The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi,
trinity started as a binity [Father-Son] and later the Spirit of God was added.

It is interesting that most adherents insist on the current state of the theory and will brook no further changes. But since it all came from man anything is possible.

[music4two]

Is 1:18

Allow me to expand on my post to you.
Look at these verses from a function standpoint. Hebrew culture looked at things from a functional point of view.
When ask to describe a pencil, they would say I write with it. We of western cultures would say it is yellow and 12 inches long. Hebrews saw the world in functional and relational points of view.

When moses saw the burning bush he did not relate to it as a simple bush on fire. Because God spoke from the bush Moses related to the bush by bowing down and calling it God. To moses from a Hebrew standpoint the burning bush was functioning as God.

When the high Priest saw the Shakina (sp) Glory in the Holy of Holys, they knew that God was in His temple. Was this light really God? No, but it was a form of God and functioned as God in that it communicated God presence signifying forgivness to the nation of Israel.

In Psalm 82 God tells the nation of Israel that they should be Gods in the way they treat their fellow men. He calls them sons of God and that they should function as Gods or be in a form of God in their actions.

In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse and applies it to the pharasees that they should be functioning or in the form of God toward their fellow man.

Lets look at Philippians 2 (New American Standard Bible) from a functional standpoint. The way the Hebrews wrote and thought.
The first verses of this chapter talk of the character God wishes to see in us. Then we are compared to the character of Christ.
(There are no punctuations or capitols in the original Greek. So these verses go together.)

 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
(So here it is important to note that this is something we are to duplicate. We cannot duplicate being in the form of God if that denotes deity or deity made into a man.)

 Verse 6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus existed in a form of God. He functioned as God and yet did not take it unto himself for selfish indulgences. He did not equate himself equal to God. (This is also a comparison with the first Adam, who did take unto himself the right to decide what was right or wrong for himself. [knowledge of good and evil]) Jesus was made like a man. Concieved in the womb of Mary. He was created/made a HUMAN. When he was found he looked like a man. Those who saw him saw a man. Not a etherial being of God. This is one reason why the Jews rejected Him. They were looking for a momentous sign and instead got a man in appearance. Jesus even rebuked them for looking for a sign.

The burning bush appeared as a burning bush but functioned as God. Even though Jesus functioned as God with all power in heaven and Earth, He humbled himself to be a servent to His brethren. Even though He had the power and right to preserve His own life, He obeyed God’s wishes unto death.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I love the daily verses
“Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36, ESV)

So God made Jesus His Christ.
God made him Lord of all.

No confusion there between Father and Son.

One with no authority and power is given them by a greater being, God.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jude 1
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So there is only ONE Lord God
and under Him
we have Jesus as our Lord.

[seekingtruth]

toteachachild,
Below I have posted what I believe the Lord has shown me about the nature of Jesus. He reveled this to me while I still believed that God was a trinity and knew of no reason to doubt it. I must warn you, my first reaction was that it was way out in left field, but it seems to harmonize with the whole of scripture so I offer it as my opinion.

Quote

hello and thank you to all who recently discussed the pre-existence of Christ.  i am trying to align my view of God with the scriptures, so i believe this trinity thread is still the appropriate place to post my  questions regarding the nature of Christ.  funny that i should ask men in an effort to avoid the doctrine of men…

Our brothers and sisters can help as Paul did, “follow me as you see me following the Lord” or something like that. But we are responsible for seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit as to what is true.

Quote

*Why was Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit?  In other words, if Jesus were only fully man, then why did the Savior have to be conceived of the Divine?  Why was he referred to as the “holy offspring” that shall be called “the Son of God”?   *If Jesus were only fully man, why be born of a virgin?  What would be the purpose? *If Jesus is conceived of Spirit and born of human what exactly does that make Him?  No scripture reads, “…fully God & fully man…” though the best I can come up with is “Son of God” and “Son of Man.”  In my simple mind, His conception actually makes Jesus “half God & half man” though I’ve found no scripture to say that either.

I believe that Jesus “manifested” from the Father at the point just prior to creation as this corporal existence was setup so as to support creation. In other words God's presence in this new reality actually brought forth a new facet of the Father, His Son. Having the very nature of the Father, but separate. Not equal to the Father, who is the source of all things, but greater than any being in creation. He willingly set aside everything, to come and redeem man for the Father. I believe he was only human during His time here. If man can clone DNA into a cell why would it be hard to believe that God could fertilize one of Mary's eggs with DNA from this manifested Son Making him the Son of God (by linage) but truly a son of man (I believe there is much more to DNA then we know that it ties it into spirit and soul).

Quote

* If Jesus did have deity, does that make Him God or part of some Godhead?  If so, how can God send Himself to earth?  Or how can a part of a Godhead die on the cross?   *If Jesus does have deity and isn’t God or part of a Godhead, does that make Him another god?   *Did Jesus only receive the fullness of God upon receiving the Spirit of God at His baptism?  If so, then how was He able to remain sinless and holy from birth to age 30?  Did He only reveal the Father after His baptism?   *If Jesus was fully God & fully man while on this earth then how can He truly identify with us in our humanity?  How is Jesus to be our example if He were not only fully man?

