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Hi Not3in1,
Jesus is a true Son in the sense defined by the Nicene Creed: “We believe … in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
This differs from your definition of Jesus' sonship in that (1) The begetting happened before time, and (2) The Father alone begat Jesus. Regarding (1), there is no reason to think that the Father would need time in order to beget His Son. Time is something that matter and energy need in order to change, but God doesn't.
Regarding (2), there is no reason to think that the Father needs someone else in order to beget a son. Animals need a mate in order to beget because of their physical limitations. But the Father has no such limitations. We see this in Acts 13:33, referring to the resurrection of Jesus. Paul and the psalmist call it begetting. But the Father does it without the help of a mother. Again, Hebrews 1:5, “I have begotten you.” There is no reference to a mother. Finally, look to the creation of Eve. She was taken out of Adam and was bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. In the same way, Jesus is the same substance as the Father. There was no need for another in either case.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 27 2007,05:23) Denominations are a great evil in the church. The ecumenical church should all be one. But there are differences that various groups have felt were important enough to split off from the church. Obviously the biggest differences are over baptism and the Lord's Supper, which if the church doesn't agree on, it's hard to stay one church. Nevertheless, for all the denominations and differences over countless points of doctrine, the doctrine of the Trinity is unchallenged in every denomination. Who are those who challenge the Trinity? The biggest groups are the mormons and jw's. I know the mormons made no attempt at reconciliation with the church. They didn't try, like all the other denominations, to come to terms with the church and suggest areas for change. They simply claimed that their leader received a stupid book from an angel, and they just left and led thousands, now I guess millions, astray. I don't know how the jw's got started, but I doubt it was a group that broke off from the church.
And who are the rest of the anti-trinitarians? Thousands of stubborn individuals who think that only they know the truth and refuse to join in the brotherhood and fellowship that has existed for 2000 years in the church. One says of Jesus, “He is a god,” and another, “He was God,” and another, “He was God's seed.” Give it up already. Your personal impression from the Bible is wrong. You made a mistake. It's not the end of the world. Just admit you were wrong and join the church.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Denominations have murdered each other for centuries.
Yet you seem to say they, together, are Christ?
Does the hand cut off the ear?
What unites them?It is
not truth
or love
or the Spirit.How did they become one with the head if none agrees even on one way?
You seem to have an idea they should all come back to unity with Rome which has long appointed a different shepherd.So it seems for more likely that neither Rome nor her protesting daughters have no part of the Body of Christ.
Come out of her.
Martian,
I'll highlight some quotations for those who don't read all your text:
the doctrine stated is a genuinely Scriptural doctrine
the doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine
It should be needless to say that none of these triads has the slightest resemblance to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
It carries home to us in a very suggestive way the superiority of the Trinitarian conception of God to the conception of Him as an abstract monadYou are welcome to go to confession and abstain from meat on Friday if you like. Not all denominations agree on this. Nor should they. But they all agree on the Trinity, and you should too.
Tim
Hi TIm2,
Should you be preaching unity with a doctrine that relies on SUGGESTIONS and is not found written?Quote (Tim2 @ April 27 2007,06:42) Hi Not3in1, Jesus is a true Son in the sense defined by the Nicene Creed: “We believe … in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.”
This differs from your definition of Jesus' sonship in that (1) The begetting happened before time, and (2) The Father alone begat Jesus. Regarding (1), there is no reason to think that the Father would need time in order to beget His Son. Time is something that matter and energy need in order to change, but God doesn't.
Regarding (2), there is no reason to think that the Father needs someone else in order to beget a son. Animals need a mate in order to beget because of their physical limitations. But the Father has no such limitations. We see this in Acts 13:33, referring to the resurrection of Jesus. Paul and the psalmist call it begetting. But the Father does it without the help of a mother. Again, Hebrews 1:5, “I have begotten you.” There is no reference to a mother. Finally, look to the creation of Eve. She was taken out of Adam and was bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. In the same way, Jesus is the same substance as the Father. There was no need for another in either case.
Tim
Tim,
First paragraph – what makes Jesus special is that he is the “only begotten” of God. He is his “true” Son. Not true in the sense of the creeds (because they are not talking about a son who was conceived, and then born), but in the sense of a true, legitimate son – who has a geneology!Second paragraph – of course there is reason to think God needed Mary in the begetal. If he didn't need her, why did he use her? Certainly he could have generated a body to incarnate; no? Technically, you cannot beget alone. Why would God confuse us like this? Use something we understand at a very primal level, and make it mean something for him that is totally foriegn to what it means for us? That's a really hard teaching for me to believe, I'll be honest here.
