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Quote (t8 @ June 04 2002,23:08) Thanx for the post. This post replies to Ambassador of Christ, LodeRunner and JW.
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To Ambassador of Christ,Yeah I can understand your time constraints. I too am busy as I maintain a number of websites. I understand that this discussion takes time and I have no expectations. Please feel free to think the same about me. If I don't post for a while it is because I am busy, but I will definately post eventually.
Here is a response to some of the questions.
As far as creation is concerned the Father works through Jesus Christ his Word, because creation was created from God, through Christ, (See 1 Corinthians 8:6). It is the Fathers gift to his Son. It is not because the Father needs the Son in that way, it's simply that the Father chooses to work through His Son because God is generous, and he is giving and He loves his Son. It's the same with Christ. He chooses to work through us, with regards to preaching the gospel etc, but we cannot say that Jesus cannot function properly without us. It's just about who gets delegated what, and it is all given originally by the Father. The Father is Almighty and nothing is impossible for Him except sin.
Who knows his greatness, no-one can know him, but only the Son can reveal him to us (See John 1:18). As Jesus said “The Father seeks those that will worship Him in Truth and Spirit, (see John 4:23-24). We were created to worship Him forever. It is Jesus who will reveal, teach and demonstrate God's goodness to us for eternity, (see John 1:18).
You also asked the following: “Do you believe that He is eternal, having always existed, or do you believe that He is not eternal, but was created by the Father? Either way, what scripture backs up your belief”?
Well I can only answer these questions with scripture.
Was Jesus Created?
Definately not, because God created all of creation through his Word, therefore creation came from the Word and Jesus cannot come from the Word because he is the Word. (See John 1:3) Jesus came directly from the Father, he is the only begotten of the Father, begotten means born. This is why Jesus is unique. He is between God and Man (creation). He is the only Mediator and the only way. He is the Son of God. The Firstborn. See (Hebrews 1:6) & (Colossians 1:15)Has he existed forever? I do not know. All I know is that somewhere in eternity, God became a Father when he begat a Son and through the Son God created all things and God created all things for the Son. If we say Jesus had a beginning, perhaps we limit him to time and creation, I don't know alot about eternity (I sometimes wonder if time was made in the image of eternity), I only know some of the scriptures, and they say and that he is is the only born Son of God, to deny this is to deny that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.
Remember that Jesus is the firstborn of many Sons, he will call us brethren (brothers) but to our Father, we will always be his beloved children.
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To LodeRunner,You say that Jesus must be fully man and fully God at the same time, otherwise he couldn't die for the sins of humanity. I agree with your reasoning that Jesus must have been a Man in order to save Men. The scriptures are clear that he became a Man and it is obvious that he was a Man. He walked, talked and ate like a man. He was also born of a woman. But to say that he was fully God is something else. It really depends on what you mean by God, Jesus said we are gods (theos) and there are many God's, Jesus is the Mighty God, but there is only One Most High God and that is the Father (see 1 Corinthians 8:5-6).
The scriptures tell us that God became flesh right? I know many say this, but the scriptures simply do not say this, this is a lie. It says that the Word became Flesh. It also says that God was in Christ redeeming the world back to himself. But it doesn't say anywhere that God became flesh. To say this is a mis-representation of scripture.
God is Spirit and flesh is flesh. God is not a Man that he should lie (See Numbers 23:19). God cannot sin, so how could God take sin upon himself, if God cannot tolerate sin nor fellowship with it, he cannot even look upon it. This is why Christ is the Mediator. There needs to exist a Mediator between God and Man. God cannot fellowship with sin and Man cannot fellowship with a Holy God. The answer is Jesus. He is in the unique position to not only save us, but also to present us to God, holy and blameless (See 1 Corinthians 1:8). This message is really what salvation is all about and I am sure that we all know this. Remember if Jesus is seated at the right hand of God and we (the redeemed) are seated at the right hand of Christ, then who is in between God and Man, it's Christ. Also this is why God turned away from his Son on the cross, because God cannot look upon sin, Jesus became sin for us. How do you explain your reasoning that God took upon himself the sin of the world. This is impossible. It was the Word, who is Jesus who took the sin of the world upon him.
