43; 10:4-5, 27; 12:26). David warns all to kiss the Son least He become angry and claims that those who take refuge in Him are blessed (Ps. 2:12). If Jesus is merely a created being, anything less than God, then Job reveals (Job. 31:26-28) that merely throwing a kiss toward anything God created is idolatry and exhibits hatred toward Jehovah (Rom. 1:25-26; Dt. 4:15-20, 23-24; Job 31:26-28; Rev. 19:10; 22:8’ Acts 10:25; 14:9-18; 12:20-23). God describes Himself as “a God exacting EXCLUSIVE DEVOTION” (Ex. 20:5; Dt. 4:24; 5:9; 6:15; and not “almost” exclusive devotion. He is a jealous God (Ex. 34:14) who is unwilling to share His glory with another (Isa. 42:8; 48:11).
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1). “But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, the gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion” (Jer. 10:10-12). These verses teach that Creator is clearly God and those that follow declare that Jesus is the Creator. “Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for they pleasure they are and were created” (Rev. 4:11). “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (Jn. 1:3). “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist” (Col. 1:16-17).
When we combine the words of the First Commandment with the teachings of the New Testament, we are left with a dilemma against which we must wrestle. The writers of the New Testament clearly taught that Jesus was far more than a mere man, more than a created being. They taught that He was God, the Creator, and that we are to serve and worship Him. Either they were false prophets speaking and proclaiming blasphemy and thus deserving of stoning or Jesus is indeed Jehovah God the Son and, He and Jehovah God the Father, are one God.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 13 2007,03:59) Jehovah says that no God was formed before Him and none will be after Him (Isa. 43:10). If there is another God, Jehovah reveals, that He is unaware of that fact (Isa. 44:8). Apart from Jehovah, all that men call Gods must, therefore, be false gods. In the First Commandment, Ex. 20:2-3, the one true God forbids the worship of any god other than Himself. Jehovah demands that He ALONE is to be worshipped (Ex. 23:24; Dt. 4:15-26; 6:13-15; 11:16; 17:2-7; 29:26-28; Jd. 2:11-12, 17; I Ki. 9:9; 2 Ki. 17:35-36; Jer. 2:13; Mt. 4:10; Lk. 4:8; Acts 10:25-26; Rom. 1:25-26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9). To worship another god, even to a lesser degree, is idolatry. What then constitutes worship? Moses explains that worshipping another god would include mentioning the name of another god, swearing by another god’s name, serving another god, or bowing down to another god (Josh. 23:7; Ex. 23:13). Moses adds that worship also includes fearing other gods or following them (Dt. 6:13-15). Job reveals that throwing a kiss to anything created would not only be worship but also a denial of the true God (Job 31:26-28). Jehovah explains that His people are in a marriage relationship to Him (Jer. 2:2; 3:14; 13:27; 31:32; Hos. 8:9) and, therefore, the worship of another god is adultery (Jer. 3:8, 9; Ezek. 16:32; 23:37; Mt. 8:38; Rev. 2:22). Since everything that is not God was created by God, nothing but God can be worshipped even to a lesser degree (Rom. 1:25-26; Dt. 4:15-19; Job 31:26-28).
The writers of the New Testament were prophets of God only if they truly spoke and wrote the words of Jehovah God. Jehovah warned the Jews that they must test all prophets. “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul…And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee” (Dt. 13:1-3, 5).
John 1:1 introduces the Word, who was in the beginning with God and was God. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” It is obvious from the context that the Word is Jesus, who is in other passages, called the Son of God (VERSE). Who is this person who is called God and who created all things that were created? Paul says of Him, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist” (Col. 1:15-17). It is hard to ignore that the writers of the New Testament taught that Jesus is God and, this creates a huge dilemma. Jehovah declares emphatically that He has not and will not ever create another God. He further claims that there are no other Gods beside Him and, if there is another God, He is ignorant of that fact. Somehow the identity of Jehovah God either includes Jehovah God the Father and Jehovah God the Son or the writers of the New Testament were false prophets and deserved to be stoned.
