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Quote (Word of Life @ Mar. 05 2007,09:18) I have not read all this thread, as it's 598 pages and that would take me some time to go through. So if this question has come up, I apologize in advance. I am new here and this trinity doctrine which is out in the world today, just gets to me from time to time and then I start to question my own beliefs. I don't believe in the trinity, it's that simple. I have done endless studies on this trinity doctrine and I just don't see it or get it.
I know my God
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
I am a fairly new born Christian too, nearly two years ago, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and saviour. I spend endless times in my Bible each day. Jesus clearly taught and made a clear distinction between him and the Father several times through the Bible, even stating, that the Father sent him.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
My question is, by going to a building that follows the trinity doctrine, is this classed as idolatry?
Hi and welcome Word of Life,
All have sinned and must repent.
Ensure your entrance into salvation by obeying and following Jesus who submitted to baptism in water and the Holy Spirit.Once you have obeyed then you will begin to see the kingdom and the light from the scriptures will guide you till the Morning Star of Christ arises in your heart.
Buildings neither improve nor detract from our relationship with God in Christ. Paul and the apostles went to the synagogue for the reason of debating with the Jews and drawing them to Christ.Everything is “allowed” now but not all is good for us and our new father, God, allows us to go in and out of the gate to find pasture. God is a caring father who wants us to learn and we do so sometimes by our mistakes. We still sin without planning to, but we have a way back to safety. He makes all things work together for good.
Only the Spirit of Christ can reveal the detail of what God wants you to do and till you are settled in him other influences such as legalism, the leaven of the Pharisees, may try to impose harsh rules on you to deceive you and restrict your opportunities to serve the law of freedom.
Men love the sense of power religion gives but not all religion involves God. Such “rules” imposed by men on those in Christ also do not improve our relationship with God but can place barriers as our minds can be restricted when we are called in freedom to serve God.
Our God is not a trinity and if you have already been shown that then it is not good to join in false worship to such a trinity god. If attendance at a building causes you to be involved in false worship to another god then perhaps it is better not to attend but let God show you.
Quote (Word of Life @ Mar. 06 2007,04:18) My question is, by going to a building that follows the trinity doctrine, is this classed as idolatry?
Welcome Word of Life.If you went to a Mosque would that make you a Moslem?
Of course the answer is no.But if you pray to a Trinity and worship the Trinity, then yes.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.So worship the Father in spirit and truth. This is his will and desire.
Quote (Word of Life @ Mar. 05 2007,10:08) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 24 2007,10:10) And the scripture states: “For the wages of sin is death (this means separation from God and also physical death), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Jesus Christ our Lord”. Since all men have sinned, if there were no provision for a resurrection from the dead, then we would all be dead or separated from God forever because “the wages of sin is death” so that is what we have earned by violating God's Law, the Ten Commandments.
Jesus had to be conceived of the Holy Ghost in order for salvation to be a “gift” from God. Salvation is through faith in what God has done for us and not because any of our goodness. But Jesus had to be born a man so that he could overcome sin and death so that there could be a resurrection from the dead. If he had also sinned, then he would be dead also, but because he was raised from the dead, his sacrifice pays the penalty or judgment that was against every man.
Now that Jesus overcame sin and death, he is also our example of how we should live our lives in order for we also to over come sin. He did it with out sin, but we make mistakes along the way as we learn to obey his example. And because he lives to make intercession for us when we sin, when we fail and then repent, his blood washes away our sin and keeps us in right standing with God.
Also, because salvation is not of works, that is we did not earn our salvation through perfect obedience to God's word, it makes for humility because none of us can boast that we earned our salvation, and this is good.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God: not of works LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST”. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all one for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, behold I and the children which God hath given me. For- asmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself took of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. And deliver them through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted”. (Hebrews 2:9-18)
Jesus had to die in order that even the most wicked man on earth could have the opportunity to be saved, and this is good, but also, because he rose again from the dead, it means that every man will be accountable to God for the life that he has lived. Judgment day is coming for all men.