You say that Jesus must be God, because a mere man isn't big enaough to die for all of humanity. Yes you are right, a man can die for a man, and the blood of animals can cover sin for a moment, but to say that Jesus is God because Man isn't big enough to die for all men is human reasoning, and it is actually not scriptural. Remember that Jesus is the Word, and creation came from the Word. So the Word is greater than all of creation. He is the source of creation, the beginning of the creation of God, (See Revelation 3:14). So the Word died for us, God never died.
It is the Word that created us. It is the Word who is redeeming us back to God our Father. This is central to the message of salvation. Jesus died for our sins, God didn't die. If God died, then I can assure you that there would be nothing left living. It is impossible for God to die. It is impossible for God to look upon sin, never mind take it all on himself. God has nothing to do with sin and God cannot die. The Devil tries to convince us that God is dead because he never existed. But it is also a suttle lie to say that God died for our sins. God cannot die, God will never die, nor can God ever die. He is the God of the living, not the dead. (see Luke 20:38)
I am not too sure about what you say about the scriptures being tainted with prejudice, apart from this fact. The King James Bible actually added in a scripture to try and give some clear evidence that the trinity was taught in the bible. That scripture is (1 John 5:7) and it is not mentioned in any other latter bible (as far as I know) because it was clearly added in as an extra. Actually that scripture was a footnote in the script that the King Kames was translated from. It was added into the bible by the King James scholars who were pro-trinity of course. They were obviously hard-up for an obvious teaching on the trinity. My reasoning says that they wouldn't have needed to resort to such a deperate measure if the bible taught the trinity. It is actually the latter bibles such as the NIV and NASB etc that recognise this deception and omit this verse for good reason. But I cannot comment on what you say here, because I do not have such knowledge about these things.
You then mention Arius. It is thought that Arius was poisoned, it proves nothing. You make out that his fate was similar to Judas Iscariot. I could say the same thing about Peter or Paul, they too were killed. Whether he was a Martyr or God took him out is something that God knows. I think you shouldn't judge a person that lived over a thousand years ago, especially because you know very little about him and your judgement is based on the fragility of recorded history with all the bias of the power of that day. Perhaps Arius was a true seeker
of the truth because he taught that Jesus was begotten, and Athanasius taught that Jesus wasn't begotten but is equal to the Father. Athanasius to this day is known as the Father of the Catholics. Look at the history of the Catholic Church and all the martyrs it has claimed, yes I rely on history for this understanding, but there is alot of clear evidence about the sins of the Catholic Church, even to this day. We shouldn't judge with little evidence. God will also judge you with that same measure. Imagine if Arius was truly a man of God, if so then you have slandered him. You should only judge that what you know is sure, otherwise you risk a harsher judgement yourself. I say this for your own good. What was Arius's sin and don't give me heresy, heresy is another name for the fear of man. Remember that Luther was a heretic and I am sure that Jesus was a heretic to the Pharasees, and anyway you shouldn't kill those that disagree with you. I think that is the real sin, Murder. Jesus teachings are heretical to many church organisations even though they would deny it. After you have showm me Arius's great sin that deserved you comparing him to Judas, then show me proof that he actually did what you say. Also what do you mean by “excommunicated”. Kicked out of Jesus Christs Church (the Body of Christ) or the man-made church, or perhaps you have some other meaning. Sorry if I seem harsh about this, but I mean to be firm.Lastly you say that if we deny that Jesus is God, then we must conclude that Jesus is a false prophet. But you have ignored the obvious. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is Lord. The Father is God. See (1 Corinthians 8:6).
