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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,22:31) Paul wasn't being equivocal, in 1 Cor 8:4-6 he was contrasting Yeshua and the Father with the “lords and gods” that the pagans believed in. That is why he designated them “so-called” gods. You see Corinth was saturated in paganism in those days t8, it was quite an issue for the church there. In Chapter 10 he goes on to say that the gentiles were in fact sacrificing to demons! (read 1 Cor 8:4 followed by 10:20) 
Oh, so Paul was incorrect then when he said there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ?Because it seems to me that you are trying to twist the meaning to say: One God the Father, Son, Spirit and one Lord Father, Jesus, Spirit.
If your meaning is correct then Paul made a mistake. Simple as that.
So the question for you Is 1:18, is did Paul make a mistake or you?
Paul's point was yes there indeed are “many lords and gods”……..TO PAGANS.
We know better. Most of us do.
t8, please just answer my question:
Quote Okay, just so I understand you correctly….you hold that there is only one uncreated God. Is-this-true?
If your theology is sound you should not be afraid to answer any question.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,03:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2007,03:10) Hi Is 1.18,
God is.
His unique monogenes son was begotten in the beginning and through him came all of creation.
He was loved by God and God sent his firstborn son into the world in the likeness of sinful flesh.
He has spoken for God, acted for God, lived and died for God.Heb 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rom 8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:1Jn 4
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Why do you never give me a direct answer to my questions?
Hi Is 1.18,
I love scripture.
I look forward to the day when we can truly dialogue.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2007,04:02) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,03:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2007,03:10) Hi Is 1.18,
God is.
His unique monogenes son was begotten in the beginning and through him came all of creation.
He was loved by God and God sent his firstborn son into the world in the likeness of sinful flesh.
He has spoken for God, acted for God, lived and died for God.Heb 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Rom 8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:1Jn 4
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Why do you never give me a direct answer to my questions?
Hi Is 1.18,
I love scripture.
I look forward to the day when we can truly dialogue.
ditto.Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2007,10:47) Someone who believes in the trinity: I wonder what would possess the religious leaders who lived in jesus time and wanted him dead to not accuse him of claiming to be God Almighty?
Why would they keep this fact back?
Was it their ace in the hole that they were going to drag out at the end?
No, that can't be, because they seemed pretty desparate, creating false witnesses, breaking laws, doing this under the cover of darkness.
hmmm. I remember when I got pulled over that time for speeding and when the officer found the dead body in my trunk, suddenly he didn't care as much about me speeding. hmmm. In fact, now that I think about it, I didn't get a speeding ticket at all, only 10 years in jail.
hmmmm.
Why wouldn't the pharisees have looked at the much bigger claim, the body in the trunk so to speak? Why would they gloss over that?It just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to question this whole trinity doctrine.
DavidHow are you?
Hey funny guy.
Maybe its because the term “God Almight” is found only 5 times in the all the Old Testament!
The New Testament hadnt been written yet, which the term is found only 6 times and all were in Revelation.
Maybe its because the Name of God to the Jews was “LORD”, “YHWH”.
And anyone considering themselves a Son of “YHWH” would be Blasphemous, since this term was never used till this time and they considered anyone making this claim being equal to God!
Lord “YHWH” is found 6,510 times in the Old Testament AV. Many of them were Prophetic of the Messiah Jesus.
And yet “Lord” (Kurios) is found 667 times in the NT almost all of them ascribed to Jesus (Yeshua which means “YHWH” is Salvation”).
I have always doubted the Arian doctrine!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,03:31) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 09 2007,02:52) No. I am quoting Paul, so he must be the equivocator.
Paul wasn't being equivocal, in 1 Cor 8:4-6 he was contrasting Yeshua and the Father with the “lords and gods” that the pagans believed in. That is why he designated them “so-called” gods. You see Corinth was saturated in paganism in those days t8, it was quite an issue for the church there. In Chapter 10 he goes on to say that the gentiles were in fact sacrificing to demons! (read 1 Cor 8:4 followed by 10:20)
Amen. Is 1:18Cor 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.Now lets look at the context…
Corinth was at this time a pagan city. Paganism and polytheism was the order of the day. But the Apostle Paul does an amazing thing in these verses. First he states in vrs 4…
“That there is none other God but one.” Somehow, those on this sight seem to always leave this one out!
Them in vrs 5 Paul speaks of “gods many and lords many”. Then emphatically declares “to US there is but one God”.
Then in vrs 6 without hesitation Paul glossed “God” with the Father, and “Lord” (Kurios) with Jesus Christ, adding in each case an explanatory phrase: “God” is the Father, “from whom are all things and we to him,” and the “Lord” is Jesus, “through whom are all things and we through him.”
If Paul was defending Unitarianism here against the polytheistic views of the Corinthians who believed in many gods and lords, he wouldn’t have mentioned Jesus as “Kurios” in the in the same breath, and ascribing a God like attribute to him, “through whom are all things and we through him.” .