Third paragraph – there would be “no need for another” in the case of Jesus EXCEPT for the fact that he is a “true” son and needed Mary to make him thus. Otherwise, as I have already stated, God could have just generated someone…..like Adam.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 25 2007,13:39) Hi Martian, You didn't respond to verses 5:19,21, and 23, so I guess you accept that Jesus is equal to the Father in each of those points, as well as His absolute equality with the Father stated in 5:18.
The rest of your argument seems to be that because some of Jesus' attributes are derived from the Father, that He is not equal to the Father. But this just isn't true. Sons are not less than their fathers. Perhaps for a time they are weaker and under their father's authority, but when they are full grown, they are everything that their fathers are. Solomon was no less king of Israel than David. The son of a polar bear is no less a polar bear than his father, etc. Likewise, the Nicene Creed confesses that the Son is begotten of the Father. Thus, all of the Son's properties come from the Father. Therefore he has the same nature as the Father, which is Godhead. We ought not to think that the Godhead can change with time. So there is no reason to believe that there was a period when the Son was less than the Father and had to grow into equality.
Again, equality does not mean independence. The Son is not independent of the Father. Nor is the Father independent of the Son, for the Son is His wisdom and power. 1 Corinthians 1:24. And all things are through the Son. 1 Corinthians 8:6.
The other sense in which Jesus derived qualities from the Father does relate to His status as man. Don't you believe that Jesus was a man, just like us? Hebrews 2:17. And it was necessary for this man to have all things put in subjection under Him. Psalm 8:6. Hebrews 2:8. Hence, Jesus couldn't just exercise authority because He was God. He had to fulfill the Scriptures, that all authority would be given to the Son of Man. John 5:27.
You believe that Jesus emptied Himself of selfishness and empty conceit? So Jesus was selfish and full of empty conceit? Wow. No, Paul explicitly says that it was His equality with God that Jesus did not grasp when he took the form of a slave and a man.
Tim
Tim says –
There was a time when I believed as you do. I thought that Jesus was just God's image, a representation of God, in the way man was supposed to be.Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Tim says –
But the word also speaks of Jesus Himself as being God. John 1:1. The Word was God. The only responses I've heard to this are (1) polytheism (Jehovah's Witnesses), (2) the Word ceased to be God (Nick), or (3) the Word was “divine.” But it doesn't say divine (theiotes). It says God, Theos.REsponse –
I do not agree with any of these points. Perhaps you should not start from a premiss that “word” equals Jesus. The Greek term Logos is used 100’s of times in scripture and aleays means a statement, speech, or intention. Yet Trinitarians constantly pull out a few verses and give it a different meaning then all the rest of scripture.Tim says –
Thomas again calls Jesus God. John 20:28.Response –
Moses called the burning bush God. Is God a schrubery?
God called the people of Israel God’s. Are they?
Jesus called the Pharasees Gods. Are they?You are trying to take scriptures written by Hebrew thinkers and understand them with Greek reasoning. The Hebrews saw a revealing of God as God himself.
The Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8. And He's called God elsewhere.
Romans 9:6. Again an assumption that “Word” equals Jesus.
Titus 2:13. – If I say I saw the president and the senator, did I see one or two individules. At best this is ambigous.
2 Peter 1:1. Again this does not say that christ is God. You read it wih a preconcieved idea and force your meaning on it.
Tim says-
Now again, the context of Romans 5:18 shows that Jesus is equal to the Father. You are guessing that 5:18 is the Jewish thought of Jesus but you have no proof. And Jesus' response affirms His equality. He does everything that the Father does.Response –
So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn].Again you ignor this plain scripture. If Jesus is equal with God why does he say he can do nothing of his qwn accord? Why does He need the help or permission of God?
Tim says –
He raises whom He will. He is to be honored as the Father is. Your only response is that some of His points are derived from the Father. Derivation does not mean inequality if the one who derives receives everything that the giver has.Response –
Nor does derivation prove equality. In fact if Jesus is equal to God why the need for any dirivation at all. Why does Christ not have it in the first place. As you ascert Jesus has everything the father has, then why the need for getting anything from God? And Jesus has everything that the Father has.
In fact John 16:15 Does not prove Christ is God. Christ is heir to the thrown of God and His son..You ignor the context of John 17:10.
11And [now] I am no more in the world, but these are [still] in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep in Your Name [in the knowledge of Yourself] those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We [are one]. (Amplified Bible)21That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me.
22I have given to them the glory and honor which You have given Me, that they may be one [even] as We are one:
23I in them and You in Me, in order that they may become one and perfectly united, that the world may know and [definitely] recognize that You sent Me and that You have loved them [even] as You have loved Me.
(Are we to become part of the Trinity?)
Tim states –
5:19 does not speak of any giving of authority as you claim. It simply says the Son does whatever the Father does. This means the Father does nothing that the Son doesn't also do. This is complete equality.Response – What a complete untruth and deception. How can you simply ignor the plain text.
