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Quote Well the Encyclopedia of Religion can go to gehenna along with every other heretic. This is of course absurd.
What all these encyclopedias and history show is that the “trinity” belief took several hundred years of debate to formulate. Hence, it is not what the early Christians believed.
Hence, IT is the heresy.david
Yes david,
Anyone foolish enough to place their trust in their human leadership for salvation, be it Catholic or Anabaptist or JW, needs to look again. There is no salvation under heaven in any name but that of Jesus.This is the trinity thread Nick. To not throw the conversation off, please place your anti whatever propaganda somewhere more appropriate.
Not3in1,
It is not I who condemn you, but God. If you receive a different Jesus, you are not saved. I wrote “pretty clear” in order to reach out to the unbelievers, that they might at least agree with this, and in time see the truth in all its clarity, not because the text isn't clear, but because their sin makes it unclear.
Tim
t8,
If I'm honest I'll read your website? Thanks, but I've seen enough heresy for one day.
David,
4 encyclopedias, 3 of which are clearly not Christian? And we're supposed to believe these liars? How about every single Christian for the past 2000 years? You say the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't formalized in creeds until the 4th century? That's because it was taught in the Bible in the first century, and it wasn't necessary to put it in a creed until arian heretics attacked it in the 4th century. I have a challenge. Show me one orthodox Christian prior to Nicea who said that Jesus was a created being, or a lesser god?
What part of “My Lord and My God” don't you understand?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
The trinity PROPOSITION is not at all clear in scripture.
Can you show us how you came up with this odd finding?Hi Tim2,
Not quite 2000. Jesus and the apostles never mentioned any trinity.
It developed later as a heresy
that became orthodoxy.Quote (Tim2 @ April 19 2007,09:18) Show me one orthodox Christian prior to Nicea who said that Jesus was a created being, or a lesser god?
Your question is a bit inapt.
Because what do you consider 'orthodox'?
'If' it is someone who believes in the so-called deity of Christ; then if one shows your pre-Nicene quotes of people who did not subscribe to that view, you would say, they were heretics!
Therefore, your question is pointless.Indeed, many have studied the history of the true Christian faith; and have come to the conclusion that the eary church were indeed (biblically) unitarian in their belief.
That is, the early church recognized solely ONE Person/Being who is Almighty GOD, that is, the Father;
and that the man Messiah Jesus of Nazareth was the ONE GOD's son!
Indeed many trinitarians having researched the history of the church; after discovering these things, abandoned the doctrine of the Trinity. And called upon solely ONE Person/Being as GOD Almighty, viz. the Father; whilst proclaiming that their Lord & Master, is Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son.So the info is out there if you care to do the homework.
There are indeed quotes of early believers who recognized solely the Father as the ONE GOD; and Jesus as the ONE GOD's Son. In the 3rd century many believers protested at Rome stating that the biblical unitarian belief was the original belief!Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 20 2007,01:57) Quote (Tim2 @ April 19 2007,09:18) Show me one orthodox Christian prior to Nicea who said that Jesus was a created being, or a lesser god?
Your question is a bit inapt.
Because what do you consider 'orthodox'?
'If' it is someone who believes in the so-called deity of Christ; then if one shows your pre-Nicene quotes of people who did not subscribe to that view, you would say, they were heretics!
Therefore, your question is pointless.Indeed, many have studied the history of the true Christian faith; and have come to the conclusion that the eary church were indeed (biblically) unitarian in their belief.
That is, the early church recognized solely ONE Person/Being who is Almighty GOD, that is, the Father;
and that the man Messiah Jesus of Nazareth was the ONE GOD's son!
Indeed many trinitarians having researched the history of the church; after discovering these things, abandoned the doctrine of the Trinity. And called upon solely ONE Person/Being as GOD Almighty, viz. the Father; whilst proclaiming that their Lord & Master, is Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son.So the info is out there if you care to do the homework.
There are indeed quotes of early believers who recognized solely the Father as the ONE GOD; and Jesus as the ONE GOD's Son. In the 3rd century many believers protested at Rome stating that the biblical unitarian belief was the original belief!
APAnd there has been many “Unitarians” that have done studies of the Church and the writings of the the early Fathers and come to the conclusion that God is more than One Person.
Therefore it seems like your point is pointless!
And there has been many “Unitarians” that have done studies of the Church and the writings of the the early Fathers and come to the conclusion that God is more than One Person.
********************************************I have.
When I denounced the Trinity, I didn't do so before I looked at both sides of the coin.
In my library you will find more Trinitarian writers than Unitarian.
Of course I looked at both sides………that's why I'm not a TrinitarianPoint well made, Adam Pastor. And by the way, I'm glad you are here!
Tim2,
I have empathy for you because I have been in your shoes (contending for the Trinity, while believing that if anyone doesn't believe in the Trinity they are not saved.)Let God do the convicting. Nowhere in scripture are we as Christians instructed to determine who is not going to be with the Lord, and his God in Paradise. You have taken that un-necessary burden upon yourself. It's a heavy burden, too; I know from experience. I encourage you to share the truth you know, while not condeming others for the truth that they know.