Unless of course he knew and believed that Jesus the Word/God is Divinely and Uniqually ONE with the Father
Paul as a true Monothiest who called himself a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew that Jesus was God in the flesh.
Blessings
Quote David How are you?
Hey funny guy.
Maybe its because the term “God Almight” is found only 5 times in the all the Old Testament!
The New Testament hadnt been written yet, which the term is found only 6 times and all were in Revelation.
Maybe its because the Name of God to the Jews was “LORD”, “YHWH”.
And anyone considering themselves a Son of “YHWH” would be Blasphemous, since this term was never used till this time and they considered anyone making this claim being equal to God!
Lord “YHWH” is found 6,510 times in the Old Testament AV. Many of them were Prophetic of the Messiah Jesus.
And yet “Lord” (Kurios) is found 667 times in the NT almost all of them ascribed to Jesus (Yeshua which means “YHWH” is Salvation”).
Maybe I'm a little slow, but how does any of this answer my question as to why the ones who wanted Jesus dead and were willing to do anything to achieve this, somehow missed charging him with what Jesus was apparently claiming–that he was God Almighty.
Quote i don't understand why saying He is the Son of God is blasphemy? Hi “toteachachild.”
Believe this: If I or you went around saying that we were the son of God, and were doing so seriously, we would be accused of all sorts of things and blasphemy would be one of them.
Blasphemy is where we express disrespect for God or something sacred.
If I went around telling people that I was one of Jesus ancestors I would be disrespecting Jesus.
If Jesus went around telling people that he was God's very son, many would look at it as blaspemous, disrespectful of God.Quote i used to think the religious leaders hated Jesus b/c He claimed to be God, which was blasphemy. but now as i am reading the scriptures, i haven't read where Jesus actually said those words, (though some believed He implied being God.)
I would almost stake my life on the fact that if we gave the Bible to some tribe that has never heard of the trinity or God or Greek philosophy, they would not come up with the trinity. Not even close. It took people several hundred years to shape the trinity concept into something that was more pleasant to everyone–pagans and fake Christians alike. Everyone came out on top. The fake Christians who now were friends with the state and wanted power and authority wanted as many followers under their thumb as possible. If their followers worship in trinities or worship evergreens and lights or believe in a god called estarte (Easter) let's find a way to make it work.
It is remarkably clear how the fake Christians of the first few centuries twisted things once considered detestable into something now considered good. It is a disgrace and makes me nauseous when people try to defend it.
I also detest when people use big words, but can't explain it to a five year old.Quote i now understand that the religious leaders hated Jesus and wanted Him dead – b/c after that incident they said, “'If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.' And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, 'You know nothing at all, nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.' Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the childeren of God who were scattered abroad. Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death.” John 11:48-52 so, it would accomplish 2 things to continue hating Him and seek His death: 1) the Jews wouldn't believe in Jesus and the Romans would leave their nation alone, and 2) it was expedient for the nation for one man to die for the nation.
any help or insight would be appreciated. thanks.
I'm sorry, what was the question.
JOHN 11:48-52
“If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” But a certain one of them, Ca′ia·phas, who was high priest that year, said to them: “YOU do not know anything at all, and YOU do not reason out that it is to YOUR benefit for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed.” This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one.”They had no problem with one man dying if that man seemed he was going to destroy their nation. The religious leaders had a great deal of authority. But Jesus spoke the truth and showed those religious leaders for what they were, whitewashed graves, full of old mens' bones, and the blood of all the prophets. They didn't like Jesus exposing them. They wanted order and things to stay as they were. They wanted Jesus out of the picture.
I say this again. If Jesus even ever claimed once to be God, those that wanted him dead would have searched this out, they would have found out what the people were saying about him. And apparently, the people were not saying: He is God Almighty. Apparenlty, based on the actions of the pharisees, the people were saying, as Jesus taught, that he was God' son!Quote Quote (david @ Mar. 08 2007,10:47)
I'm starting to question this whole trinity doctrine.Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Due to popular demand, and at the same time, lack of interest, I'm reposting this post again:
Someone who believes in the trinity:
I wonder what would possess the religious leaders who lived in jesus time and wanted him dead to not accuse him of claiming to be God Almighty?
Why would they keep this fact back?
Was it their ace in the hole that they were going to drag out at the end?
No, that can't be, because they seemed pretty desparate, creating false witnesses, breaking laws, doing this under the cover of darkness.
hmmm. I remember when I got pulled over that time for speeding and when the officer found the dead body in my trunk, suddenly he didn't care as much about me speeding. hmmm. In fact, now that I think about it, I didn't get a speeding ticket at all, only 10 years in jail.
hmmmm.
Why wouldn't the pharisees have looked at the much bigger claim, the body in the trunk so to speak? Why would they gloss over that?It just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to question this whole trinity doctrine.
Well you should question Mr. “I believe in the trinity guy,” well you should.
Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,Obviously Paul had no notion of the Trinity.
Would a Trinitarian write such a thing to another Trinitarian?