19So Jesus answered them by saying, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, the Son is able to do nothing of Himself (of His own accord); but He is able to do only what He sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does is what the Son does in the same way [in His turn].
If Jesus can do nothing of his on accord, then He is not equal to the Father.tim says –
5:22 again says that judgment is given to the Son, and if you will look at 5:27, you will see the reason is that He is the Son of Man, who was promised this authority in Psalm 8:6. Hebrews 2:8. 5:30 finishes this line of thought by showing that the Son of Man does not judge on His own but does the will of God. All three of your verses showing subordination are about judgment, which we know to be the role of the Son of Man. It does not say anything about the Godhead of the Son.Response – now you contradict yourself again. First you say Jesus and God are equal and then you say that he does not do his own will but the will of God. If he is equal why does he need to follow any will other t
hen his own? why does he need judgement given to Him? why did he not have it in the first place?John 5:43 -I don't know what the Amplified Bible is smoking, but all it says is that Jesus comes in the name of the Father. Power is not mentioned. Nevertheless, the name of God is power, and Jesus in His manhood came in the power of His Father and the Holy Spirit to show how a man might live in perfect obedience and dependence on God.
response – I have a friend that used to be on this board. He told me that after a while the trinitarians ran in so many circles and contradictions that he just got tired of it. I now understand what he meant.
The fact is you have lied. You say on one hand that Jesus came as an example to the rest of mankind and then claim he has a diffrent nature (fully God and fully man) If you give Jesus a different nature, then you make him non-human. It does not matter how many ways you say he is human if his nature is different then he is different. Since you make Christ non-human, then you deny us the possibility to use him as our example. from your stand we must constantly search everything christ did to determine if it was because of his devine natue or his human nature. You quote scriptures that say Christ was made like his brethren in EVERY WAY and them claim that he is God. You calim to be one of his brethren. Are you also God? Such rediculous contradictions are beyond all resonable accounting. As I quoted in another post, this doctrine cannot be arrived at by act of reason. Those that believe in it must therefore lack or ignor reason.I have answered this last point and now I am done with you. The fact is your accusations about Jesus are so blatantly wrong and blasphemas as to not warrant any more reaction.
Luke 4:14. Hebrews 2:17-18.
God did become a man. The Word was God. The Word became flesh. John 1:14.
Look again at Philippians 2:3 -“with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves.” Now if Jesus were not equal with God, it would not have been humility for Him to have regarded God as more important than Himself. But Jesus existed in the form of God. His humility is shown in that He did not assert His equality with God but humbled Himself by becoming obedient (thus regarding the Father as more important than Himself). If Jesus were inferior to the Father, His example would be one of obedience to a superior. But the context, as you show, is of equals humbling themselves to each other. So Jesus' example only makes sense if He is equal to the Father.
Your examples of Jesus changing refer to the growth of His manhood. I said His Godhead is unchanging.
1 Corinthians 1 is exalting the wisdom and power of God above the wisdom and power of the world. To those who are saved, they understand, and this understanding culminates in the declaration that Jesus is the wisdom and power of God. Don't allegorize the text away.
Regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6
Quote
The Greek makes it more clear, pointing out that all things come from God, but by way of Christ all creation including us have our meaning and purpose. It is through the completion of Christ ministry that the creation fullfills what God created it for.
Actually the Greek just says “One Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things and we through Him.” And you accuse me of being dishonest with the word? And yes, in this context, Lord is a title of deity, for all things are through God. Romans 11:36.Martian wrote:
response – I have a friend that used to be on this board. He told me that after a while the trinitarians ran in so many circles and contradictions that he just got tired of it. I now understand what he meant.
The fact is you have lied. You say on one hand that Jesus came as an example to the rest of mankind and then claim he has a diffrent nature (fully God and fully man) If you give Jesus a different nature, then you make him non-human. It does not matter how many ways you say he is human if his nature is different then he is different. Since you make Christ non-human, then you deny us the possibility to use him as our example. from your stand we must constantly search everything christ did to determine if it was because of his devine natue or his human nature. You quote scriptures that say Christ was made like his brethren in EVERY WAY and them claim that he is God. You calim to be one of his brethren. Are you also God? Such rediculous contradictions are beyond all resonable accounting. As I quoted in another post, this doctrine cannot be arrived at by act of reason. Those that believe in it must therefore lack or ignor reason.
**************Thank you for saying this – I have been searching for a way to put this, and you have done it! Thank you, brother. I'm not as savvy as my brother's here. That is why I am here – to learn how to answer such questions. Please stay and don't leave. I have been learning from you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,07:14) Hi TIm2,
Should you be preaching unity with a doctrine that relies on SUGGESTIONS and is not found written?
