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Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,06:50) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:04) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,05:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,04:24) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,03:30) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,21:26) Quote (Unisage @ May 08 2007,18:01) Hi Nick I was trying to expalin in a way so that people can understand ..That is all..
I dont see God being seperated or a three persons.
It be the same logic of taking the Sun and Sperating its light and warmth calling it 3 suns.
I was just using as a example.
Hi U,
I appreciate the fact that you patiently strive in showing people how you see things, even when it's clear that they do not see it the same way, and probably never will. There are quite a few scriptures that show the the Holy Spirit is not the Father IMO. Here are some of them:John 16:7
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father or the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear line of authority between the Father and Son. It’s the Father that does the sending, not the Son…..This theme is amplified even more in vss 13 and 14:
John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.We see a clear picture of the subservience of the Holy Spirit to the Son in this passage, the Holy Spirit does “not speak on His own initiative” but only “takes of” the Son and discloses to those He indwells. So the Father does not fit here at all. While on Earth Yeshua “took of” the Father (John 5:19, 14:10, 14:24), not the other way around. Just to underscore this theme of subservience Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him, which again is in stark contrast to the relational paradigm between the Father and Son that is described in NT scripture.
Romans 8:14-15
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“Cf.
Galatians 4:6
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“This verse also very clearly shows that the Son's personal Spirit indwells us. But even if the “Spirit of the Son” detail was omitted from this verse there remains a problem for those that believe the Spirit described here is the Father. Paul articulates here that the Spirit personally cries out, “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Not plausible.
Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.Here the Spirit is said to intercede on our behalf. Who does He intercede to? TO God, right? This is key. It’s implicit in this passage that an exchange of communication occurs between the interceder and the recipient of that intercession. But to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father or the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father some how makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also notable that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, but would this mention not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? How could the Father not do something according to his own will?? Clearly another personage is in view here….
These are a few of the reasons I personally reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or the Father's personal Spirit. But if you can explain all this I am open minded.
Blessings
Isa 1:18If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted.
Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it *seeth HIM not*, neither *knoweth HIM*: but ye *know him*; for *he* dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.4 times in one verse Jesus uses personal pronouns for the Spirit of Truth.
Jesus is also “The Truth”, Jn 14:6, does that mean he is not a person?
Jn 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the *spirit of error*.John confirms who this person, the spirit of error is a few verses before this…
Jn 4:
1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world*.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: *Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Word/God) is come in the flesh is of God:*
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (the Word God) is come in the flesh is not of God: and *this is that spirit of antichrist*, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, *than he that is in the world*.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.The spirit of error is the spirit of the antichrist, satan, the god of this world who has blinded the minds of them that believe not.
If the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.
The President of the United States is greater than us but we are 100% equal to him as human beings!!!
If the President sends the Vice President to act in his Stead.It dont make the Vice president …President either!What kind of lame logic you have!We all have the Spirit of God in us does that Make us God to!
The vice president is still 100% human.God is a class of being. Just like man and Angels are a class of being.
Yeshua the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. He is both God and man. The Word/God took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. He is a “Unique” class of being.
God in the flesh.
Hi W,
Yes he is a unique class of being.
He is of origin above the angels but ever subject to his God.If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serperate person from them, then who is Jesus's father? Mt.1:18-20 reads, Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
Why is the Holy Spirit never Stated as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? Acts 7:55,56; Col.3:1; and Rev.5:1-9; 7:10 I do not even see an empty throne for him.
1 Cor.11:3 gives a Rank in which women, men, and Christ each have a head with God.. As God the Father being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?
Eph.5:5 tells us the “kingdom” that believers shall inherit is of Christ and of God.. Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?
The Father and the Son talk with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?
The truth is God is the Holy Spirit!
Hi U,
And in Jn 17 when Jesus speaks of his unity with the Father we only have two spoken of.
Was this an error on his behalf or did he just forget there are three that make up this PROPOSED trinityQuote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2007,17:05) Its says… Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and *no man* knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth *any man* the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.The last time I looked the Spirit is not a man.
FYIThe words translated 'man' in this verse is NOT the Greek word for 'man' i.e. neither anthropos or aner.
Rather, the Greek words used are the equivalent of
“no one” and “any one” as in
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and *no one* knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth *any one* the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.Compare NASB:
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
ASV:
All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]Et cetera
Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,10:49) Its amazing when you catch trinity people in there own lies.They go off topic..
Show me where I lied!You accuse me of lies.
Please post and paste where I have lied.
People can get banned for such accusations.
If you say my interpretation of the scripture is a lie, fine, at least show me how.
Other wise it would do you good not to call people liars.
