The Trinity Doctrine

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2007,23:19)

Hi m42, Try Ecc 12. Pleased to entertain. BTW while we are off the subject it is hard to reconcile the fact that you have a certain knowledge to share and you like to be taken seriously as a teacher, but then you bristle when asked to explain things and treat others with undisguised contempt??

Well Nick, My apologies I wish you had put a reference with your post. I did not remember that particular scripture. It is very germain to the subject I was discussing. Perhaps had you quoted the part “the Spirit will return to God who gave it” I would have caught it.
Nevertheless, you do have my apology, such as it is.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2007,20:27)

Hi m42, We are given maybe 70 or 80 years of God's mercy as an opportunity to find the need for and then find the fountain of the waters of life before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.

Excelent reminder. thanks for the tip.

Ecc12
 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

This clearly shows that the breath (spirit) returns from which it came. God is the source of our breath/life. He gives it and when we die it returns back to him.

[Proclaimer]

This is a Trinity discussion.

Remember that most who come here do so because they think it is about the Trinity.
It is necessary to go off the subject sometimes to build a case, as long as it is for the subject of the discussion.

But changing the subject altogether is not a good idea.

Imagine if you went to Google and typed in “Trinity” and ended up with a site about Polar bears.

[music4two]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2007,03:24)

This is a Trinity discussion. Remember that most who come here do so because they think it is about the Trinity. It is necessary to go off the subject sometimes to build a case, as long as it is for the subject of the discussion. But changing the subject altogether is not a good idea. Imagine if you went to Google and typed in “Trinity” and ended up with a site about Polar bears.

Except for a couple of personal moments betwen Nick and I the discussion has been on the trinity.

[Proclaimer]

Fair enough music4two.

[NickHassan]

Hi bb,
You say
“What God did next is awesome. He died for all of us. He forgave all our sins.”
Ummm God cannot die.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
It did not come from the teachings of the bible but the trinity theory is a strongly addictive doctrine.

[music4two]

Many times I have spoken on functionality of teaching. Perhaps it would be helpfull to understand the functional aspect of God and what he has created.

God does not have teachings or works that are dysfunctional. All of the things He does works toward helping His plan come about. Seeing functionality in scripture greatly enriches the understanding of verse. God veiws everything in His creation, including man, on the basis of functionality. Even relationship with Him is part of the function of man. An example is found in Genesis 1.

Genesis chapter 1.
The word “Good” (tov , Heb) would be better translated as functional. The opposite of this word is “ra”. these two words are used in the knowledge of good (tov) and evil (ra) In otherwords the knowledge of function and disfunction. God, His creation, His teachings, and His children should be functional. All teachings that prepose to help us, should function within God’s plan for His creation.

When God created the Earth and the beasts, He said it was functional.

 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. (functional)

After God created man He said it was very good.
the word “very” in this verse “meod” which means abundantly.
 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.(abundantly functional) And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God does make a point that although His creation functions without man, it functions more abundantly with the addition of man.

As to the fall of man, it is clear that partaking of the tree of knowledge of Good (function) and evil (dysfunction) made man dysfunctional.
Gen 2
 9Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good (function)and evil. (dysfunction)

 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good (function) and evil (dysfunction)you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Gen 3
 5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good (function)and evil.” (dysfunction)

Before the fall, man did not know dysfunction. He operated within a world that functioned perfectly as he did. It is also interesting to note that God set consequinces for man’s dysfunction. Now the Earth was cursed and man no longer could live in a functional world.

These type of understandings open up many scriptures.

For instance the story of Joseph. After being sold into slavery and then his brothers coming to Egypt for help he explains what happened.

Gen 50
 20″As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good (function) in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Do you see the functionality in what happened to Joseph?

When mosses sent spies into Cannan, he sent them to se if the land ws functional or dysfunctional. As is common in hebrew writing things are said twice to bring clarity.Verse 19 Moses asks if the land is functional or dysfunctional. Verse 20 clarifies that question. Is tha land lean or fat? Is the land producing as functional land should? Are there trees or not. (Remember they have been wandering the desert for a generation. Having trees would be a sign of the lands functionality unlike the desert.) Seek to get some fruit of the land to ascertain it’s functionality.

Numbers 13
 19″How is the land in which they live, is it good(functional) or bad (dysfunctional)? And how are the cities in which they live, are they like open camps or with fortifications?

 20″How is the land, is it fat or lean? Are there trees in it or not? Make an effort then to get some of the fruit of the land.” Now the time was the time of the first ripe grapes.

David makes a functional deal with Abner. We might have said, “That works!”

2 Samuel 3

 12Then Abner sent messengers to David in his place, saying, “Whose is the land? Make your covenant with me, and behold, my hand shall be with you to bring all Israel over to you.”

 13He said, “Good! (functional) I will make a covenant with you, but I demand one thing of you, namely, you shall not see my face unless you first bring Michal, Saul's daughter, when you come to see me.”

Ezra seeking Livites for the priesthood says this;
Ezra 8:18

 18According to the good (functional) hand of our God upon us they brought us a man of insight of the sons of Mahli, the son of Levi, the son of Israel, namely Sherebiah, and his sons and brothers, 18 men;

What God does is always functional. It works and produces something.