I may not believe what you and WJ (and other Trinitarians) believe, but I certainly do not wish condemnation on any of you. And who am I to say that you are not the Lord's? Do I know your hearts? No. Only the Lord knows who are his. So quit being the Town Cryer, OK? Frankly, it makes me gloss over any posts you write – I know you are sending me to hell, so why read anything you have to say?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2007,03:44) And there has been many “Unitarians” that have done studies of the Church and the writings of the the early Fathers and come to the conclusion that God is more than One Person.
********************************************I have.
When I denounced the Trinity, I didn't do so before I looked at both sides of the coin.
In my library you will find more Trinitarian writers than Unitarian.
Of course I looked at both sides………that's why I'm not a TrinitarianPoint well made, Adam Pastor. And by the way, I'm glad you are here!
Not3Epistomaniac and Tim2 were both previously Non-Trinitarian and both after a closer study and acceptance of all the scriptures came to the conclusion that the Trinitarian view is the only way to harmonize all of the scriptures.
So no Not3 and Ap your point is pointless!
I think tha tTim2 and WorshippingJesus have made some excellent arguments
in support of their belief in the trinity. Such good arguments in fact that the only reason that
I can come up with that I still do not believe in it myself, is that a much higher power is
preventing me from accepting that conclusion.That power could be satan deceiving me I suppose, anything is possible.
But I do not think that is the case, because I can feel the protection of God when I study.
I feel Him slowly bringing me to a better understanding of Him. No flash of brilliance, but a steady
unveiling.And believe it or not. It has been some of the posts from Tim2 and worshippingJesus that have helped
to clarify some things. But they have not brought me to their conclusions.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 20 2007,05:59) I think tha tTim2 and WorshippingJesus have made some excellent arguments
in support of their belief in the trinity. Such good arguments in fact that the only reason that
I can come up with that I still do not believe in it myself, is that a much higher power is
preventing me from accepting that conclusion.That power could be satan deceiving me I suppose, anything is possible.
But I do not think that is the case, because I can feel the protection of God when I study.
I feel Him slowly bringing me to a better understanding of Him. No flash of brilliance, but a steady
unveiling.And believe it or not. It has been some of the posts from Tim2 and worshippingJesus that have helped
to clarify some things. But they have not brought me to their conclusions.Tim
Hey TimI am really glad that you are getting closer to the Lord and he is revealing things to you.
I can tell you also for myself he is closer to me also than ever in my walk with him for 33 years.
As I parise him with my Guitar and the worship songs he has given I feel him drawing me closer.
God knows our hearts and no one can be our judge except him.
Blessings
Not 3in1,
I know it isn't pleasant to be rebuked for heresy, but is what God commands His people to do. See how the false prophets are rebuked in Lamentations 2:14, “They have not exposed your iniquity, so as to restore you from captivity.” This isn't a case of holier than thou. Everyone, you, me, Nick, needs to be rebuked for their sin, or we will die. Proverbs 27:5: better is open rebuke than love that is concealed. What do you think would have been better for the people of Nineveh, for Jonah to have told them to repent, or to have had a kind dialogue with them about their choice of god and wished them well?
Jesus' message is the same for all of us: repent or perish.
Tim
Epistomaniac and Tim2 were both previously Non-Trinitarian and both after a closer study and acceptance of all the scriptures came to the conclusion that the Trinitarian view is the only way to harmonize all of the scriptures.
***********************
Oh. OK. I'll change what I feel the LORD has shown me because the majority rules. Sorry, I don't follow the crowd, WJ. Narrow is the way………..Everyone is free to believe or not believe what they wish. Everyone has a point to make here, or they wouldn't be here. Everyone matters, WJ. Were you a bully in grade school?
Hi Tim2,
Your words woul be less hollow and perhaps have the power to convict if you spoke from the basis of truth. Instead you come here with a PROPOSITION and then declare that all who will not accept it and your new God are lost. Even the Athenians would find that amusing.TimV,
Be careful. Fine sounding arguments should not be your ruler that guides you to truth…..
Colossians 2:4
I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2007,07:39) Epistomaniac and Tim2 were both previously Non-Trinitarian and both after a closer study and acceptance of all the scriptures came to the conclusion that the Trinitarian view is the only way to harmonize all of the scriptures.
***********************
Oh. OK. I'll change what I feel the LORD has shown me because the majority rules. Sorry, I don't follow the crowd, WJ. Narrow is the way………..Everyone is free to believe or not believe what they wish. Everyone has a point to make here, or they wouldn't be here. Everyone matters, WJ. Were you a bully in grade school?
not3The point I make is that there are those on both sides that have accepted change because of their proposed revelation of scriptures.
So argueing that one side or the other is right because of this is pointless.
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