Nick
What I do know there are Two Messiahs walk the earth one teaching the Holy Ways of Israel,the Other teaching the Unholy Ways of Rome,which path to follow,truth or lies,life or death,the blessing or the curse,it is up to us to find and follow the Way of Light.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,11:36) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,10:49) Its amazing when you catch trinity people in there own lies.They go off topic..
Show me where I lied!You accuse me of lies.
Please post and paste where I have lied.
People can get banned for such accusations.
If you say my interpretation of the scripture is a lie, fine, at least show me how.
Other wise it would do you good not to call people liars.
Paul knew the horrors of Mythra and the various other religons around Jerusalem and the horrors of what happened to his forfathers for coming out of the Way and into Inquity.
You hold no ground.I dont compromise with those who teach another Jesus.
John warn us and you fall in that line.You say Jeus as God came in the Flesh..
John say Jesus came in the Flesh.
Now the truth is Satan lies, so dont you and that makes you a Antichrist and a Deceiver..God didnt come in the flesh Jesus did..You are taking away people from the true word of God and you Have deny the Son. You are saying there is no Son! You are saying he is really God.You are making the Might One to be a Lair. By stating he didnt sent his son.Because
YOU ARE SAYING JESUS IS GOD IN THE FLESH! YOU DENY THE SON PERIOD!You are also saying that God has Flesh and bones! And thats a Lie also!
2 John 7
“Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not accept that Jesus came as a human being. Here is the deceiver and the antichrist.”Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 09 2007,11:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 08 2007,17:05) Its says… Matt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and *no man* knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth *any man* the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.The last time I looked the Spirit is not a man.
FYIThe words translated 'man' in this verse is NOT the Greek word for 'man' i.e. neither anthropos or aner.
Rather, the Greek words used are the equivalent of
“no one” and “any one” as in
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and *no one* knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth *any one* the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.Compare NASB:
All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
ASV:
All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]Et cetera
AhI see Ap. So you think the Spirit Is included in the “No One”?
So the Spirit which can be grieved, and blasphemed, and lied to and can speak and hear and feel, and was present in Genesis 1 in the creation of all things, didnt know the Father?
So Jesus is saying the Spirit did not know the Father nor the Son when Jesus made the statement in Matt 11:27?
I dont think so AP. Please show me where “oudeis” is used in reference to the Holy Spirit or even spirit.
236 times the word is used in the NT and not once is the word “oudeis” used for the Spirit.
Look at the context, Yeshua is obviously speaking of men.
WJ, simply pointing out in ref. to your reply to Unisage … that the word 'man' in the KJV quote of Matt 11.27 is not the Greek word for 'man'
That's all!Amazing how the Unbelievers make these bold claims against the truth and yet do not have any truth to defend.
No scriptures to support there belief. They just run around claiming that they have the truth yet show us no scripture to back it up.
All they know how to do is accuse the brethren and we know what spirit that comes from.
Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 09 2007,12:03) WJ, simply pointing out in ref. to your reply to Unisage … that the word 'man' in the KJV quote of Matt 11.27 is not the Greek word for 'man'
That's all!
APFine.
But of course your implication is the Spirit is not a Person.
Which I dont think Matt 11:27 is a good example to show the Spirit is not a person.
Obviously we disagree!
Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,04:57) Quote (Tim2 @ May 09 2007,03:46) Unisage, You're not responding to what I'm writing. Look at John 15:26 please. Just look at it and tell me how it is possible that the Holy Spirit is the Father in light of that verse.
Tim
TimIf the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.There your answer tim.
The Father is God. The Son is Jesus. The Spirit is not seperate from God, because it is the “””life of God”””, not a person as some people teach. The Father did not give his son a person. He gave him His Spirit when it came from heaven “like a dove” and remained on him at the Jordan River.God spirit is God life.
Romans 8:10
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
John 5:26
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 17:1-2
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” – 1Cor.15:24,28
So where is the Holy Spirit in all of this Tim???
Hi Unisage,I don't see where it says that the Holy Spirit is under the Father's authority.
But you admit that the Father is not the Spirit, because You say the Father gave the Spirit to Jesus? And you also believe the Spirit is God? Good. So you believe the Holy Spirit is God, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Now you just need to learn that Jesus is God, and you will be saved.
What's your point from Romans 8:10?
John 5:26, 17:1-2, and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 don't mention the Holy Spirit, so I don't see what your point is. Are you saying that because the Spirit isn't mentioned in some verses that talk about the Father and the Son, that … what? Are you going to make assumptions about the Spirit based on texts that don't mention Him? Let's stick to the texts that do mention Him.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Where does scripture say we need to believe the Son of God is also God to be saved?