When the Jews commanded Peter and John (Acts 4:17-18; 5:28, 40) not to speak or teach in the name of Jesus, they surely believed that they were obeying God’s commandment given in Joshua 23:7 and rightfully forbidding them to speak in the name of “another god”? If Jesus is anything other than God very God, the apostles were indeed guilty of speaking in the name of another god and the Jews were justified in demanding that they immediately stop. The apostles, however, continued to speak and declare Jesus’ name boldly (Acts 8:12; 9:27-28; 4:19-20; 5:29-32; 9:21). They even went so far as to magnify the name of Jesus (Acts 19:17). Peter and John were even willing, and thought it a privilege, to be dishonored and/or die on behalf of Jesus (Acts 5:41-42; 15:26; 21:13)! Paul on the Damascus Road, specifically explained to the resurrected Jesus that he had been persecuting all those who were calling upon Jesus’ name (Acts. 9:14). Instead of commending him for persecuting people for calling upon the name of another god, Jesus commissioned him to bear His name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel (Acts 9:15). Was Jesus unfamiliar with Josh. 23:7 and Ex. 23:13? Did Paul see some demon trying to steal God’s glory and take the place of God? Countless times the writers of the New Testament describe believers as those exercising faith in the NAME of Jesus (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:15-18, 36: 6:29; 11:25; 14:1; Acts 10:43; 16:31; 20:21; 26:18; Eph. 3:17; Gal. 3:26; etc.). The writers of the New Testament were, in fact, guilty of teaching idolatry and damnable heresy unless Jesus is Jehovah God the Son because they not only taught and spoke in the name of Jesus, but encouraged others to join them in their blasphemy.
If Jesus is not God, Peter was teaching idolatry when he said, in reference to Jesus’ name: “Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved” (Acts 4:12). How can men be saved in the name of something that was created, the name of another god, when it’s forbidden to even speak another god’s name?
As mentioned above, worship is not only speaking in the name of another god, it is also swearing by another god’s name or serving another god. Luke warns that no one can serve two masters (Mt. 6:24; Lk. 16:13) without loving the one and hating the other. Paul reveals that believers are to serve the Lord” (Col. 3:24). Paul, Peter, John, Timothy, and Jude identify themselves and others as “a slave of Jesus Christ” (Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:10; Col. 4:7; 2 Pet. 1:1; Jude 1:1; Rev. 1:1; Phil. 1:1). Does James claim to have two masters when he says: “James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ…” (James 1:1)? John even claims that Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings (VERSE). Do the apostles serve both Jehovah God the Father and Jehovah God the Son who are One God or do they instead serve two masters—one the true God and the second “another”, created god? If the latter is true, they not only break the First Commandment and teach others to join with them in their worship of another god, but they identify themselves as false prophets and, therefore, did not die deaths as martyrs, but deserved to die as false prophets.
Jehovah forbids His people to bow (proskuneo) before another god. Bowing before kings and one’s master was expected and commanded by man’s laws and customs. When bowing before someone crosses the line into worship, it violates the First Commandment. We are faced with bowing before Jesus that cannot be explained away as mere respect shown to a teacher or rabbi. If Jesus is not Jehovah God the Son, Paul plainly teaches idolatry and the Jews were justified in their persecution of him. “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:10-11).
How can all creation bow the knee before Jesus and that act of bowing be to the glory of the Father if Jesus is not Jehovah God the Son? Why would the Father say, “…And let all the angels of God worship him” (Heb. 1:6)? How can we understand Heb. 1:8: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of they kingdom.”“And I when he had taken the book, the four beats and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints…And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the beasts, and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; saying with a loud voice. Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beats said. Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.” (Rev. 5:8, 11-14). Is Jehovah God now willing to share His glory and praise with someone other than Himself (Isa. 42:8: 48:11)? Has He ceased to be jealous? Was He lying when He said that He did not know of any other Gods?
Are these the only instances in which the knee is bowed to Jesus? No, people bowed before Jesus on many occasions (Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9, 17; Mk. 5:6; 15:19; Lk. 24:52; Jn. 9:38). If Jesus was merely a man while on the earth, why did he not respond, when people bowed before him, in the same way in which the apostles did in Acts 10:25; 14:9-18 (compare Acts 12:22-23)? Even the angels knew that no one was allowed to bow before them as this would be worship of a created being (Rev. 19:10; 22:8). In contrast, Jesus did not reprimand people when they bowed before Him because He is not merely a man. Isaiah proclaims Him the Mighty God (Isa. 9:6), Matthew reveals Him to be Immanuel which means “with us is the God” (Mt. 1:23), and Thomas declares Him “The Lord of me and the God of me!” (Jn. 20:28). These examples, and there are many more, are clearly more than mere respect shown to a king or rabbi. They are worship and violate the First Commandment unless Jesus is Jehovah God the Son.