In that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, his body is God's own flesh and blood, and so, it is God's blood that washes away our sins.
I have already posted my understanding on whether or not Jesus pre-existed before he was born of the virgin Mary.
I hope that I have answered at least some of your questions.
God Bless
That was a wonderful post, you have explained it so well. Certainly made me see things differently.“In that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, his body is God's own flesh and blood, and so, it is God's blood that washes away our sins”.
Thank you so much, I never really saw it in that way. Not sure how I saw it, but my way way too complicated, to put down into words. This is so much easier to see and understand.
Hi WordofLife:Thanks of the compliment, and I am glad that I could help with whatever understanding of the scriptures that I have.
I worship with a congregation whose leadership adheres to the Trinity doctrine and some other doctrines that I understand differently, but I am not a member of the church, and I cannot be a member because by being a member, I would be saying that I agree with their doctrine.
I am a member of the body of Christ, and I don't have to join any organization. If the church does a good work, I will support the work.
I have discussed my differences with the pastors of the church that I am attending, and I have shown them that my salvation does not depend upon my accepting the “trinity doctrine”. I made it clear to them that the following scriptures indicate nothing about the trinity: John 3:16-18, Romans 8:1-4, 10:9-10. They have told me that I was welcome in there, and so, I will set the example for them to follow hoping that some day they will be corrected.
I agree with what t8 has written regarding your question about idolatry.
God Bless
Greetings t8,
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2007,21:13) I give you the following explanation regarding this verse. Isaiah 9:6
or to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'Here we can see that Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:
1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' which is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that show us that The Father is God and Jesus his image.
In the very next chapter of Isaiah, YHWH ascribes the title “el gibbor” to Himself:Isaiah 10:20-21
20Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.In this passage, does this appellative emphasise something less than absolute deity to you? Does it denote a lesser category of deity than “almighty” might? Hardly.
And one more thing t8, considering the context of both passages, can you tell me what might indicate a differentiation in ontology between the subject in Isa 9:6 and that in 10:21?
Quote It must be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty God indicates that there are Gods of a lesser position).
Is there more than one divine being in existence? How many uncreated gods do you suppose there is t8?Monotheistic christians affirm the existence of One divine being – YHWH.
Quote It is very important to read scriptures not only in context but also in agreement with other scriptures, especially since it is possible to interpret some scripture in more than one way, because of the wide varying uses and meanings of some words.
Isa 9:6 aligns perfectly with explicit statements made in John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 etc etc…..Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
God has a son.
He said so.
He calls his son God too.
And He calls men and angels gods too.
God can say these things and they do not define him as all them combined in one God with them does it?Quote HI Isaiah 1:18
I'm wondering what you think of what I wrote on page 597, the last page. I would really like to continue on that conversation.Hi Is 1.18,
Was the word who was with God God?
That makes two uncreated Gods with the unique son, the Word, begotten as an image from the Father.
But he is not our God, but our Lord, as FOR US there is One God, the Father.[1Cor 8]Quote Was the word who was with God God?
That makes two uncreated Gods with the unique son, the Word, begotten as an image from the Father.
You just defined bitheism.Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2007,08:07) Quote HI Isaiah 1:18
I'm wondering what you think of what I wrote on page 597, the last page. I would really like to continue on that conversation.
Hi Dave,
As I said in the last post we exchanged on the subject I didn't really have anything more to add, and I don't feel inclined to endlessly repeat myself. And forgive me if I can't find enthusiam to address material pasted straight from Watchtower literature….Fair enough. You have nothing to add. You have no enthusiasm to address this material.
I do find this interesting though. When i realized it, it quite shocked me.