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To JW,You mention that you are a Jehovahs Witness, well that means nothing to me. I don't judge by labels, but by the fruit that is in your life. Jesus never said to people that he was the Son of God, he let his Father in Heaven reveal that. It is the carnal nature that needs to puts labels onto people because they have no spiritual discernment. The Pharasees called Jesus a “drunkard” and the Pharasees claimed to be “Teachers of the Law”, but it is only by their fruit that you will know them. Jesus helped people even on the Sabbath, the Pharasees judged Jesus as unlawful for helping people on the Sabbath. What you say and what you do are 2 different things.
You mention alot of quotes, maybe from the Watch Tower, but I am not sure who these quotes are from, are they Jehovahs Witnesses or people from lots of different backgrounds?
It is interesting what you say about the article in John 1:1. I was aware of this, but I don't understand the consequences of this yet, because I haven't looked into it in great detail, but I know that the difference is notable. John 1:1 is probably the most popular verse for those that believe in the 3 persons 1 God formula. I doubt that anyone would come to the conclusion of a trinity if they read John 1:1, without bias or indoctrination.
I look forward to further input from you, especially about the article and it's possible meanings.
actually, the Father did become flesh, I can't understand why people seem to think that we have a God who needs two other God's to help him out. God is not on his throne using two other beings having one to speak for him and the other to carry out spiritual purpose. God is one and has always been one. We all know that God puts his Word above all other things, he never does anything without speaking it first,hence in the beginning was the Word….He spoke, and things came in to being. As for the Father, it is not a different person, not a piece of a three headed God. The Father is God in parental relationship to man, Being in old testiment times it showed us that no matter what, man can never get to know the true nature of God due to sin. That is where the Son comes in, Jesus is God in human relationship, God in the flesh. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, but Why? Because the word begotten means Flesh, but Jesus pre-existed before he was rapped in flesh. Jesus was eternal from the first and was not the Son before he was flesh and became The Son when he was rapped in flesh, he is the Father made known to us. Lets remember that because he was in the flesh, he can never claim equality to God because he was made lesser than angels because of The Flesh.Jesus is our example of how to come to god as a child, he is our Father figure. Yes Jesus is the word of God but it means that he is the personification of God speaking. God is a king, and a kings authority is in his right hand, we all know that the symbolism of a mighty ruler or King rules with an Iron fist, his right hand. Jesus is that right hand, because God's authority and power are in his word. God is Holy, and he speaks…God has a mouth people.Good stuff T8,
Ditty you seem to have trouble separating The Logos and the Father.Jesus IS the WORD or LOGOS .There is a separation as the Logos is the image of the Father and the Father is His God. Scripture tells us that Jesus pre existed his human life AS the Son of God and He was always greater than the angels except for His brief time in His human life.
Psalm 2 .7 tells us the Logos became the Son when He was begotten and as you know that was “in the beginning”. This is confirmed in Heb 1 and 2 where it also says He was made “For a little while lower than the angels”[2.7 and 9]
God is not Father to natural man. Jesus called Him “My Father” but spoke otherwise of GOD. He only gave the OUR FATHER prayer to His followers as that is the wonderful message He brought to us-that we could join the family of God in Him. He only becomes your Father when you are born again into Jesus.
Also Jesus is AT the right hand of God, not IS the right hand.ditty,
The LOGOS was in the beginning with GOD.
(He was with him.)
The LOGOS became flesh and dwelt among us.
(The one who was with God in the beginning came to us)
And these things were written so that you would know that Jesus is God? That Jesus is the Father?
NO
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…
That is the true confession. The Trinity and Oneness try to persuade men away from this important truth.
Acts 8:36-37
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?”
37 Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” The eunuch answered, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.To believe that Jesus is the Father in flesh is another gospel.
Quote (Guest @ Oct. 02 2004,12:28) actually, the Father did become flesh
ditty,Your words are a serious error.
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,By saying that the Father came in the flesh could only lead one to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
If Oneness Doctrine were true, then 1 John 4:2 would mean that we have to believe that the Father who came in the Flesh (Jesus as you say) then came in the flesh. So he has 2 layers of flesh according to that interpretation.
