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Quote (Tim2 @ April 20 2007,16:02) David, Thanks for the post. I think the nontrinitarians are wrong.
1. The Trinity is rational. The idea of multiple persons being one is found throughout Scripture, starting with husband and wife in Genesis 2:24. It's also stated concerning Jesus and the Father in John 10:30, and of the persons in the church and the Lord in 1 Corinthians 6:17, which is reaffirmed in Ephesians 5:32.
2. The Trinity is taught in Scripture. I've started a Trinity verses thread. But you know that the Bible affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God: John 17:3, John 1:1, Acts 5:4.
3. The divinity of Jesus is explicit. John 1:1. The verses you show relate to Jesus in his manhood, which is inferior to God.
4. The only word in the creeds not explicitly used in the Bible is substance. The meaning of substance is the meaning the Bible gives to the unity of the three persons.
5. The fact that there are fewer verses about the Spirit does not make Him less divine. Saying it once or twice is enough. Acts 5:4. 2 Corinthians 3:17.
6. The Trinity is monotheistic. The creeds explicitly say that there is one God, and this is what the term consubstantial means.
7. Those verses don't contradict the Trinity. Saying that the Father is the one God is consistent with the Trinity, for there is only one God, and each person is that God.
8. The Son is subordinate to the Father with respect to His manhood, but not His Godhead. And John 5:19 affirms the Son's equality for it states, “Whatever the Father does, the Son does also.”
9. Jesus is YHWH. Paul says as much in Romans 10:13, as does Hebrews 1:10. And of course Jesus says it in John 8:58.
10. Those aren't ontological differences at all. They just show the two persons relating to each other. The only ontological difference would be that Jesus is man as well as God, which is consisted with all those verses.
11. Many pagans believed in a trinity of gods, but this is not what the Trinity teaches. The Trinity is a Trinity of persons who are one God. This is not found anywhere else.
Tim
Hi,
The 11 rationalisations of Tim
do not make trinity one scriptural fact.I love you too Not3in1. I even love Nick. That's why I'm rebuking you. A true friend rebukes. An enemy flatters.
Not3in1 said this on the monogenes forum:
Tim2,
Yes, the scriptures call Jesus God, they call the Father God, they call the Holy Spirit God – YES, YES, YES!!!! But what some have said so well, is that it is the context of which each is called God that we need to draw our attention to. Adam Pastor did a lovely job of pointing this out. Did you read his post?The Holy Spirit is called God because that is WHO God is, so that is more than appropriate. It doesn't (have to) mean that the Holy Spirit is a different person (yet the same) as God?
The Father is God – no one is arguing this.
Jesus is called God (god) – and no one is arguing that he is called thus. But it is the context by which he is called God (god), and what it means. It doesn't (have to) mean that he is the second person of this same one
God. Scripture also can be interpreted other ways, as Adam Pastor and other's have pointed out.
But just as Nick won't listen to you, and you get upset and frustrated. So you won't listen to others.
What's left to talk about? I hope a ton! I'm starting to really enjoy this board and the discussions (debates). Most of the folks in my life are not interested in theological debates or ponderings. Like some people are interested in politics (snor), I love talking about biblical topics. So, finding this board has been exciting. I hope there is still a lot to talk about.
Maybe try to be less condeming and you'll last longer – otherwise, you're going to burn out. And I'll miss you here……
So we agree that the Father is God. good.
We also agree, “The Holy Spirit is Who God is.” Great. So far we've established that the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The only question left is whether or not the Holy Spirit is the Father. The answer is a clear no. The Holy Spirit is shown in distinction from the Father in Jesus' baptism (written 3 times for ol' Nick here). But Jesus teaches this explicitly in John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said.” Again in 15:26, “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.” Jesus distinguishes between three here: The Father, Himself, and the Spirit. So the Spirit is not the Father. But since we've already agreed that the Spirit is God, we've agree that the Father and the Spirit are God, and they are not each other.
That leaves us with Jesus, Whom you agree is called God. The context of John 1:1 is pretty clear. It's the beginning. Nothing has been created, but the Word is. Now we know that God created all things. Revelation 4:11. And the Word is subsequently described as creating all things. So I'd say the context pretty strongly says that Jesus is God.
