The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:41)

To WorshippingJesus. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28) Your claim that Trinitarians fight “tooth and nail” against any thing that challenges Tradition is all backwards. Actually I didn't say specifically Trinitarians, but I have also found the same thing from others who follow after traditions. Trinitarians are not the only ones who follow mens tradition but I have found such people to fight for their traditions with a passion similar to a die hard soccer hooligans. Also see my previous post.

t8

Sounds like some of the Apostles that “Died” for there faith.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28)

Soon I will post 100 scriptures as proof that this God we serve the True God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Oh so your 100 scriptures will contradict the ones I quoted.

Well scripture if understood properly has no contradiction.

[david]

T8, so in your John 17:3 scripture post, are we allowed to comment? Is this the conversation between you two?
In my opinion John 17:3 disproves the trinity in three ways. As far as I can tell, John 17:3 is the end of it. It's done.

[Proclaimer]

I would give Is 1:18 the courtesy of posting next for his rebuttal and then open it up for all (including myself and Is 1:18 to comment, if they want.

Thanks david.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28) Soon I will post 100 scriptures as proof that this God we serve the True God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Oh so your 100 scriptures will contradict the ones I quoted. Well scripture if understood properly has no contradiction.

t8

No my scriptures will not contradict but confirm the “whole of scriptrue” and bring balance!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:44)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:41) To WorshippingJesus. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28) Your claim that Trinitarians fight “tooth and nail” against any thing that challenges Tradition is all backwards. Actually I didn't say specifically Trinitarians, but I have also found the same thing from others who follow after traditions. Trinitarians are not the only ones who follow mens tradition but I have found such people to fight for their traditions with a passion similar to a die hard soccer hooligans. Also see my previous post. t8 Sounds like some of the Apostles that “Died” for there faith.

There is a difference in laying your life down in love and truth and fighting for prides sake. Pride says I am right, respect for truth is different and reasonable.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:48)

I would give Is 1:18 the courtesy of posting next for his rebuttal and then open it up for all (including myself and Is 1:18 to comment, if they want. Thanks david.

Has the debate started? Where is it?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:49)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28) Soon I will post 100 scriptures as proof that this God we serve the True God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Oh so your 100 scriptures will contradict the ones I quoted. Well scripture if understood properly has no contradiction. t8 No my scriptures will not contradict but confirm the “whole of scriptrue” and bring balance!

I would like to see you do that.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 19 2007,03:51)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 18 2007,08:48) I would give Is 1:18 the courtesy of posting next for his rebuttal and then open it up for all (including myself and Is 1:18 to comment, if they want. Thanks david. Has the debate started? Where is it?

The discussion is called John 17:3.

Here is the link:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1263

[Is 1:18]

Never mind found it (you said you would post it in “Biblical Doctrine”). Oh John 17:3, how predictable. Give me a couple of days.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,03:28)

You see Luther believed Jesus the Word, is God! So I am curious still as to any heros or Fathers of your faith.

Martin Luther brought many things to light and for this I thank him greatly. He didn't (as would be expected) eliminate all lies and false teachings. He made a big contribution and from what I understand, the reformation wasn't designed to stop, but that men in following generations would restore or highlight more truth. We also know in the Church that God works through his body and not usually one man exclusively.

Today we see a whole bunch of denominations of which some are but a shadow of a man and now some of these denominations are seeking to go back to their mother.

But true reformation is in the hearts of people. When we love the truth even unto death, we will continue to be reformed and transformed into the image of Christ who is the image of God.

It must also be noted that Luther lived in some very dark times. His ideas were radical to most and many just thought he was plain wrong. But that is also how some of you see myself and others who do not follow your traditions.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 19 2007,03:54)

Never mind found it (you said you would post it in “Biblical Doctrine”). Oh John 17:3, how predictable. Give me a couple of days.

True that.

I will move it there as that is where it belongs.

Thanks.

[Proclaimer]

Here is the location:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1264

[david]

T8 and Is 1:18, before each of you goes on to try to prove what you are trying to prove, shouldn't we establish what it is in fact that each is trying to prove?

what I mean is, I really am still a little unclear which trinity belief Is 1:18 subscribes to. What does it mean to him. Ask 10 people and you'll get some very different answers. I've asked a few times for a consice clear definition.

[Proclaimer]

Well I guess that the subject spells that out.

I will be calling the post by the scripture and then the description will be the same. i.e., “Why it contradicts the Trinity Doctrine.”