Please do not pass over this quickly.
You must believe that Jesus came in the flesh (not the Father) and your interpretation of who Jesus is, makes a mockery of 1 John 4:2 and renders it not only illogical, but makes that scripture out as a lie.
Other Oneness followers who have posted here have also said that Jesus is the Father in flesh. They said that when Jesus said “not my will but your will”, that was the flesh talking to the Eternal Spirit (the Father).
So by your words ditty, you demonstrate that you and the spirit in you is not of God.
BTW
The Trinity Doctrine also tries to get men to believe that God (the Most High, Yahweh) became flesh. It's just as well that most do not really understand what this doctrine is really saying.
It was Jesus who came in the flesh. Jesus pre-existed as the Logos and was with God in the beginning. Jesus is not Yahweh as the Trinity Doctrine teaches and Jesus is not the Father as Oneness Doctrine teaches.
The true gospel proves that.
Yes Elisha,
According to my source the library was started by Origen, was added to by Pamphilus and then Eusebius.It was stated by Jerome that there was a copy of Matthew's gospel, probably in Hebrew, held in that library.
The library was destroyed by Diocetian.
Eusebius himself was a Trinitarian who sat at Constantines Right hand at the Council at Nicaea and seemed to be able to sit on the fence and play both sides against each other when necessary.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Aug. 14 2002,05:22) To Ambassador of Christ, What I believe has not necessarily been a long journey but a difficult one. I attend a church that believes in the trinity and I have tried to accept this belief as I don’t wish to be the odd one out. I have studied the scripture only to find that there is no Trinity. I have taken much material off the internet in regard to the Trinity and studied it, but God keeps showing me different. I do not push my view on anyone, I dislike information I read on the internet that states that if I don’t believe in the Trinity I am lost (remember that how you judge you shall also be judged – so everyone should be very careful when making such judgements). Please show me the scripture that says I must believe that God is a trinity made up of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I am not, and have never been a JW. I was baptised as a baby a Roman Catholic but no longer follow that denomination. I have been studying the scripture only a short time compared to many. I read it at every opportunity, I can’t seem to get enough of it. God keeps showing me things each time I read it. I have not done a great deal of study in the Old Testament and I can’t remember Chapter and verse like many others. I purchased a computer Bible (CD) which has many bible versions as well as commentaries, cross-references, Strong’s, dictionary and other books. Everything at the flick of a button, or just pop in a phrase (much easier than many bibles and other books open all over the floor).
What I believe:
GOD
There is only one God (Yahweh) the Father. He created all thing through his Son, Jesus. I worship one God (Yahweh) and I worship Jesus as the Son of God and as Lord.1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
JESUS
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe we have salvation through him. I believe that God is Jesus’ Father and his God.John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
HOLY SPIRIT
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Not a separate person or a force but God’s actual spirit. God sends part of his spirit to live in us. Jesus was guided by God’s spirit when he was on earth, even given the spirit without limit.John 4:24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
matthew 10::20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.When I read the bible I find many passages that show that God and Jesus are two persons. The following for example. Acts 7:55,56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.Please explain to me how, if Jesus is standing on the right hand of GOD, you can say he is God. How is this possible? Can you tell me honestly that if you saw the heavens roll back, like Stephen did, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of GOD, that you would still say that Jesus is God?
Why is the teaching of the trinity never mentioned in any of the Letters written by the apostles? Paul preached to Gentiles who did not know God and yet he never clarified this point. They had never studied the Old Testament and became believers by the words that Paul spoke to them, yet he never taught the Trinity. The start of all letters shows God and Jesus as two separate persons, as can be seen below.
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1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Galatians 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Galatians 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,Ephesians 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Philippians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
1 Thessalonians 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Thess
alonians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
1 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve with a pure conscience, as my forefathers did, as without ceasing I remember you in my prayers night and day,Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God‘s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Jude 1:1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
WHAT I DON’T BELIEVE:
I don’t believe in – God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and that they are all one God. To me this is a three headed god. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus refered to as ‘God the Son’ nor is the Holy Spirit referred to as ‘God the Holy Spirit’ (please refer to Holy Spirit – above).So, your question was – DO I BELIEVE THAT THE FATHER IS GOD BUT THE SON IS NOT. – Yes, I believe that.