Nick
At least on this point you and I agree. Trinitarians must rely on suggestion, revealings and abstract concepts because reason and scripture will not suffice to explain the trinity.
If Tim and others like Him wish to follow mysticism that cannot be explained without using nonscriptural terms and concepts. If their beliefs rely only on revelation then they will fall.
I tell you the truth, my friend, the day is coming when they will be as embarased as those who push evolution. After all they are both based on circular reasoning and ambigous proofs.Martian said:
Quote If Jesus is equal with God why does he say he can do nothing of his qwn accord? Why does He need the help or permission of God? Ok, can we please read John 5:19? My interlinear reads:
“Answered therefore Jesus and was saying to them, truly, truly, I say to you, is not able the Son to do from Himself anything except what He sees the Father doing. For what things That One is doing these things also the Son likewise is doing. 5:20 For the Father is fond of the Son and all things He shows to Him which He does, and greater than these will He show Him works, that you may marvel.”
For what things That One is doing these things likewise the Son is doing. This is complete equality. Jesus does everything that the Father does. There is nothing the Father does that the Son doesn't do. The Father is first in order. That's the confession of the creeds. The Father begets the Son. Hence, everything that the Son has comes from the Father. But by these texts and others (John 16:15) show that Jesus has everything that the Father has. The Father begets a person equal to Himself. That's the only difference between them, and that's the only difference that you've shown.
Jesus is correcting the error that you are apparently having, that if He is equal to the Father, why does He do what the Father does? Why doesn't He just do His own will? Jesus shows that although He is an equal person, He does the same things as the Father. Thus, they are one God. John 10:30. They don't do different works. They do the same works. That is what Jesus is saying, and you believe that if He is not independent of the Father, He is not equal to the Father. Jesus states that He is both equal to the Father and dependent on the Father.
And Jesus is like His brethren in every way. He is fully man. That is the confession of the creeds. Read the Definition of Chalcedon. Jesus has the same nature as you and I. He also has the nature of God. The two natures do not change each other or fuse in any way.
I really don't see why you're getting so upset. Why don't you just calm down, and let's walk through each of these issues one by one, ok?
Tim
There is nothing the Father does that the Son doesn't do.
***********You are going beyond what is written here.
Hi Tim2,
You say
” For what things That One is doing these things also the Son likewise is doing. 5:20 For the Father is fond of the Son and all things He shows to Him which He does, and greater than these will He show Him works, that you may marvel.”For what things That One is doing these things likewise the Son is doing. This is complete equality.”
So equality relates to actions done whether or not the Son must be shown how to do things. So if both CAN do things then that is sufficient evidence that they are absolutely equal? Since you spend most of your time trying to tell us they are the same god why do you bother even to attempt to prove they are equal deities and by such weak means?
Tim,
You are using terms like “Father” and “Son” and they do not mean what I understand them to mean.
You are using terms like “equal” in power and deed of Jesus – while at the same time saying he is “dependant.”You can see how this must be confusing on those who have not studied the creeds.
Hi Tim2,
You say
“The Father begets the Son.”
Actually it is done.
Ps 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.Not3in1,
I'm not going beyond the text. Jesus says what the Father does, He also does. That's explicit. But He repeats Himself in the next verse, The Father shows the Son all things that He is doing. The Son does everything the Father does. No one can do everything that God does except God.
“Son” means that He is begotten of the Father, not at His birth to Mary, but, as the Nicene Creed says, “before all worlds.” It means the Son is from the Father, out of the Father. What don't you understand?
Yes, the Son is equal to the Father. But this doesn't mean He's independent, as in, a separate God with autonomy to do as He pleases. Rather, they are one God. John 10:30. And they are not independent of each other. “All things that are mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine.” John 17:10. All three persons of the Trinity are one, mutually indwelling each other, and cannot therefore be said to be independent of each other.
You and Jesus are alike in the sense that everything you have, that makes you human, your nature, Jesus has. And everything that makes Jesus human, you have. But Jesus also has the nature of being God, which we don't have.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
“No one can do everything that God does except God. “Would you limit God?
What if God empowered someone-as He did with Jesus-to do His work?Acts 10
“38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “Hi All:
I want to post the following scripture and ask your observation of how the Son is “one” with the Father?
17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be “one” in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one”; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.And, how are we then one with the Father and the Son?
God Bless
94,
We discussed this a few days ago, with David I think. Basically, Paul gives the answer in 1 Corinthians. First, believers are the temple of God, and the Spirit dwells in them. 1 Corinthians 3:16. Believers are also members of the body of the Lord. 6:15, 12:13. Finally, they are one Spirit with the Lord. 6:17.
Tim
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