I am not sure what Is 1:18 will do, but I hope he does something like John 1:1 “Why it teaches the Trinity Doctrine.”

If he starts a post called “Why T8 is a hedonistic ontological, synthetic, alien who worships UFOs, then I will just assume that he cannot provide the proof for the Trinity Doctrine.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 19 2007,03:54)

Never mind found it (you said you would post it in “Biblical Doctrine”). Oh John 17:3, how predictable. Give me a couple of days.

If it is really predictable then why didn't you predict it and prepare the rebuttal beforehand. Why do you need 2 days?

OK that's a joke.

[Is 1:18]

Fair call.

The key planks of my understanding of the nature and identity of YHWH are::

1. There is only one true God (YHWH) –  the only eternal, divine being, the Creator of the Heavens and Earth.

2. The Father of Yeshua is true God

3. Yeshua is true God

4. The Paraclete is true God

Some details:
I affirm that The Father, Son and Spirit are three distinct persons, although they are one in substance/essence (“hypostasis”), i.e. plurality of personage exist (in relationship) within ontological unity. The Logos, who existed in the “Morphe” of God and was God was sent to Earth to be the propitiation of all mankind’s sins, and deity took on the form (“morphe”) of humanity. But although the Logos “emptied” Himself He did not relinquish deity, but rather divested Himself of the attributes and prerogatives attendant with divinity (e.g. omnipotence). The Logos became the “Son of God” (Yeshua) when He was “made flesh”, but all the divested attributes/prerogatives were restored to Him after His ascension, although Yeshua remains “a man” forevermore. He and the Father then sent the Paraclete – a divine volitional personage with decision-making authority, a distinct person from the Father and Son – to indwell believers.

Please note, I do not hold to::

1) Tritheism – The Father, Son and Spirit are three different Gods.

2) Sabellianism (or modalism) – The Father, Son and Spirit are are three different modes or aspects of the one God.

Hope that clears it up for you David.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
There should be rules against using words that do not appear in scripture[or are of more than 15 letters!]. They are the tools of the theologians and not the bereans who compare verse with verse.

[Proclaimer]

Quote

The key planks of my understanding of the nature and identity of YHWH are:: 1. There is only one true God (YHWH) – the only eternal, divine being, the Creator of the Heavens and Earth. 2. The Father of Yeshua is true God 3. Yeshua is true God 4. The Paraclete is true God Some details: I affirm that The Father, Son and Spirit are three distinct persons, although they are one in substance/essence (“hypostasis”), i.e. plurality of personage exist (in relationship) within ontological unity. The Logos, who existed in the “Morphe” of God and was God was sent to Earth to be the propitiation of all mankind’s sins, and deity took on the form (“morphe”) of humanity. But although the Logos “emptied” Himself He did not relinquish deity, but rather divested Himself of the attributes and prerogatives attendant with divinity (e.g. omnipotence). The Logos became the “Son of God” (Yeshua) when He was “made flesh”, but all the divested attributes/prerogatives were restored to Him after His ascension, although Yeshua remains “a man” forevermore. He and the Father then sent the Paraclete – a divine volitional personage with decision-making authority, a distinct person from the Father and Son – to indwell believers. Please note, I do not hold to:: 1) Tritheism – The Father, Son and Spirit are three different Gods. 2) Sabellianism (or modalism) – The Father, Son and Spirit are are three different modes or aspects of the one God.

I would like to discuss this in the next council.

I would also like to propose that all who do not adhere to this ontological detail be excommunicated and that all writings that oppose this new creed be burned.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 18 2007,05:39)

Is wrote: Correct me if i'm wrong t8,  but as I see it you have acknowledged openly that the Father is the “Most High” God, the source of Jesus (via a supernatural and pre-incarnate begettal) who is properly described as “a god” (not “the” God). The Father alone is eternal. The “Comforter” is exclusively the Father's personal Spirit. YHWH is unipersonal, and neither Yeshua nor the Holy Spirit are YHWH, only the Father is. There exists many uncreated gods but the Father is the greatest of these. That's just a quick synopsis, not an exhaustive description. So please tell me if I have misprepresented any aspect of what you believe, set me straight now, because those precepts are what you will be defending in the debate.

t8, for the second time, I'm not going to be defending trinitarianism in the verses I will be positing for you to answer. I will be challenging your position – which I've outlined above.

For the third time, can you please confirm that I have accurately represented your theology (the parts relavent to this debate). If not please correct me.

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