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Is 1:18, what is your take on this scripture:
JOHN 17:21-22
“in order that they may all be one [Lit “one thing”], JUST AS YOU, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, IN ORDER THAT THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE ONE.”Many try to use this to prove the trinity. I think this is incredibly dishonest. Your thoughts?
Quote (david @ April 23 2007,21:30) Quote Because he “emptied” Himself David (Phil 2:6). Of what, his God…ness?
…of the independant usage of the divine privileges, prerogatives and attributes. But He did not empty Himself of divinity (theotes), hence He was still “God”.
Ive answered your question, now will you return the favour?
Quote David, i'm having trouble understanding how the human soul and spirit interface, it's somewhat mysterious to me, can you elucidate it for me? I don't know if I can “eludiate” you. I'll have to consult my dictionary, then get back to you.
Quote ..of the divine privilege, prerogatives and attributes. But He did not empty Himself of divinity (theotes), hence He was still “God”. Doen't being “God” mean you have certain “attributes” such as power?
What does it mean that he emptied himself of the “divine privilege” but “not” of “divinity.”
This seems… please elucidate.Quote Doen't being “God” mean you have certain “attributes” such as power?
No that's just the false dichotomy that you've created David….Quote What does it mean that he emptied himself of the “divine privilege” but “not” of “divinity.”
This seems… please elucidate.
A CEO can divest himself of the privileges, prerogatives and attributes attendant with that lofty position in life and become a street begger, but he remains a human being. Understand?Can you answer my question now?
Quote Ive answered your question, now will you return the favour? Quote David, do you know everything about God? Is there nothing about YHWH that is incompresensible to you?
Do you even understand human ontology, David?
Exactly how does the human soul and spirit interface?
Precisely what is a human “spirit”?
1. Obvioulsy, I don't know everything about God, but then again, neither did the early Christians, yet, they worshipped what they knew, God. (The Bible)
God was not an unfathomable mystery to them, that had to be explained using words that were just as incomprehensible.2 and 3. Nothing that is difficult to understand. This doesn't mean I know everything about God, as you point out, I don't know everything about myself. But what I do know, isn't a mystery that no one truly can understand.
4, and 5. See the “soul” thread, i think. I've never actually discussed this topic with you, as you seem to stick to the trinity threads. But if you want to discuss this, which I don't think you really do, ….
Quote No that's just the false dichotomy that you've created David…. hmmm. I thought that's what the word actually means…someone with power. Tim2 acknowledged this. That is why the word can and could righly be applied to all those who had power and why those who don't have power but are believed to (the idols) are false gods.
Quote A CEO can divest himself of the privileges, prerogatives and attributes attendant with that lofty position in life and become a street begger, but he remains a human being. Understand?
Yes, I understand your comparison. I understand that it isn't an accurate one. If the words “Chief Executive Officer” meant: Person who has a great deal of “privilege, perogatives and certain attributes” and we took these attributes, privileges, etc away, then that CEO wouldn't really be a CEO anymore. yet, this isn't what a CEO means.Looking at the entire Bible, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of what “god” means.
Based on what does it “seem” this way to you?
There is nothing that you, Is 1:18 know everything about. Hence, everything is a mystery to you, according to your reasoning.
This is ridiculous.
A “mystery” is not something we don't totally understand every component of. A mystery is something that CANNOT BE EXPLAINED or baffles our understanding.
God wants us to understand him, invites us to draw close to him, asks us to take in knowledge of him.It's 3.52 here. I'm going to bed.
Quote (david @ April 23 2007,21:49) Yes, I understand your comparison. I understand that it isn't an accurate one. If the words “Chief Executive Officer” meant: Person who has a great deal of “privilege, perogatives and certain attributes” and we took these attributes, privileges, etc away, then that CEO wouldn't really be a CEO anymore. yet, this isn't what a CEO means. Looking at the entire Bible, I believe you are incorrect in your understanding of what “god” means.