Jesus said: “do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”
Is 1:18, I can't actually find where we were even discussing this. All Ifound was this:
“Hello David,
You might miss the hebraic nuances in a lot of what Yahshua said about Himself in his exchanges with the Jews, but they did not. Also, it's just not feasible to assert that the pharisees (the religious professionals of their day) would compromise their own safety by illegitimately stoning someone. Their laws for executions were quite clear-cut and making a lunatic statement that fell completely outside of their conventional theological boundaries, like claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH, was not a stonable offense as far as i'm aware…..–Isiah 1:18, trinity thread, somewhere before page 540?In their attempt to do anything to have Jesus killed, they did not follow the laws at all. They broke numerous laws.
As far as I can tell, there is only one REASONABLE explanation for them not charging him with this much greater charge:
JESUS NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM. HIS DISCIPLES NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM. THE PHARISEES NEVER HEARD ANYONE EVER MAKE THAT CLAIM.
Nothing else explains this fact. Nothing.
Again, I think I have just disproven the trinity.
We are here arguing over what people back then believed based on what they said. But here we have a very clear indication of what they believed based on the actions of people who WOULD IN FACT do anything to have Jesus killed, including breaking the law.
david
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 06 2007,08:13) Quote Was the word who was with God God?
That makes two uncreated Gods with the unique son, the Word, begotten as an image from the Father.
You just defined bitheism.
Hi Is 1.18,
I am not ashamed of what scripture says nor do I try to filter it through the theological eyes of men. Polytheists worship several deities but for us there is only One who is our God, the God of Lord Jesus.Nick, is it just me? Doesn't anyone see it as extraordinarily odd that the people who wanted Jesus dead, wanted him gone, and were willing to break many laws to do it, didn't make the charge that Jesus was claiming to be God Almighty himself?
Why did they only charge him with claiming to be the son of God?
They were there. They would have sought out anyone who had any reason to believe that Jesus made such a charge. They weren't against using false witnesses. They could have even made up such a charge–had that thought ever entered there mind. It did not, apparently.
Case closed. This trial has ended. It was tried thousands of years ago by men who wanted Jesus dead. It wasn't a fair trial. But it did prove something–that those who had the most reason to do away with him did not believe that jesus was claiming to be God Almighty.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 07 2007,03:13) Quote Was the word who was with God God?
That makes two uncreated Gods with the unique son, the Word, begotten as an image from the Father.
You just defined bitheism.
The predecessor to tritheism.Hi david.
No it isn't just you david.
I also made the same case a while back.
People were looking for false evidence to condemn Christ, yet why resort to false evidence if Christ claimed to be YHWH. Such a claim would have been good enough to get the death penalty.
Matthew 26:59
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.But in the end Jesus was condemned because he said he was the son of God and the messiah.
Matthew 26:63-65
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.“64 “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
So isn't it strange how some come to this board and condemn myself and others for saying the same thing.
Also notice how one of the above verses says:
“In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One”. Yet when myself and others say the same thing i.e., that Christ is not the Almighty, but is at his right hand, we are condemned by Trinitarians for implying as much.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2007,18:02) Hi and welcome Word of Life,
All have sinned and must repent.
Ensure your entrance into salvation by obeying and following Jesus who submitted to baptism in water and the Holy Spirit.Once you have obeyed then you will begin to see the kingdom and the light from the scriptures will guide you till the Morning Star of Christ arises in your heart.
Buildings neither improve nor detract from our relationship with God in Christ. Paul and the apostles went to the synagogue for the reason of debating with the Jews and drawing them to Christ.Everything is “allowed” now but not all is good for us and our new father, God, allows us to go in and out of the gate to find pasture. God is a caring father who wants us to learn and we do so sometimes by our mistakes. We still sin without planning to, but we have a way back to safety. He makes all things work together for good.
Only the Spirit of Christ can reveal the detail of what God wants you to do and till you are settled in him other influences such as legalism, the leaven of the Pharisees, may try to impose harsh rules on you to deceive you and restrict your opportunities to serve the law of freedom.
Men love the sense of power religion gives but not all religion involves God. Such “rules” imposed by men on those in Christ also do not improve our relationship with God but can place barriers as our minds can be restricted when we are called in freedom to serve God.