Believers are forbidden to fear another god or follow after other gods. How is it possible for Jesus to entreat the apostles and others to become His followers without asking them to break the First Commandment?
The Jews were forbidden to fear other gods or follow after them Yet Jesus entreated the apostles and others to become followers of Him (Mt. 8:22; 9:9; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17-18; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:23; Jn. 1:43; 10:4-5, 27; 12:26). David warns all to kiss the Son least He become angry and claims that those who take refuge in Him are blessed (Ps. 2:12). If Jesus is merely a created being, anything less than God, then Job reveals (Job. 31:26-28) that merely throwing a kiss toward anything God created is idolatry and exhibits hatred toward Jehovah (Rom. 1:25-26; Dt. 4:15-20, 23-24; Job 31:26-28; Rev. 19:10; 22:8’ Acts 10:25; 14:9-18; 12:20-23). God describes Himself as “a God exacting EXCLUSIVE DEVOTION” (Ex. 20:5; Dt. 4:24; 5:9; 6:15; and not “almost” exclusive devotion. He is a jealous God (Ex. 34:14) who is unwilling to share His glory with another (Isa. 42:8; 48:11).
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1). “But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, the gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion” (Jer. 10:10-12). These verses teach that Creator is clearly God and those that follow declare that Jesus is the Creator. “Thou are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for they pleasure they are and were created” (Rev. 4:11). “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (Jn. 1:3). “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist” (Col. 1:16-17).
When we combine the words of the First Commandment with the teachings of the New Testament, we are left with a dilemma against which we must wrestle. The writers of the New Testament clearly taught that Jesus was far more than a mere man, more than a created being. They taught that He was God, the Creator, and that we are to serve and worship Him. Either they were false prophets speaking and proclaiming blasphemy and thus deserving of stoning or Jesus is indeed Jehovah God the Son and, He and Jehovah God the Father, are one God.
gwhelchelWelcome.
Excellent points!
Very well put and documented.!!!
Blessings
Quote What then constitutes worship? Moses explains that worshipping another god would include mentioning the name of another god, swearing by another god’s name, serving another god, or bowing down to another god (Josh. 23:7; Ex. 23:13). Moses adds that worship also includes fearing other gods or following them (Dt. 6:13-15). Job reveals that throwing a kiss to anything created would not only be worship but also a denial of the true God (Job 31:26-28). Jehovah explains that His people are in a marriage relationship to Him (Jer. 2:2; 3:14; 13:27; 31:32; Hos. 8:9) and, therefore, the worship of another god is adultery (Jer. 3:8, 9; Ezek. 16:32; 23:37; Mt. 8:38; Rev. 2:22). Since everything that is not God was created by God, nothing but God can be worshipped even to a lesser degree (Rom. 1:25-26; Dt. 4:15-19; Job 31:26-28).
gwhelchelYou are right. This is a very valid point. One I have made many times. You cant serve “Two” masters.
Many run around talking about serving Jesus and calling him Lord and master, even praying through him and some admitting talking and praying to him, yet this was forbidden by YHWH, and he has not changed his mind.
Paul obviously was breaking the 1st and 2nd commandment by praying to Yeshua.
And Stephen also…
Acts 7:59
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on {the Lord} and said, *”Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!*”Who could recieve a mans spirit but God?
I think Stephen must have talked to Thomas!
So wouldnt that make Jesus his own Father?
If there only one God..Somebody has to be the Father in Charge? There goes your co-Equal..
Who is the Son if there all Gods? And which one is Really the Father of Jesus? If Jesus is not the Father then who is he?The Holy Spirit?
Does the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God take turns coming in and out of people?Dont they ever communcate with each other?
Which of the Three Gods really die on the Cross? Or is it Gods dont really die?They just take over fleshy bodies.
When Satan enter someone is that Person really evil and are they Satan in the Flesh?What about the demons same thing?
When the Holy Spirit and or the Spirit of God enter someone is that Person really God in the flesh? And why not? Didnt Jesus have the Holy Spirit in Him?
Who really did the Miracles? Jesus the Son of God or the Holy Spirit, or God the Father?
How come Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit? Wasnt the Holy Spirit really his Father?
Quote So wouldnt that make Jesus his own Father? No
Quote If there only one God..Somebody has to be the Father in Charge? Actually no there doesn't. There is not a chain of authority within God.