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The house analogy was rather crude but was an effective way to show that something can be created through someone without them actually building it. I don’t believe that Jesus will be the future owner as the house analogy leans towards, I believe he will rule as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. God created this world through his son, for his son. Jesus will be the ruler but God will rule over all. **** I suppose another analogy would be to say that God is a king and Jesus a prince. Say a king allows his son to rule over some of his provinces, the prince would rule but the king is still the king. ***** Another analogy – A father loves he son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of his father and loves his father as much as his father loves him. The father wants to give him something so he builds him a billycart. The father created the billy cart because of the son, so he created it through him. If he had never had a son he may never have built the billycart. So, it is through the love he has for the son that he built it – therefore he built the billycart through his son. — Now lets change the names. —- God the Father loves his son with every fibre of his being, he is the perfect son who always does the will of God his Father and loves his Father as much as God the Father loves him. God the Father wants to give him something, so he creates the world as we know it. God the Father created the world because of the son, so he created it through the son. If he had never begotton a son he may never have created the world. So, it is through the love he has for his son that he created the world. He created the world through him and for him..
Timothy 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.I believe that everything was created through Jesus but what you call everything can be a bit hard to determine.
Colossians 1:16-19
“ For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; that in all things he may have the pre-eminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;Now lets look a bit more closely. “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven,…” Some translations have ‘in the heavens’. What do you define heaven as?
Strong’s – 3772 ouranov ouranos oo-ran-os’
perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; TDNT-5:497,736; n m
AV-heaven 268, air 10, sky 5, heavenly + 1537; 2841) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
1a) the universe, the world
1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
1c) the sidereal or starry heavens
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beingsIf by heaven and earth the bible is meaning everything ever created (angels and cherubim etc.) then I will agree. But could it be that we are referring more to the world as we know it – the earth and the heavens (universe, stars and planets, etc). If this is the case it lends itself to something else I have thoughts on, but maybe to elaborate now is not the time.
It is important to also note the meaning of ‘all things’
Strong’s – 3956 pav pas pas
including all the forms of declension; TDNT-5:886,795; adj
AV-all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 12431) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
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…” the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go after Christ? “then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts —some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile … (C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption)Verse 17 says, ‘He is before all things’. As you can see above, ALL THINGS does not necessarily mean ALL. So, through Jesus ALL THINGS were created and he was before ALL THINGS. That being the case, were ALL things created through Jesus, and was Jesus before the angels etc, or is it that he was only before the creation of the world/universe. This is a hard one and difficult to make a decision, but because I have other thoughts on this matter I could lean towards him being born after the angels. Which would mean that God created Angels etc, then he begot Jesus, then through Jesus he created the world for him.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all
the angels of God worship him.If the above scripture is referring to the time Jesus was born and the Angels worshipped him – the Angels were already created.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT EVERY PART OF CREATION WAS CREATED “THROUGH” THE SON? The world as we know it (earth, sky, universe, seas etc) definitely YES. The Angels and Cherubim etc, I can not be sure at this stage (more study needed before I would give a definite decision).
There you go, questions answered.
God Bless,
PLEASE NOTE THAT I NO LONGER HOLD TO THE BELIEF THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED. I HAVE NOT EDITED THE ABOVE WRITING AS THIS WOULD AFFECT THE FLOW OF REPLY POSTS.