Notice in the following verses the action that is portrayed. The word good in these verses is speaking of God’s functionality.
Psalms 119
    37Turn away my eyes from looking at vanity,
         And revive me in Your ways.
    38Establish Your word to Your servant,
         As that which produces reverence for You.
    39Turn away my reproach which I dread,
         For Your ordinances are good. (functional)
    40Behold, I long for Your precepts;
         Revive me through Your righteousness.

Psalms 118
   1Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good;(functional)
         For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Proverbs 12
    1Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
         But he who hates reproof is stupid.
    2A good (functional)
man will obtain favor from the LORD,
         But He will condemn a man who devises evil.

Proverbs 28
   21To show partiality is not good, (functional)
         Because for a piece of bread a man will transgress.

Ecc 2
24There is nothing better for a man than to eat and drink and tell himself that his labor is good (functional) This also I have seen that it is from the hand of God.

 25For who can eat and who can have enjoyment without Him?

 26For to a person who is good (functional) in His sight He has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, while to the sinner He has given the task of gathering and collecting so that he may give to one who is good (functional) in God's sight This too is vanity and striving after wind.

Though most of the New Testament was written in Greek. It was written by Hebrews and with Hebrew concepts. The Greek words translated “good” have much the same meaning.

1 Timothy 4:6
If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good (functional) minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good (functional) teaching that you have followed.

Titus 2:7
In everything set them an example by doing what is good. (functional) In your teaching show integrity, seriousness

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good (functional) for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.

Matthew 13:23
“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good (functional) soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

Matthew 13:37
And He said, “The one who sows the good (functional) seed is the Son of Man

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? (functional) There is only One who is good; (functional) but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 8:15
“But the seed in the good (functional) soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good (functional) heart, and hold it
fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Ephesians 4:28
He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, (Functional) so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good (functional) The one who does what is good (functional) is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

Titus 2:3
Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, (functional)

Hebrews 13:9
Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good (functional) for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

Titus 3:14
Our people must also learn to engage in good (functional) deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 7:26
I think then that this is good (functional) in view of the present distress, that it is good (functional) for a man to remain as he is.

1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good (functional) news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you,

1 Timothy 6:18
Instruct them to do good,(what is functional) to be rich in good (functional) works, to be generous and ready to share,

Titus 3:8
This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good (functional) deeds. These things are good (functional) and profitable for men.

[NickHassan]

Hi M42
Matt 19
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Is Christ dysfunctional?

This functions as the trinity thread and we should try to keep it so.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,18:35)

Hi M42 Matt 19 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Is Christ dysfunctional? This functions as the trinity thread and we should try to keep it so.

I thonk your question would be answeres with a better translation.
Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? (functional) There is only One who is good; (functional) but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
(NASB)

the Greek confirmes this translation.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,

PLEASE CONTINUE ANY CONVERSATION IN THE APPROPRIATE THREAD

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,18:35)

This functions as the trinity thread and we should try to keep it so.

this thread is about doctrine. Without a good understanding of the functionality of God's creation and nature, all the forums in the world are simply formats for philosophy.
Without an understanding or testing of the functionality of doctrine we are all spinning our wheels. We become head knowledge christians.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
This thread is about trinity.
You must abide by forum rules and not constantly transgress them.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,19:29)

Hi m42, This thread is about trinity. You must abide by forum rules and not constantly transgress them.

this thread is about the Trinity. Is the question of the functionality of the Trinity as a working teaching allowed?

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,19:29)

Hi m42, This thread is about trinity. You must abide by forum rules and not constantly transgress them.

To ascertain the functionality of the Trinity, one must first establish that God created this world and His people to function. We must also understand that He works, teaches, judges and evaluates on the basis of functionality.

[NickHassan]

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 22 2007,19:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,19:29) Hi m42, This thread is about trinity. You must abide by forum rules and not constantly transgress them. this thread is about the Trinity. Is the question of the functionality of the Trinity as a working teaching allowed?

Hi m42,
Any aspect of trinity should be explored to help men back onto solid ground.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,20:00)

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 22 2007,19:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2007,19:29) Hi m42, This thread is about trinity. You must abide by forum rules and not constantly transgress them. this thread is about the Trinity. Is the question of the functionality of the Trinity as a working teaching allowed? Hi m42, Any aspect of trinity should be explored to help men back onto solid ground.

I am trying to establish the importance of functionality to God. My hope is by doing so others may see that the doctrine of the trinity must be functional to be of God. It must perform some action that promotes or helps the plan of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
It is utterly dysfunctional.
It destroys the possibility of a family relationship for us with our God in the way the Son enjoys.

[david]

Jesus said: “do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”

I had been discussing this scripture with Is 1:18.

He stated:
Hello David,
You might miss the hebraic nuances in a lot of what Yahshua said about Himself in his exchanges with the Jews, but they did not. Also, it's just not feasible to assert that the pharisees (the religious professionals of their day) would compromise their own safety by illegitimately stoning someone. Their laws for executions were quite clear-cut and making a lunatic statement that fell completely outside of their conventional theological boundaries, like claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH, was not a stonable offense as far as i'm aware…..–Isiah 1:18, trinity thread, somewhere before page 540?

