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Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 16 2007,05:21) Bleh LOL… Humans are bad for labelling hehe 
Hugs
PhoenixI agree.
But I dont see any body on this sight stirring up a fuss over the labels, “trinity”, or “Trinitarians”.
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
Hi W,
That is the label Is 1.18 applied to his own beliefs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:41) Hi W,
If you have correctly figured out that God is not accurately described as a trinity then surely you would expose those aspects of the theory that are false to your way of thinking.The Comforter is the Spirit from God in Christ.
The Spirit is the spirit of God so never separate from God.
NHYou dont like me very much do you?
I am flattered! I wish there was some way you and I could meet in a ring somewhere with a pair of boxing gloves and let you take out your frustrations!
Hi w,
You apply an offensive arian label to us which doctrine we have we denied and have shown is anathema to our love of scripture yet you have continued to apply it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:41) The Spirit is the spirit of God so never separate from God.
Weren't you asserting yesterday that the Father's location is strictly “in Heaven” and His Spirit indwells us “on earth”?By that reasoning wouldn't they be separate?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:41) Hi W,
If you have correctly figured out that God is not accurately described as a trinity then surely you would expose those aspects of the theory that are false to your way of thinking.The Comforter is the Spirit from God in Christ.
The Spirit is the spirit of God so never separate from God.
NHYou dont like me very much do you?
I am flattered! I wish there was some way you and I could meet in a ring somewhere with a pair of boxing gloves and let you take out your frustrations!
Hi w,
If I did not love you and wish you to come to a deeper knowledge of Scriptural truth I would not have bothered.
So what of trinity then ?
What aspects are wrong?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
Hi W,
That is the label Is 1.18 applied to his own beliefs.
NoI doubt that Is 1:18 came to this sight saying “Hey I am a trinitarian, does anyone want to take a shot”?
I no I didnt anounce I was Trinitarian, but I was soon called one, based on my belief.
So what is good for the goose is…
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,05:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:41) The Spirit is the spirit of God so never separate from God.
Weren't you asserting yesterday that the Father's location is strictly “in Heaven” and His Spirit indwells us “on earth”?By that reasoning wouldn't they be separate?
Hi Is 1.18,
Never.
God reaches from heaven into his creation with His loving finger, the Spirit.Ps 139
“7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? “Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:45) Hi w,
You apply an offensive arian label to us which doctrine we have we denied and have shown is anathema to our love of scripture yet you have continued to apply it.
NHArianism and Trinitarianism was the big debate.
One believed in the deity of Christ the other didnt.
Now it is true that “Both” views have somewhat changed over the years but the debate is still over Jesus being God and just a man!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
Hi W,
That is the label Is 1.18 applied to his own beliefs.
NoI doubt that Is 1:18 came to this sight saying “Hey I am a trinitarian, does anyone want to take a shot”?
I no I didnt anounce I was Trinitarian, but I was soon called one, based on my belief.
So what is good for the goose is…
Hi W,
So now that you deny trinity would you like to be called an arian or henotheist or something else?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,05:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2007,05:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,04:58) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:29) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2007,04:06) Yes it will be hard to counter all the clear teachings about the Trinity in the Old and New Testament. Anyway it is worth a try.
And also bear in mind the proof texts I'm going to be submitting won't be in defence of trinitarianism, but rather aim to question the validity of the henotheistic position you have taken.So the title of the thread should properly be something akin to: “trinitarianism vs. henotheism – which is more scriptural?”
Hi Is 1.18,
Is it fair that you can label his beliefs then force him to defend that label?
NHWhy not isnt that what t8 is doing by the label Trinitarian!
Hi W,
That is the label Is 1.18 applied to his own beliefs.
NoI doubt that Is 1:18 came to this sight saying “Hey I am a trinitarian, does anyone want to take a shot”?
I no I didnt anounce I was Trinitarian, but I was soon called one, based on my belief.
So what is good for the goose is…
Hi W,
So now that you deny trinity would you like to be called an arian or henotheist or something else?
NHNo because that label dosnt fit me, but it does fit you!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2007,06:11) Hi w,
Which of the three?
something else?
NHMore accuratly “Arian or Henotheist”.
God the Holy Ghost dwells in you. Comparisons.
Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God , and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
With
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
With
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Compare
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every manseverally as he will.
With
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party.
Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 15 2007,08:43) Hi Is Yes that and also, what I see. In my point of view or perception
Jesus is lesser than God the Father and he said so himself.
Interesting, thanks for that Phoenix. The fact that the Father is greater than the Son isn't actually disputed by me or other trinitarians I’m aware of, it's actually affirmed. We agree, the Father is greater.The issue is, however, exactly how is He greater?, in what respect?
If you examine the application of the word “greater” (Gr. Meizon) by Gospel writers, it's apparent that it isn't used in an ontological sense (i.e. the nature of beings), but a positional one. I did a literary search of the Gospels for the word greater/greatest, discounting the “the Father is greater than I” verses. Here are the eight texts I found where the word “Meizon” is applied to a person or people, and is used in a comparative sense:-
Matthew 11:11
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (cf. Luke 7:28)Matthew 18:1-4
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4″Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Matthew 23:10-12
10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11″But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12″Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.Mark 9:33-35
33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” (cf. Luke 9:46f)Luke 22:24-27
24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.' 26″But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27″For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.John 8:53
“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.John 15:20
“Remember the word that I said to you, ' A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.What’s evident here is that not once is “Meizon” used to demonstrate a superior nature or a higher category of being. In every single instance it denotes a disparity in authority/position/rank. That appears to be way the word is used by the Gospel writers. And so, to me, it seems logical that Yeshua was not speaking of His inferior ontology relative to the Father when He said he was “Meizon” than Him, but rather His lower position. The Father did not empty Himself and take on flesh, the Logos did. The Logos did not send the Father, the Father sent the Logos. The Son is subservient to His Father but he is not a lesser being.