You say that God and Jesus are two different persons? Seems like you believe in the Trinity suga. I myself do not believe in the Trinity, but I do believe in the deity of Jesus. I believe in The ONE GOD that Manifests himself redemptively. I believe in the many manifestations of our Lord for if He is omnipresent, how can we count him? If God never has to leave his throne how can he be three? He is much more for he was the High priest melchisidek, so then we must count him as 4. Wait, he manifested himself as a burning bush, no wait, also as a Whirlwind, a wrestler.If the holy Spirit is an actual seperate person, then God is more than Three, for He himself is a Spirit. Jesus existed before his Flesh, so then he was also a spirit, so it seems to me that the Holy Spirit is God in spiritual action, not a seperate person… It is the Spirit of The Lord for the Lord is a Spirit, when he acts it is in the Spirit.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2004,19:39) Quote (Guest @ Oct. 02 2004,12:28) actually, the Father did become flesh
ditty,Your words are a serious error.
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,By saying that the Father came in the flesh could only lead one to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
If Oneness Doctrine were true, then 1 John 4:2 would mean that we have to believe that the Father who came in the Flesh (Jesus as you say) then came in the flesh. So he has 2 layers of flesh according to that interpretation.
Please do not pass over this quickly.
You must believe that Jesus came in the flesh and your interpretation of who Jesus is, makes a mockery of 1 John 4:2 and renders it not only illogical, but makes that scripture out as a lie.
Other Oneness followers who have posted here have also said that Jesus is the Father in flesh. They said that when Jesus said “not my will but your will”, that was the flesh talking to the Eternal Spirit (the Father).
So by your words ditty, you demonstrate that you and the spirit in you is not of God.
So answer me this t8, what is it that makes Jesus the Son of God?Flesh or Spirit?
I can asure you that Jesus was not the Son before his humanity.Matter a fact it was his humanity that made him The Son of God.
If Jesus was not the Son until he was begotten in the Flesh, who is He? Jesus is Yahweh, he is self existent and eternal, which is what the name YAHWEH means. The Name yahoushua means YAHWEH SAVES and JESUS means HE WILL SAVE.
Who is Jesus?
Hi Ditty,
Being born of Mary made Jesus the The Son of Man, He was Son of God from before time in the beginning. Son of Man is a term He used very frequently about Himself showing his unity with us in our humanity.Melchisisdek was a “type” of Jesus -not Jesus Himself.
Jesus is not the Father. Ther Father is His God.
Jn 20 .17″ ..I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to My God and your God”
Quote (Guest @ Oct. 03 2004,07:15) So answer me this t8, what is it that makes Jesus the Son of God? Flesh or Spirit?
I can asure you that Jesus was not the Son before his humanity.Matter a fact it was his humanity that made him The Son of God.
If Jesus was not the Son until he was begotten in the Flesh, who is He? Jesus is Yahweh, he is self existent and eternal, which is what the name YAHWEH means. The Name yahoushua means YAHWEH SAVES and JESUS means HE WILL SAVE.
Who is Jesus?
Jesus was and is the Logos of God. He pre-existed as the Logos through whom God created the universe.Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Acts 3:15
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you beforethe world began.John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,Hi T8,
You have often said that if you were given a bible to read for the first time on a desert island would you come up with the trinity doctrine? No you wouldn't… you would realise that there was a great and terrible God who loves everyone enough to send His Son Jesus to die for us to save us from impending doom for those who ignore that message.Well anyone born into the kingdom should be like that. As scripture says we should accept the message like little children. We should be like a freshly ploughed paddock into which the new seed of the gospel is planted. Only that seed can grow to produce a crop useful to the gardener.
The plouging is repentance. Jesus said unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Simon the magician did not repent before he believed and was baptised and wanted to use the power of the Holy Spirit to his own advantage in Acts 8 .He was severely warned and told to reform and ask for the Lord's pardon.
None of us fully repent before we are saved and have to keep letting go of what we thought we knew if God is able to build anything useful on the true foundation laid. We all still want to figure it all out ourselves first and stay in control. But God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.
'Since we live by the Spirit let us follow the Spirit's lead”.[Gal 5.25]I agree Nick.
If we do not repent of our sins, then how can God forgive us?
Repentance is a necessary reaction to hearing the gospel and believing it. If we do not, then we make it clear that we prefer to sin than to serve God.