Our God is not a trinity and if you have already been shown that then it is not good to join in false worship to such a trinity god. If attendance at a building causes you to be involved in false worship to another god then perhaps it is better not to attend but let God show you.
Hello Nick,
Thank you for your response and reply to my post. I would just like to point out, that I have not been baptized in water, but I fully believe in my heart and I just know that I have been baptized in spirit by Jesus and have received the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is another issue with me, because I have been taught that it is not necessary and not required.
I have received the Holy Spirit, so what is the water baptism for? Maybe someone can explain this to me as I am a bit confused with this one too. When I confessed Rom 10:9, I felt as if something had hit me, within a few days, I was speaking in tongues, in small amounts as it became a shock to me at first, but during the last 10 or so months more fluently and I speak in tongues on a daily basis, in my prayer time and when I just generally chat to our Father.
I did stop speaking in tongues recently, for a short period of time, because I was told by someone whom goes to a church environment that witches speak tongues, this concerned, so I stopped. But after a few days, I took this to our Father and spoke to Him about it and parts of these scriptures came to mind.
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?I know our God is not a trinity, it’s so embedded in my heart, I just cannot change it. I have asked our Father on several occasions, if I have got this wrong, to please show me, but too date He hasn’t shown me otherwise. I do not feel comfortable when sitting in a church environment that’s supports the trinity. When they sings songs about the trinity, it makes me very angry and I get upset. I do go occasionally to a church, say about once a month or once every 6 weeks, but I am not happy in there. I get so much pressure sometimes from people, like my mum and other family members, they just don’t understand the importance of it. My husband goes to church every week and a cell group, but he does not see the importance of this, how idolatry it is. You have confirmed what I know in my heart, which God has shown me. It’s just very hard to take in, because people don’t understand the importance of it. When one reads the Bible, you can clearly see where it’s gone wrong in life. People have completely disobeyed God. God does not like us to disobey Him, He wants obedience from all us. This has been said by Him, all throughout the Bible.
Of course I feel extremely lonely at times, because I do so want to be in fellowship with other people, but I can’t associate myself with others that follow the trinity.
Thanks for welcomes.
I will be back later, to answer other posts.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 06 2007,07:53) Greetings t8, Quote (t8 @ Mar. 04 2007,21:13) I give you the following explanation regarding this verse. Isaiah 9:6
or to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'Here we can see that Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:
1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' which is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that show us that The Father is God and Jesus his image.
In the very next chapter of Isaiah, YHWH ascribes the title “el gibbor” to Himself:Isaiah 10:20-21
20Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. 21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.In this passage, does this appellative emphasise something less than absolute deity to you? Does it denote a lesser category of deity than “almighty” might? Hardly.
And one more thing t8, considering the context of both passages, can you tell me what might indicate a differentiation in ontology between the subject in Isa 9:6 and that in 10:21?
Quote It must be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty God indicates that there are Gods of a lesser position).
Is there more than one divine being in existence? How many uncreated gods do you suppose there is t8?Monotheistic christians affirm the existence of One divine being – YHWH.
Quote It is very important to read scriptures not only in context but also in agreement with other scriptures, especially since it is possible to interpret some scripture in more than one way, because of the wide varying uses and meanings of some words.
Isa 9:6 aligns perfectly with explicit statements made in John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Hebrews 1:10, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 etc etc…..Blessings
Is 1:18Amen!
I have also brought this up, but they continue to teach it and then have the nerve to accuse Trinitarians of teaching falsitys!
Hope the little one is doing fine!
Blessings
Hi WOL,
Don't believe lying men but listen to those anointed by God.
We follow Jesus who was baptised in water and the Spirit.
And he said we must be reborn of water and the Spirit.
Peter saw God baptise Cornelius and his friends in the Spirit.Acts 10
” 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
What did the eunuch ask Philip?
Hi Is 1.18,
You may convince yourself by comparing similar scriptures that Jesus is also the Father of Jesus but you are no closer to proving God is a trinity unless you can also show BY THE SAME PRINCIPLES that the same things exactly are said about the Spirit of God.
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