And bear in mind that the writer of Hebrews, speaking of the risen Lord, wrote this:-
Hebrews 1:3
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Gr. Hypostasis), and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Hypostasis – From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance. (Strong’s Concordance).
Here is what Vine's Dictionary of NT words records about Hebrews 1:3:
“… in Heb. 1:3, of Christ as “the very image” of God's “substance;” here the word has the meaning of the real nature of that to which reference is made in contrast to the outward manifestation (see the preceding clause); it speaks of the Divine essence of God existent and expressed in the revelation of His Son. The AV, “person” is an anachronism; the word was not so rendered till the 4th cent. Most of the earlier Eng. versions have “substance;” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
Now this is an unmistakably ontological statement, and what does the writer affirm? He affirms that the essence/substance of Yeshua is an “exact representation” of the Father’s. On what grounds could it be legitimately argued that the Son was lower in the “essence” of His being relative to the Father?
I don’t think it can.
Quote The Holy Spirit is the essence that God sends to us through Jesus Christ.
So the “Spirit” of a person is their “essence”. Is that how you understand it?Quote I think I mentioned in the Salvation thread that I dont believe God came down to be Jesus.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.Word was in the beginning, Word was God, Word became flesh….
Phoenix, can I ask you to please tell me how you interpret these verses from John’s prologue?
Quote God… is the One and Only God.
Amen to that. There is one true God – YHWH.Blessings
Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With (John the Baptist speaking of Jesus)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Remember the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 17 2007,03:57) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 15 2007,08:43) Hi Is Yes that and also, what I see. In my point of view or perception
Jesus is lesser than God the Father and he said so himself.
Interesting, thanks for that Phoenix. The fact that the Father is greater than the Son isn't actually disputed by me or other trinitarians I’m aware of, it's actually affirmed. We agree, the Father is greater.The issue is, however, exactly how is He greater?, in what respect?
If you examine the application of the word “greater” (Gr. Meizon) by Gospel writers, it's apparent that it isn't used in an ontological sense (i.e. the nature of beings), but a positional one. I did a literary search of the Gospels for the word greater/greatest, discounting the “the Father is greater than I” verses. Here are the eight texts I found where the word “Meizon” is applied to a person or people, and is used in a comparative sense:-
Matthew 11:11
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (cf. Luke 7:28)Matthew 18:1-4
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4″Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.Matthew 23:10-12
10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11″But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12″Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.Mark 9:33-35
33They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” (cf. Luke 9:46f)Luke 22:24-27
24And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.' 26″But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27″For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.John 8:53
“Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.John 15:20
“Remember the word that I said to you, ' A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.What’s evident here is that not once is “Meizon” used to demonstrate a superior nature or a higher category of being. In every single instance it denotes a disparity in authority/position/rank. That appears to be way the word is used by the Gospel writers. And so, to me, it seems logical that Yeshua was not speaking of His inferior ontology relative to the Father when He said he was “Meizon” than Him, but rather His lower position. The Father did not empty Himself and take on flesh, the Logos did. The Logos did not send the Father, the Father sent the Logos. The Son is subservient to His Father but he is not a lesser being.
And bear in mind that the writer of Hebrews, speaking of the risen Lord, wrote this:-
Hebrews 1:3
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Gr. Hypostasis), and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Hypostasis – From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance. (Strong’s Concordance).
Here is what Vine's Dictionary of NT words records about Hebrews 1:3:
“… in Heb. 1:3, of Christ as “the very image” of God's “substance;” here the word has the meaning of the real nature of that to which reference is made in contrast to the outward manifestation (see the preceding clause); it speaks of the Divine essence of God existent and expressed in the revelation of His Son. The AV, “person” is an anachronism; the word was not so rendered till the 4th cent. Most of the earlier Eng. versions have “substance;” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
Now this is an unmistakably ontological statement, and what does the writer affirm? He affirms that the essence/substance of Yeshua is an “exact representation” of the Father’s. On what grounds could it be legitimately argued that the Son was lower in the “essence” of His being relative to the Father?
I don’t think it can.
Quote The Holy Spirit is the essence that God sends to us through Jesus Christ.
So the “Spirit” of a person is their “essence”. Is that how you understand it?Quote I think I mentioned in the Salvation thread that I dont believe God came down to be Jesus.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.Word was in the beginning, Word was God, Word became flesh….
Phoenix, can I ask you to please tell me how you interpret these verses from John’s prologue?
Quote God… is the One and Only God.
Amen to that. There is one true God – YHWH.Blessings
Is 1:18Excellent as usual.
The wonderful truth of God's Word is so refreshing so pure and so true!
Quote Phoenix, can I ask you to please tell me how you interpret these verses from John’s prologue? I honestly cant because I havent delved deep enough into the Trinity debate. However, I am not truly convinced how accurate the bible really is. Considering I found a few contradicting verses (not related to the trinity) which then made me do a search on the Internet to find out if anyone else had found the contradicting verse and voila! I found a website that states all the contradicting verses in the New Testament alone!! you will see my thread in the biblical doctrine board.
Quote The wonderful truth of God's Word is so refreshing so pure and so true! WJ, you sound like someone with a big ego. Check out my NT Contradictions thread. You will find a website link to the contradictions of the bible which is considered God's Word.
Hugs
Phoenix
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