I believe He had no knowledge from His previous existence. He had only scripture, what His mother told him, and the leadings from the Holy Spirit, however there was one difference He did not have a sin nature, He was as Adam before the fall. I believe after His baptism He was filled with the Holy Spirit. During His entire life He (BY CHOICE) did only what the Father wanted. In Him we saw the Love of the Father.

Quote

*No other human had ever been conceived of Divinity, so how can we grasp this concept?  Why did it seem so easy for the apostles?  They were looking for the Messiah and knew He would be the Son of God.  What does that relationship mean?       *Why was Jesus ultimately crucified?  What was His sin, His guilt?  Was it blasphemy?  If so, why does His admission of being the Christ, the Son of God amount to blasphemy?  Were not the Jews looking for the Messiah to come also knowing as the disciples did that He would be the Son of God?

His sin was our sin, a price we could not pay. This is probably the best example of; “what satan meant for evil, God meant for good”.

I hope this helped, may God guide you to all truth.

[NickHassan]

HiST,
Test all things

[music4two]

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 19 2007,16:19)

hello and thank you to all who recently discussed the pre-existence of Christ.  i am trying to align my view of God with the scriptures, so i believe this trinity thread is still the appropriate place to post my  questions regarding the nature of Christ.  funny that i should ask men in an effort to avoid the doctrine of men… *Why was Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit?  In other words, if Jesus were only fully man, then why did the Savior have to be conceived of the Divine?  Why was he referred to as the “holy offspring” that shall be called “the Son of God”?   *If Jesus were only fully man, why be born of a virgin?  What would be the purpose? *If Jesus is conceived of Spirit and born of human what exactly does that make Him?  No scripture reads, “…fully God & fully man…” though the best I can come up with is “Son of God” and “Son of Man.”  In my simple mind, His conception actually makes Jesus “half God & half man” though I’ve found no scripture to say that either.   * If Jesus did have deity, does that make Him God or part of some Godhead?  If so, how can God send Himself to earth?  Or how can a part of a Godhead die on the cross?   *If Jesus does have deity and isn’t God or part of a Godhead, does that make Him another god?   *Did Jesus only receive the fullness of God upon receiving the Spirit of God at His baptism?  If so, then how was He able to remain sinless and holy from birth to age 30?  Did He only reveal the Father after His baptism?   *If Jesus was fully God & fully man while on this earth then how can He truly identify with us in our humanity?  How is Jesus to be our example if He were not only fully man?   *No other human had ever been conceived of Divinity, so how can we grasp this concept?  Why did it seem so easy for the apostles?  They were looking for the Messiah and knew He would be the Son of God.  What does that relationship mean?       *Why was Jesus ultimately crucified?  What was His sin, His guilt?  Was it blasphemy?  If so, why does His admission of being the Christ, the Son of God amount to blasphemy?  Were not the Jews looking for the Messiah to come also knowing as the disciples did that He would be the Son of God?

Question 1
*Why was Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit?  In other words, if Jesus were only fully man, then why did the Savior have to be conceived of the Divine?  Why was he referred to as the “holy offspring” that shall be called “the Son of God”?  

Response –
In order to answer your question I must establish a few points.

!. God himself makes comparison between the first Adam and the second Adam. (Jesus) God does not do these things just for fun and giggles His teachings always functions toward furthering His plan.
2. The term “spirit” in both New and Old Testaments is mistranslated in modern bibles. In both the term is literally breath or wind. You might look at this site to further understand how the Hebrews writers of scripture viewed “Spirit”.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_spirit.html

Furthermore the concept of breath is significant to Hebrew thinkers. The breath was the source and sign of life.

3. God promised Noah, that he would never again destroy the people on Earth and start again.

4. God is the source of integrety. When satan comes before the court of Heaven to accuse the brethren, God hears him and treats fairly. Satan has always had one major accusation against man. Man will never be perfect in function or relationship with their father God.

With these four truths in mind consider this.
God had a plan for Adam. Adam was sourced directly from God. God breathes into Adam the breath of Life. Adam was nurtured and raised personally with God as his father. He was a son of God.
Adam failed to accomplish the plan set before him. If you read my tretise on Phil 2 to Is 1:18, you can see a major comparison between how Adam performed in God’s plan and how Jesus did.

So the question became, “Will God’s great experiment work?” Can man actually become perfect? All God needed is one to do it. One to open the door. One to make the way.

Enter Jesus —-
In order to be a fair comparison, many things needed to be the same for Adam and Jesus. God has to be fair in this.
Adam is sourced directly from God.
Jesus is sourced directly from God.
God breathes the breath of life into Adam.
Mary is found with child of the Holy breath (spirit)
Adam is directly raised and taught with God as his father.
Jesus is directly raised and taught with God as his father.
(remember scriptures such as Jesus grew in both stature and wisdom before God and man. Jesus astounded the teachers at 12 y/o. Jesus had great knowledge because he was taught diectly by his father, God. Jesus knew that his father was God. When confronted by his mother, for delayng in the temple, he says.”I must be about my father’s buisness”.