Is this your gospel?Hi Nick,
Romans 10:9-13 say we must confess the Lord Jesus, that the same is Lord over all, and that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, the last one being a quotation of Joel 2:32, which says everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved.
It seems to me the only alternative to Jesus being YHWH is that Paul is saying we call on the name of a lord other than YHWH to be saved, which would be a contradiction of Joel 2:32.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ May 09 2007,17:49) Hi Nick, Romans 10:9-13 say we must confess the Lord Jesus, that the same is Lord over all, and that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, the last one being a quotation of Joel 2:32, which says everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved.
It seems to me the only alternative to Jesus being YHWH is that Paul is saying we call on the name of a lord other than YHWH to be saved, which would be a contradiction of Joel 2:32.
Tim
Tim2Good point!
Quote (Tim2 @ May 09 2007,15:15) Quote (Unisage @ May 09 2007,04:57) Quote (Tim2 @ May 09 2007,03:46) Unisage, You're not responding to what I'm writing. Look at John 15:26 please. Just look at it and tell me how it is possible that the Holy Spirit is the Father in light of that verse.
Tim
TimIf the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Father, He cannot be under His authority.There your answer tim.
The Father is God. The Son is Jesus. The Spirit is not seperate from God, because it is the “””life of God”””, not a person as some people teach. The Father did not give his son a person. He gave him His Spirit when it came from heaven “like a dove” and remained on him at the Jordan River.God spirit is God life.
Romans 8:10
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
John 5:26
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 17:1-2
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” – 1Cor.15:24,28
So where is the Holy Spirit in all of this Tim???
Hi Unisage,I don't see where it says that the Holy Spirit is under the Father's authority.
But you admit that the Father is not the Spirit, because You say the Father gave the Spirit to Jesus? And you also believe the Spirit is God? Good. So you believe the Holy Spirit is God, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Now you just need to learn that Jesus is God, and you will be saved.
What's your point from Romans 8:10?
John 5:26, 17:1-2, and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 don't mention the Holy Spirit, so I don't see what your point is. Are you saying that because the Spirit isn't mentioned in some verses that talk about the Father and the Son, that … what? Are you going to make assumptions about the Spirit based on texts that don't mention Him? Let's stick to the texts that do mention Him.
Tim
TimDont be confused ..The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are the same.They still come from One God .And thats the Father.There not seperated.Just like you and your Spirit are not Seperated.
When you read the Bible please note God is a Spirit.It does not say SpiritS
Now watch and see what happens..
These verses show that the Father said that he would pour out HIS SPIRIT upon all flesh.
Joel 2:27-29- And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out MY SPIRIT upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out MY SPIRIT.
Acts 2:17-18- And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of MY SPIRIT upon all flesh:….And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of MY SPIRIT;….
Ezek 36:27- And I will put MY SPIRIT within you,…
Ezek 37:14- And shall put MY SPIRIT in you,…
Ezek 39:29- Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out MY SPIRIT upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.
Prov 1:23- Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out MY SPIRIT unto you,…
Isa 44:3- I will pour MY SPIRIT upon thy seed,…
Can it be any clearer? Tim?
The Father said that he would pour out HIS SPIRIT upon all flesh. There can be absolutely no doubt that the Holy Spirit is the Father Spirit.. The Holy Spirit goes out from the Father.. The Father is the only one capable of putting His Holy Spirit in people.
Luke 11:13- how much more shall your heavenly FATHER give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 15:26- “When the counselor comes, whom I will send to you FROM THE FATHER, the spirit of truth who GOES OUT FROM THE FATHER, he will testify about me.
The Father put his holy spirit upon his Son Jesus….
Isa 42:1-3- Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I HAVE PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM: he shall bring forth judgment to the gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. a bruised reed shall he not break,…….
Matt 12:18-20- Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, and he shall shew judgment to the gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neiher shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break,….
Acts 10:37-38- That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; how GOD (the Father) anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:…
Acts 2:33- Therefore being by the right hand of GOD exalted, and having received OF THE FATHER the promise of THE HOLY GHOST,….
And Jesus comfimrs it Jesus was indwelt by the Father and not by the third person of a trinity…
John 14:10- but the FATHER that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
The Father sealed Jesus..
John 6:27- Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the son of man shall give unto you: for him hath GOD THE FATHER sealed.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.””””the spirit of your Father”””” is the Holy Spirit:
Matt 10:19-20- But when they deliver you up take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but THE SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER which speaketh in you.
Mark 13:11- But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Luke 12:11-12- And when they shall bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for THE HOLY SPIRIT shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Well Tim if the Holy Spirit is Not the Father then People are still waiting for the Father to pour out his Spirit…….
The Holy Spirit is the Father and not a Seperate person..
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