Quote Who is the Son if there all Gods? And which one is Really the Father of Jesus? If Jesus is not the Father then who is he?The Holy Spirit? They are not all Gods. They are one God. Jesus is the Son. The Father is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is neither the Father nor the Spirit, but the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
Quote Does the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God take turns coming in and out of people?Dont they ever communcate with each other? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
Quote Which of the Three Gods really die on the Cross? Or is it Gods dont really die?They just take over fleshy bodies There is only one God, and that God died on the cross.
Quote When Satan enter someone is that Person really evil and are they Satan in the Flesh?What about the demons same thing? I doubt that God would allow Satan to enter a righteous person, so the person is evil, as Judas was. The person is the same person, even if indwelt by a demon.
Quote When the Holy Spirit and or the Spirit of God enter someone is that Person really God in the flesh? And why not? Didnt Jesus have the Holy Spirit in Him? No, that person is the same person. Is it said of any of the apostles or saints, that they are God in the flesh? Jesus alone is called God with us, even though the saints are temples of the Holy Spirit because Jesus, in addition to having been filled with the Holy Spirit, is God.
Quote Who really did the Miracles? Jesus the Son of God or the Holy Spirit, or God the Father? All three did the same miracles because all three are the same God. Luke 4:14, John 10:37-38, John 14:10.
Quote How come Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit? Wasnt the Holy Spirit really his Father? Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit of His Father. I fail to see how the Spirit could not be present during his prayers. No the Holy Spirit is not the Father in light of John 14:16,26, and 15:26, which you still haven't responded to. I've answered your questions, now will youplease look at those three verses and explain how the Holy Spirit can be the Father in those verses?
Tim
Welcome gwhelchel!
Thank you for that wonderful exposition of the Scriptures. Clearly, it's impossible in light of your analysis of the first and second commandments to deny that Jesus is God. I hope that the people on this forum who read it will repent and confess the Lord Jesus rather than continue to kick against the goads. And I hope that you continue to stay and share your wisdom with us in spite of the taunts and attacks that many heretics on this forum are sure to level at you without addressing your points. Pay them no mind. This website comes up very early on google searches, and the seekers visiting this site need to hear the truth and be set free.
Tim
Hi,
God never spoke of any trinity either directly or through His Son or through any of His servants.
If you choose to believe in it, as many do, you must know you are on your own spiritually and serving Tradition.
You may walk in the footsteps of hundreds of clever experts and millions of the deceived over the past 1800 yrs but you will not have the fellowship of the Father and the Son.
To do that you must obey and abide in the Word.Hi Tim2,
Do you believe in an economic and an ontological trinity?
Most who follow this theopry have had to develop this view to plug the authority gaps in the theory.Hi Nick,
I believe in one Trinity. I believe there is an ontological aspect of this Trinity, just as I can consider the ontological aspect of you or me. I also believe there is an economic aspect of this Trinity, seen in the economy of salvation, whereby the Son and the Spirit voluntarily submit themselves to the Father for our salvation. I'm sure there is also an economic aspect to your life.
I don't know of any authority gaps in the Trinity, nor of a theory of the Trinity. Rather, the Trinity is asserted in Scripture.
Tim
That would be an example of the “without addressing your points” that I mentioned. Nick, why don't you do your guest the courtesy of responding to what they wrote?
Quote (Tim2 @ May 13 2007,17:03) That would be an example of the “without addressing your points” that I mentioned. Nick, why don't you do your guest the courtesy of responding to what they wrote?
Yep.As Is 1:18 puts it.
*ad hominem*
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the person”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, *rather than by addressing the substance of the argument*. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.
Other common subtypes of the ad hominem include the ad hominem circumstantial, or ad hominem circumstantiae, an attack which is directed at the circumstances or situation of the arguer; and the ad hominem tu quoque, which objects to an argument by characterizing the arguer as being guilty of the same thing that he is arguing against.Wow! That sounds kind of like, “Your mama wear combat boots.”
I presented an answer that you obviously don't like, but I would ask that you at least offer me the courtesy of answering the questions I have asked. If my points are weak, you should find it rather easy to prove them wrong. 2 Tim. 2:15 commends us to “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” Paul commended the Bereans (Acts 17:11) because “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
I ask no more of you.
Quote (Tim2 @ May 13 2007,17:03) That would be an example of the “without addressing your points” that I mentioned. Nick, why don't you do your guest the courtesy of responding to what they wrote?