Obviously the analogy was limited, it wasn't intended to be an exhaustive explanation. But my point was made, the CEO was a human first and foremost. Although he “emptied” himself and took a lower lot in life, he retained his intrinsic nature.Is it impossible for YHWH to do what Paul described in Philippians 2:6?
Hi Is 1.18,
You say“No that's just the false dichotomy that you've created David….”
Sort of like fully man fully God?
Is 1:18 wrote
Quote A CEO can divest himself of the privileges, prerogatives and attributes attendant with that lofty position in life and become a street begger, but he remains a human being. Understand? But, (as David pointed out), he would no longer be a CEO!
Is 1:18 then wrote:
Quote Obviously the analogy was limited, it wasn't intended to be an exhaustive explanation. But my point was made, the CEO was a human first and foremost. Although he “emptied” himself and took a lower lot in life, he retained his intrinsic nature. Yes, if the issue is nature and not stature, then your analogy is completely wrong. The CEO is not taking on a new nature at all by becoming a beggar, whereas Jesus supposedly did by becoming a human being. A better analogy might be:
An elephant divests himself of the privileges, prerogatives and attributes attendant with being a large warm blooded mammal and becomes a grasshopper, but he remains an elephant?!?!?!?!?!?
The existences are mutually exclusive. In fact, many scholarly Trinitarians recognize this fact, and therefore strongly object to your assertion that Jesus divested himself of anything. Perhaps you should heed their warning:
Quote
The kenosis theory states that Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. Christ did this voluntarily so that He could function as a man in order to fulfill the work of redemption. This view was first introduced in the late 1800s in Germany with Gottfried Thomasius (1802-75), a Lutheran theologian.
Phil. 2:5-8 does not teach that Jesus gave up any of His divine attributes since it says nothing of those attributes. Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature.…
The Kenosis theory is a dangerous doctrine because if it were true then it would mean that Jesus was not fully divine. If Jesus was not fully divine, then His atoning work would not be sufficient to atone for the sins of the world. (from http://www.carm.org)
Tim2 and I covered this in the “Fully God, Fully Man” thread. 'Tis a very tricky subject for Trinitarians – one that even the Trinitarian scholars can't resolve without becoming completely incoherent.
It's like trying to explain how an elephant can be a grasshopper and still be an elephant!
Thank you, Tim, for sharing your personal story. It takes courage to talk about something other than the scriptural debates at hand (here on these boards). Mainly, because you know your post can be parted-out and handed over to the masses (people like me)
I found it interesting that when you were left to your own understanding…the Trinity was not clear. You needed to be taught it. The same was/is true for me. When I am left to my own understanding (as in when I left the church in 2003 and began to study on my own), I could not find the Trinity. Nor did the LORD reveal it to my searching soul. Of course I was open to it; I had been taught it my whole life. But, again, I could not find the Trinity in the scriptures when I was left – unaided by teachers, Pastor's, and creeds.
Since it is by the teacher's and creeds (and only two or three scriptures that you couldn't reconcile) that brought you back to the Trinity, I wonder……would you have returned if you were left to make the decision on your own? It's just an honest question. And I thank you again for sharing this with us.
David,
I wrote that Jesus prayed for the persons of His church to be one body and spirit with Him, just as the persons of the Trinity are one God.
Your response is John 17:22, “That they may all be one, just as We are one.” This Scripture confirms what I said. The persons of the church are one body and one spirit with the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:12, 1 Corinthians 6:17).
Now if Jesus is not God, then this Scripture makes no sense. For believers are all the same thing, they are all men, and Jesus prays for them to be one. So He prayed for persons who are all the same thing to be one. It would make no sense to compare them with two persons who are not the same thing (Jesus and Jehovah). But it makes perfect sense if Jesus and Jehovah are the same thing. To use an inadequate analogy, it would be like Bismark saying during the unification of Germany, “Just as France is one nation, so Germany should be one nation.” But you would have him say something absurd like, “Just as France and Spain are one nation, so Germany should be one nation.”