Jn 1.1
“In the beginning was the Word; the Word was in God's presence, and the Word was God. He was present to God in the beginning. Through Him all things came into being and apart from Him nothing came to be. Whatever came to be in Him ,found life ,life for the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, a darkness that did not overcome it”or
Prior to his birth Jesus existed as Spirit with his Father, his God; and he was God. Yes, He and his Father existed together before time began. He was the instrument of his Father's creation of everything with no exceptions. Whoever was reborn into Jesus came to share in that divine life and found purpose, understanding and salvation. That joyful gospel always continues to bring salvation in the kingdom of Satan despite his best efforts.
Amen.
The one who was with God in the beginning died for us, so that we can live unto God too. God then raised him from the dead, so that death was conquered and swallowed up in life.
Jesus calls us brethren and we will be like him. He is the son and we are sons.
God created all through him and God saved us through him too.
God's ways are so alien to us. But Jesus interceeds for us, so that he not only represents us to God, but he declares/reveals God to us as well.
He is the only mediator between God and man.
Jesus (Yahshua) is the Messiah, the son of the living God.
He is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High.
He is the Word of God and he is coming back for his own and to judge the world.
Are you (the reader) ready?
Hi Rambling Rose,
I suggest you are a bit confused about Heb 1.5-6 and what it says about Jesus
” To which of the Angels did God ever say 'You are my Son. Today I have begotten you' ……..And again when He leads His firstborn into the WORLD, He says 'Let all the angels of God worship him”Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son. If the archangels are other sons [Job 2] Jesus is the only one who was Begotten and that was before they were created. All the rest of those sons were created by Him.They were created before the Earth we know from Job 38.7
Jesus is the FIRSTBORN Son. We know that relates to before time as Psalm 2 confirms and it does not relate to His physical birth because he was the ONLY son born of the Holy Spirit and Mary and firstborn implies others.
In Hebrews 1.6 it says when he LEADS his firstborn INTO THE WORLD. That is 4000 odd years since even man was created so that has nothing to do with the begetting of Jesus before time.
So Jesus was begotten first as the only begotten Son and He created angels and is therefore greater than them. He was shown to the world when He was born of Mary.
Quote (t8 @ May 13 2002,15:52) John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.I dont know where people get this notion. It clearly doesnt say The Word is God.
The scriptures are very clear that Christ is from God, he is subject to God and God knows things that his Son does not.
The scriptures are also clear that Gods children are of Christ and Jesus calls us brothers, yet we are children to our Father.
The scriptures are also very clear that the Woman is of Man, and Man is of woman. of meaning born or from.
——————————————–
1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
——————————————–This may not be politically correct, but its truth and its the divine order.
——————————————–
1 Corinthians 3:22-23 (English-NIV)
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas {That is, Peter} or the world or life or death or the present or the future–all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God
——————————————–1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”,
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
——————————————–Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
——————————————–Is this your confession?
Also who came in the flesh, God or the Word?
In the beginning Was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word WAS God.This verse clearly states that the word is God. The word “Was” is used because we are speaking past tense, we are reading about the beginning. The word was with God because God speaks, and the word was God.
I do not hold to doctrines of men like the trinity doctrine. Yet it should not matter if I believe in the trinity doctrine or not, I believe on the name of Jesus, in doing so I have all three, if you can actually number God in such a way.
Hi,
I am starting to realise that the trinity teaching is a form of Modalism like Oneness.The Trinity teaching is that God is one in essence but three in Person. So if Jesus and The Father are one in essence then there can be no separation as they are the same in essence. Likewise if they are the same in essence there must be complete equality and no order of authority.There must also be the same power,knowledge and abilities.
Scripture refutes those things. The Father is greater than Jesus as Jesus said. The Father knows more as only He knows the Day of Jesus's return.The Father is more powerful as He begat Jesus and raised Him from the dead.The Father is in authority over Jesus and Jesus sought only to do the will of the Father.