Hi Tim2,
If trinity is not scriptual teaching
are there any points to address?Hi Tim2,
Where is the Spirit of God spoken of as another being submitting to God?
Does your finger submit to you?
The Spirit of God is as the finger of God.I notice that your postscript states that you wish to test all things, and hold fast to what is good. I find that commendable.
I challenge you to read through my two earlier posts and find the word Trinity. It is not there. You argue a “strawman” argument and defeat the strawman as Don Quichote fought against windmills.
I believe that you are a man that sincerely seeks truth and believes that what he holds dear to him is truth. I have found that, if it is truth, it will stand firm even against the strongest arguments. If it is God's Truth, not amount of man's reasonings will be able to stand against it. I do not fear standing toe-to-toe and/or verse-to-verse with you as I desire only to test all things, and hold fast to what is good. Are you willing to join me in this quest?
Hi and welcome gw,
This is a scriptural site.
Why waste time with speculative theories?
Why not work just with what is written as the rest is of the folly of men?Huh? “This is a scriptural site”…did I quote from Alice in Wonderland? Why do you insult me instead of addressing my questions? The references I offered were from the Bible. I have a college level masters degree. I am not stupid or unread. My presentation was worthy of a response.
Speculative theories? Folly of men? Show me the error of my way and my folly. Don't just insult me and call me names.
Why do you fear standing verse-to-verse with me? If you have the truth, you should fear nothing?
I have a college level masters degree. I am not stupid or unread. My presentation was worthy of a response.
Speculative theories? Folly of men? Show me the error of my way and my folly. Don't just insult me and call me names.
************************Ah! The wisdom of man continues. I see I haven't missed much while I've been gone. Everyone is still beating their chests!
Thanks to those who have sent PM's and encouraged me to return. I've never really left – I've been caught lurking a few times. I've been reading up on our Trinitarian bretheren, and taking notes on how many different views there are concerning the Trinity. There are quite a few. This doesn't surprise me as even C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell do not agree on a definition of the Trinity. Chuck Swindoll and Lutzer are also at odds with their definitions of the Trinity – go figure?
Tim2 – if the creeds are set in place for the church to know who and what God is – why are so many Trinitarians of antiquity and modern times at odds? Where is the definition of the Trinity in scripture anyway? We used to have 1 John 5:7, but then you know what happened there.
Quoting scripture will not form a definition of the Trinity. If it did, then C.S. Lewis, Swindoll, McDowell, Lutzer and others would not be differing (and at times, contradicting their fellows). If a definition could be found in scripture, these men would have found one! They didn't. They couldn't. So, they inferred their own ideas and came up with their own “brand” of Trinity.
I'm not out of my league here as I had once thought. No. I can quote scripture, too. I even have a degree (does that count for anything, I wonder?) The Trinity is false because the very idea has to come from quilting scriptures together to form it's blanket of teaching (under which most Christians fall asleep thinking they are safe – after all – it's a teaching that has been woven together since Nicea, right?).
God said he is One. If he meant to tell us that he was made up of three parts, he failed. If he meant for us to guess and figure it out on our own (by piecing scriptures together), then he failed. For me, I will not abandond the God of the first part of the Bible. I believe he is also the God of the second part of the bible. Same Word. Same God. I wonder if the good children tried to make Moses God, too?
Anyway, don't let me interupt the chest beating………..I find it rather entertaining.
I would join you, but it might be a little too painful for me 
Oh, and welcome GW. I'm one of the heritics here, pleased to meet you! I speak from a women's point of view, so sometimes I speak more from ideas and stories versus quoting all of scripture. Besides, I see that doesn't really help in getting a point accross anyway (no matter how eloquent or organized). In fact, I rather enjoy Nick's one or two sentence posts – they do exactly what I imagine he intends them to…..they get us to think and to share the truth that we know. People will believe what they want to, really. Rarely does anyone change their mind when it comes to money, politics, sex or God.
Quote (gwhelchel @ May 13 2007,18:00) Huh? “This is a scriptural site”…did I quote from Alice in Wonderland? Why do you insult me instead of addressing my questions? The references I offered were from the Bible. I have a college level masters degree. I am not stupid or unread. My presentation was worthy of a response. Speculative theories? Folly of men? Show me the error of my way and my folly. Don't just insult me and call me names.
Why do you fear standing verse-to-verse with me? If you have the truth, you should fear nothing?
Hi gw,
Do you have one verse that God taught a trinity?
If not then why not just believe in the the God of the Jews and the bible?
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