Is 1:18 is completely absolutely without question wrong on this. In their attempt to do anything to have Jesus killed, they did not follow the laws at all. They broke numerous laws. Isiah 1:18 siad that claiming to be Yahweh “was not a stonable offence as far as I'm aware.” But is claiming to be God's Son a stonable offense? Which scripture says: “Anyone claiming to be God's son shall be stoned”? None that I am aware of.
So what is the difference whehter they charged him with being God's son, or being God?
The difference is clear:
Claiming to be God Almighty is a much greater charge.
The other difference is that they did not make that charge.

Is it because these powerful ones were frightened of accidentally stoning someone that didn't deserve it? This is insane. And laughable.

As far as I can tell, there is only one REASONABLE explanation for this:

JESUS NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM. HIS DISCIPLES NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM. THE PHARISEES NEVER HEARD ANYONE EVER MAKE THAT CLAIM.

Nothing else explains this fact. Nothing.

Again, I think I have just disproven the trinity.

We are here arguing over what people back then believed based on what they said. But here we have a very clear indication of what they believed based on the actions of people who WOULD IN FACT do anything to have Jesus killed, including breaking the law.

david

[942767]

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 19 2007,16:19)

hello and thank you to all who recently discussed the pre-existence of Christ.  i am trying to align my view of God with the scriptures, so i believe this trinity thread is still the appropriate place to post my  questions regarding the nature of Christ.  funny that i should ask men in an effort to avoid the doctrine of men… *Why was Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit?  In other words, if Jesus were only fully man, then why did the Savior have to be conceived of the Divine?  Why was he referred to as the “holy offspring” that shall be called “the Son of God”?   *If Jesus were only fully man, why be born of a virgin?  What would be the purpose? *If Jesus is conceived of Spirit and born of human what exactly does that make Him?  No scripture reads, “…fully God & fully man…” though the best I can come up with is “Son of God” and “Son of Man.”  In my simple mind, His conception actually makes Jesus “half God & half man” though I’ve found no scripture to say that either.   * If Jesus did have deity, does that make Him God or part of some Godhead?  If so, how can God send Himself to earth?  Or how can a part of a Godhead die on the cross?   *If Jesus does have deity and isn’t God or part of a Godhead, does that make Him another god?   *Did Jesus only receive the fullness of God upon receiving the Spirit of God at His baptism?  If so, then how was He able to remain sinless and holy from birth to age 30?  Did He only reveal the Father after His baptism?   *If Jesus was fully God & fully man while on this earth then how can He truly identify with us in our humanity?  How is Jesus to be our example if He were not only fully man?   *No other human had ever been conceived of Divinity, so how can we grasp this concept?  Why did it seem so easy for the apostles?  They were looking for the Messiah and knew He would be the Son of God.  What does that relationship mean?       *Why was Jesus ultimately crucified?  What was His sin, His guilt?  Was it blasphemy?  If so, why does His admission of being the Christ, the Son of God amount to blasphemy?  Were not the Jews looking for the Messiah to come also knowing as the disciples did that He would be the Son of God?

Hi toteachachild:

The scripture states that all men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)

And the scripture states: “For the wages of sin is death (this means separation from God and also physical death), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Jesus Christ our Lord”.

Since all men have sinned, if there were no provision for a resurrection from the dead, then we would all be dead or separated from God forever because “the wages of sin is death” so that is what we have earned by violating God's Law, the Ten Commandments.

Jesus had to be conceived of the Holy Ghost in order for salvation to be a “gift” from God.  Salvation is through faith in what God has done for us and not because any of our goodness.  But Jesus had to be born a man so that he could overcome sin and death so that there could be a resurrection from the dead.  If he had also sinned, then he would be dead also, but because he was raised from the dead, his sacrifice pays the penalty or judgment that was against every man.

Now that Jesus overcame sin and death, he is also our example of how we should live our lives in order for we also to over come sin.  He did it with out sin, but we make mistakes along the way as we learn to obey his example.  And because he lives to make intercession for us when we sin, when we fail and then repent, his blood washes away our sin and keeps us in right standing with God.

Also, because salvation is not of works, that is we did not earn our salvation through perfect obedience to God's word, it makes for humility because none of us can boast that we earned our salvation, and this is good.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God: not of works LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST”.  (Ephesians 2:8-9)

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all one for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren.  Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.   And again, I will put my trust in him.  And again, behold I and the children which God hath given me.  For- asmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself took of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.  And deliver them through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted”.  (Hebrews 2:9-18)

Jesus had to die in order that even the most wicked man on earth could have the opportunity to be saved, and this is good, but also, because he rose again from the dead, it means that every man will be accountable to God for the life that he has lived.  Judgment day is coming for all men.

In that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, his body is God's own flesh and blood, and so, it is God's blood that washes away our sins.  

I have already posted my understanding on whether or not Jesus pre-existed before he was born of the virgin Mary.

I hope that I have answered at least some of your questions.

God Bless

[Author]

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