Trinitarians are caught up in this confusion as in their posts they cannot seem separate the deity of the Father from that of Jesus and realise they are at different levels in every way.
Oneness and modalism are heresies.
True Nick,
It is like modalism. That is why they say that God came in the flesh. Modalism teaches the same thing. They differ with the number of personalities and agree on the substance.
Just a general message follows. Not pointed at anyone.
The Trinity teaches one substance and 3 personalities. But the nature of God is in Christ and can be in us too. In identity or personality there is only 1 true God, the Father. In other words the nature of God comes from God and God is an identity not a nature. He is the I Am. He exists. His nature comes from him and he shares it. So if Christ has divine nature, then he could be God, but scripture says that he is of God. So that still means he has divine nature. In other words he received that nature. He is the recipient of God's nature. He is not the source of it. Simply put he is the son and his source is the Father.
Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.To partake or have divine nature doesn't make you or me the Most High God. Just as Adam was the son of man and through him and Eve came mankind. We have inherited that nature and we are men/women. We have that nature, we are mankind. But I am not Adam am I? Just because I have flesh, doesn't mean that in identity I am the one whom God formed out of the ground and breathed into his nostrils to become a living soul. Rather I have received Adams nature by birth, not his identity. That is why I have a name and why Adam has a name. That is why Jesus/Yeshua has a name and his Father has a different but similar name.
So just as Adam is an idenity, God is an identity. We are unique in idenity, but can be one in nature. Just as Christ is in the Father, and the Father is in him, so we can be one and one with them. But we are who we are. As the saying goes: “I think therefore I am.”
Make no mistake about it. We will partake of divine nature and will become like Christ who has divine nature. But we will never be the Divine in identity will we? The Divine is YHWH and him alone. The Lord our God is one God. This is the great commandment. He alone is worthy to be called good. He alone is the Most High. He alone is the source of all good. Jesus his son is the recipient of all the goodness of God. Jesus is the expression of God. He is his image. We can share in that goodness through Christ alone. He is the way, the truth and the life.
Many do not understand the difference between nature and identity. Some say that from the substance/nature comes 3 identities. This is a very weird teaching and doesn't come from scripture. God is an identity. A personality. The I Am. He exists. He is not a nature with 3 minds. I hope you (the reader) can see how rediculous false teaching is.
It is the result of Greek Philosophy that held that all things were either created or non-created. So understanding the gospel through the eyes of Greek philosophy meant that God was un-created and we and the worlds were created. The problem was how did Christ fit into Greek Philosophy? Was he created or was he non-created. Hence the aposing sides of Athanasuis and Arius. (Although I am not too clear on what Arius really taught).
But scripture shows us that between non-created and created is Christ who was begotten. God has always been and creation was made though Christ. But Christ was begotten of God before creation. He wasn't made by created elements. Yet he also hasn't existed as another God for all eternity. He came from God, but before creation. He was and is the Logos, the expression, teh image. He was begotten from the Father alone. I don't think Greek philosophy could handle that truth.
But Pauls answer to the Greeks was as follows:
1 Corinthians 1:21-23
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;I suppose that those who embraced Greek thinking and used it to preach and teach from scripture, may have looked wise in the eyes of men. But the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men, just as the foolishness of the gospel is greater than the worldy-wise creeds of men.
We don't have to make the truth sound appealing or even scientific. It is the truth and that is good enough. The truth is before creation itself, so why does it have to fit in the context of our understanding of creation and time when it is beyond and before that. As it is written:
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.The Spirit of God will convict all men and will confirm the truth of the gospel. We need to build on the true foundation. All other foundations will crumble and all the works built on them will fall. Why waste your time with a false foundation.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah. Upon this rock Jesus built his Church. Do not labour in vain folks. Only in truth can we labour for the rewards of eternal life.
If you have to repent then do it. Humble yourself before God and his truth. Only in the truth do you have a refuge. No lie no matter how good it sounds, can protect you.
Be found in Christ that God may dwell in you.
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