Then there's John 20:28. Jesus is risen. Thomas calls Him, “My Lord and my God.” Look again at Revelation 4:11. Him on the throne is called, “our Lord and our God.” So, Lord and God = God = Jesus.
And then of course comes “theos.” Adam claims that Moses was called God, but he was actually called “El,” which is used much more liberally in the OT than theos in the New Testament, which is always used of God or else is qualified, as with Satan, the theos of this world. Now Jesus is called Theos over all creation in Romans 9:6, but that's hardly a qualification if you ask me.
Tim
You mean abuse it by imposing arbitrary verses on it and then insisting that every point of doctrine be found in one of these arbitrary verses?
Hi Tim2,
Yes it is a nuisance for some but if we call Jesus Lord we do have to find spiritual truth only in scripture, and then find supporting verses to establish it as fact.
We must abide in the Word of God.
The rest is useless.Nick,
That makes no sense. I've given you proof from Scripture that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, and your only response is that this is stated in more than one verse? Are you serious?
Yes Tim2,
We do not craft doctrines.
We find them written and then share them.
Jesus is the teacher, we are just poor servants.Hi Tim2,
It is better for us to listen to Jesus and his anointed teachers.
You speak as a stranger who brings confusion to God's children.Quote (Tim2 @ April 20 2007,07:59) Adam claims that Moses was called God, but he was actually called “El,” …
Tim
I gather you are not too well acquainted with the Hebrew language. Where in Scripture is Moses actually called “El,” as you put it??
Which verse(s) please?Jehovah – The Family Name of God. (All Three are Jehovah)
1. Jehovah the Father.
2. Christ is Jehovah.
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(Even the Arian's own bible cannot hide the truth)Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Another favorite passage of mine on this topic would have to be Isaiah 6:3
Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to Jehovah the Father… Jehovah the Son Jesus Christ… and Jehovah the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 20 2007,23:32) Jehovah – The Family Name of God. (All Three are Jehovah) 1. Jehovah the Father.
2. Christ is Jehovah.
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(Even the Arian's own bible cannot hide the truth)Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1. Jehovah the Father.2. Christ is Jehovah.
3. Jehovah the Holy Spirit.
CB, aren't one and three the same?
Baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
The apostles baptized in Jesus' name only. Why?
I'd have to say something doesn't fit. Why wouldn't the apostles carry out the command of Jesus.
If you baptize in the name of Jesus then you baptize in the name of the Father and if the name of the Father then of the Holy Spirit also because the Holy Spirit has no name other than that of the Father.
The person Jesus has his own personality being flesh and spirit as you and I (Son of man). But as we all know He has the Holy spirit (God) without measure so He is the Son of God being the expressed image of the Father.
Has the Holy Spirit a personality of it's own? Or of the Father?
We ourselves have a measure of the Holy Spirit (GOD). We are children of God because we have the Holy Spirit.
GOD all in all ! Through HIS SPIRIT God's children have God.
Of course we would not have access to the Holy Spirit without Jesus.
Luk 10:21 At that time Jesus was filled with joy by the Holy Spirit and said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned. Yes, Father, this was how you were pleased to have it happen.
Jesus filled with joy by the Holy Spirit began to speak to the Father who is the Holy spirit.
IHN&L,
Ken
Adam,
That's right. I don't know Hebrew. Do you? Was Moses called something other than El or Elohim? Please tell me. Because the judges of men were called Elohim (Psalm 82, and many think, in Exodus 21:6 and 22:9). In any event, I don't see how Moses being made “as” God in relation to Pharaoh somehow suggests that in the beginning, the Word was not God.
Ken,
The Father and the Holy Spirit are not the same. The voice during Jesus' baptism came from heaven, not the dove. And Jesus distinguished the Holy Spirit from the Father in John 14:16 and 15:26.
Tim
Is it a sin to be decieved?
Come out of her MY people. Though deceived, they are still His people. Rev. 18:4
******************Ken, this is deep. I'm going to be pondering this today. And thanks for the grace that this idea extends!
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