I wouldn't think so.Hi t8,
Paul knew he was in Christ and Christ was in him so his prayer was to God. The trinity theory would have us separate ourselves from Christ and his Spirit within us so as to have two or more deities to pray to. Instead of our unity in God if offers to divide us from the family of God, who becomes as a mystical and distant triune god instead of a loving Father.I present this link (which defends the NWT against attacks) because probably a third of it has to do with trinitarian scriptures.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/pageindex.htm
Hi,
Truth is found in scripture.
The highest level of revelation is clear and repeated throughout the New and Old testaments.
Witnesses affirm the matter and some truths have hundreds of witnesses.Trinity is not taught anywhere in scripture at all.
It's adherents rely on inference and logic which are not godly tools .
It has no right to stand as a doctrine at all let alone as the most basic doctrine of traditional churches.But old traditional habits die hard.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 10 2007,06:11) Hi t8,
Paul knew he was in Christ and Christ was in him so his prayer was to God. The trinity theory would have us separate ourselves from Christ and his Spirit within us so as to have two or more deities to pray to. Instead of our unity in God if offers to divide us from the family of God, who becomes as a mystical and distant triune god instead of a loving Father.
NHWas Christ in him, or was God in him?
Hi W,
Do you not know?Is Christ in you?
Is God in you?
Is the Spirit in you?Are you inhabited by three beings or One Spirit?
Does God have a spirit?
Does the Spirit of God have a spirit?Quote Is this a JW website?
If you're speaking of this site, I could reference thousands of quotes proving it is decidedly anti-JW.iS 1:18, do you remember where we had been having this conversation a month or so ago? I don't think it was in this thread. But I'm not sure which one.
Quote Someone who believes in the trinity: I wonder what would possess the religious leaders who lived in jesus time and wanted him dead to not accuse him of claiming to be God Almighty?
Why would they keep this fact back?
Was it their ace in the hole that they were going to drag out at the end?
No, that can't be, because they seemed pretty desparate, creating false witnesses, breaking laws, doing this under the cover of darkness.
hmmm. I remember when I got pulled over that time for speeding and when the officer found the dead body in my trunk, suddenly he didn't care as much about me speeding. hmmm. In fact, now that I think about it, I didn't get a speeding ticket at all, only 10 years in jail.
hmmmm.
Why wouldn't the pharisees have looked at the much bigger claim, the body in the trunk so to speak? Why would they gloss over that?It just doesn't make sense. I'm starting to question this whole trinity doctrine.
Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2007,16:41) Quote Is this a JW website?
If you're speaking of this site, I could reference thousands of quotes proving it is decidedly anti-JW.
WorshippingJesus is a Trinitarian and therefore because we are not, he then feels the need to put us in a category that he can understand.WorshippingJesus is just saying that because he like many people need to put labels on things. When you don't promote a label carnal men have to put one on you anyway. To them everything is about labels and they are suspicious of all the ones that they don't adhere to.
The Pharisees did the same to Christ. They accused him of being a 'friend of sinners' and others called Christians a 'cult'. You see this kind of behaviour often with kids. Except adults love to do it too, particularly in the realm of faith, religion, sport, and nationality. Of course this in reality gives the enemy plenty to work with to wrought the works that Jesus came here to destroy.
Myself and others here to not adhere to a denomination and we are building up our faith from one revealed truth to another. But certain men try their best to distract you from such a quest by either drawing you to a denomination, men with a special revelations, or certain man-made doctrines. If they fail in this they will resort to accusing you of being a denomination anyway.
Why? Because it is hard to attack someone when they haven't got a name and a creed or statement of faith to pick on. Rome had the same problem with Christians in the first century. So they changed that by establishing creeds, traditions, and mandates.
I also think that the enemy is just angry that some of us a free from his Babylonian influence.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 11 2007,05:38) Quote (david @ Mar. 11 2007,16:41) Quote Is this a JW website?
If you're speaking of this site, I could reference thousands of quotes proving it is decidedly anti-JW.
WorshippingJesus is a Trinitarian and therefore because we are not, he then feels the need to put us in a category that he can understand.WorshippingJesus is just saying that because he like many people need to put labels on things. When you don't promote a label carnal men have to put one on you anyway.
To them everything is about labels and they are suspicious of all the ones that they don't adhere to.
The Pharisees did the same to Christ. They accused him of being a 'friend of sinners' and others called Christians a cult. That is all part of persecution. They oppose you and call you names.
You see this kind of behaviour with kids. Except adults love to do it to, particularly in the realm of religion, faith, sport, and nationality.
Of course this all gives the enemy plenty to work with to wrought the works that Jesus came here to destroy.
T8 writes:
“WorshippingJesus is a Trinitarian and therefore because we are not, he then feels the need to put us in a category that he can understand.
WorshippingJesus is just saying that because he like many people need to put labels on things. When you don't promote a label carnal men have to put one on you anyway.”
Can anyone see the irony (and hypocrasy) in this statement?
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