Oh, and Revelation 5:13 describes the same worship being given to the Father and to the Lamb, and in case you weren't clear, 5:14 calls it worship. How is this vague?
Regarding the other gods, like I said, none of them compare to Jesus. Jesus is exalted to such a high status in Scripture (above all He's declared to be God and equal to the Father, but you reject this) that YHWH would be incredibly jealous if Jesus were another god. But you believe that another god besides YHWH is your saviour, Lord, creator, knows all things, all things are for him, all things are through him, is first and last, is before all things, was in the beginning with God, eternal life is to know him and YHWH, receives the some praise as YHWH, is the power and wisdom of YHWH, and so forth.
That's ridiculous. I will never believe that for one second. YHWH and YHWH alone is worthy of those things.
Tim
Not3,
You're right. I did not return to the Trinity on my own. It was only the grace of the Holy Spirit that brought me back to the truth. And He did this by means of sound teaching in Christian fellowship. This is the way God intended for His people to grow and learn, with the help of each other, not every man for himself, thinking everyone else was an idiot and deceived, but submitting to one another. I find it alarming that there is a trend today that everyone has to discover the truth for himself. This is not what the Bible teaches. Paul did not go around saying, “Jesus rose from the dead. Now go read your Old Testament and decide for yourself what this means.” The Bereans did not deduce that Jesus was Lord based on independent study. They were taught the truth by Paul, and saw that it was confirmed by the Bible. This is how we are supposed to learn. Likewise, my assurance came from reading the Bible. I knew Jesus was equal to the Father when I read John 5:18. And I knew they were one God when I read Deuteronomy 4:35.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
You say
'And I knew they were one God '
THEY?
God is ONE.
Who taught Paul?
Gamaliel, Peter, John ,James or JesusHi tim2,
When you worship Jesus surely you believe you are worshiping the one God.
If so why do you ascribe his own deity status to Christ?
Is that not polytheism?Quote (Tim2 @ April 24 2007,07:59) Not3, You're right. I did not return to the Trinity on my own. It was only the grace of the Holy Spirit that brought me back to the truth. And He did this by means of sound teaching in Christian fellowship. This is the way God intended for His people to grow and learn, with the help of each other, not every man for himself, thinking everyone else was an idiot and deceived, but submitting to one another. I find it alarming that there is a trend today that everyone has to discover the truth for himself. This is not what the Bible teaches. Paul did not go around saying, “Jesus rose from the dead. Now go read your Old Testament and decide for yourself what this means.” The Bereans did not deduce that Jesus was Lord based on independent study. They were taught the truth by Paul, and saw that it was confirmed by the Bible. This is how we are supposed to learn. Likewise, my assurance came from reading the Bible. I knew Jesus was equal to the Father when I read John 5:18. And I knew they were one God when I read Deuteronomy 4:35.
Tim
I cannot see how you get equality from John 5:38. The Jews accuse Jesus of claiming equality with God. Jesus answered them in following verses by saying.
19 – Jesus can do nothing of himself. Equal?
22 & 27 – God gave Jesus authority to Judge. Equal?
30 – Jesus can do nothing of his own initiative. Equal?
36 &37 The Father sent Him. Equal?
44 Jesus calls the Father “the one and only God”. And He is not talking about himself and the Father. Equal?Martian,
John 5:18 doesn't say that anyone thought Jesus was equal to God. It says He was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Jesus confirms this by showing three points of equality in the subsequent verses:
5:19 -Whatever the Father does, the Son also does.
5:21 -Just as the Father raises the dead, the Son raises whom He will.
5:23 -All men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father.Jesus also shows other points of equality with God that are derived from the Father as part of His nature of being the Son:
5:22 -The Father does not judge any man, but has given all judgment to the Son.
5:26 -The Father has life in Himself, and has given to the Son to have life in Himself.And then, finally, Jesus' authority and judgment as man is shown in 5:27.
So yes, Jesus is equal to the Father.
Tim
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