At this point the paths of the two seperate.
Adam sought to decide for himself what was good and evil.
Jesus continually submitted to God’s wisdom for his life.
Adam failed to complete the plan. Jesus did not fail.
Jesus continues in the plan.
He is “perfected by the things he suffered.” He manifested his father’s name. This has special significance because of the way in which Hebrews viewed names. Simply put Jesus manifested the character (name) of his father.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_name.html

Jesus had the father dwelling in Him. He was the fullfillment of the types seen in the Temple. Housing the Holy breath (spirit) (we too are temples of the Holy breath)

Jesus was a servant to his brethren and obediant to God to the fullest degree, even unto death.

You ask –
* If Jesus did have deity, does that make Him God or part of some Godhead?  If so, how can God send Himself to earth?  Or how can a part of a Godhead die on the cross?  

answer –
God cannot die on a cross. Jesus had the fullness of deity dwelling in him, but that does not make him God

You ask —
*If Jesus does have deity and isn’t God or part of a Godhead, does that make Him another god?  

Answer –
No, because he must be human.

You ask —
*Did Jesus only receive the fullness of God upon receiving the Spirit of God at His baptism?  If so, then how was He able to remain sinless and holy from birth to age 30?  Did He only reveal the Father after His baptism?  

Answer —
No clear scripture basis to discern this but my opinion is this. — Jesus was filled with the breath (spirt) from birth based on these truths. The pouring out or filling of the breath (spirit) did not happen untill pentacost, 50 days after Christ’s death. Jesus was sourced from the holy breath at conception. A precedent is John the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. He astounded the teachers at age 12 before his baptism. IMHO, he was anointed for his ministry and publically presented as the son of God at His baptism. At times during his ministry it is said that the breath (spirit) of God was present to do healing. This indicates to me a ebb and flow of the moving breath or wind of God.

You ask —
*If Jesus was fully God & fully man while on this earth then how can He truly identify with us in our humanity?  How is Jesus to be our example if He were not only fully man?  

answer —
EXACTLY — He cannot be our example unless he is fully man.

You ask —
*No other human had ever been conceived of Divinity, so how can we grasp this concept?  Why did it seem so easy for the apostles?

Answer —
All men are sons of God through Adam. However, Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Begotten meaning “born.”
I do not believe it was easy for the Apostles. When Jesus asked Peter who did he say he was, Peter answered “You are the Christ the son of God”. Jesus replied that his father had revealed this to Peter. At least in this case it was by revelation that they knew He was the son of God. The most prominant teaching of Christ could be summed up in his teaching the disciples to accept and step into their rightfull place as sons of God. Even as Jesus recieved power from God, Jesus (by the authority given by God) gave power to the disciples to become sons of God.

You ask —
 They were looking for the Messiah and knew He would be the Son of God.  What does that relationship mean?  

Answer —
Perhaps a better understanding of the term messiah would help

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_messiah.html

You ask —
*Why was Jesus ultimately crucified?  What was His sin, His guilt?  Was it blasphemy?  If so, why does His admission of being the Christ, the Son of God amount to blasphemy?  Were not the Jews looking for the Messiah to come also knowing as the disciples did that He would be the Son of God?

Answer – The accusation of blasphemy was trumped up as an excuse to kill Him.

[music4two]

Toteach —
sorry I forgot to add. One reason for Jesus being fathered directly from God was a way in which God could start over with a new second adam without destroying man and starting again. This was due His promise to Noah. God “more or less” reset the clock with a new Adam.

[TimothyVI]

Hi Musicfortwo,

You said “God had a plan for Adam. Adam was sourced directly from God. God breathes into Adam the breath of Life. Adam was nurtured and raised personally with God as his father. He was a son of God.
Adam failed to accomplish the plan set before him. If you read my tretise on Phil 2 to Is 1:18, you can see a major comparison between how Adam performed in God’s plan and how Jesus did.”

By saying that the plan set before was God's plan, then when Adam failed to accomplish the plan of God, you are saying that God's plan failed.
I do not believe that any plan of God can fail. I think that it was part of God's plan for Adam to fail. Adam did exactly what God intended that he do.

I do not understand all of the belief that God was sorry that he ever created man, that he made mistakes that he learned to rectify the next time around. We make God sound like he was new at this creation thing, but that he is getting better with practice.

Tim
Tim

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
Adam was not sourced directly from God.
His body was taken from the dust of the earth which God had created first.

We are dust of the earth according to the flesh, enlivened for a few years by the breath of God, but we need the waters of eternal life found in Christ.

God is not a trinity or He would have told us so.

Instead we are told
1 Corinthians 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
2 Corinthians 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

When those who are deceived see “God the Father” in scripture
they read it in contradistinction to what they believe,
that there is also a “God the Son,” and “God the Spirit”,
but they never appear as such in scripture.

If the scales were removed they would see instead that such scriptures identify the Father as our only God.

[music4two]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 20 2007,17:08)

Hi Musicfortwo, You said “God had a plan for Adam. Adam was sourced directly from God.  God breathes into Adam the breath of Life. Adam was nurtured and raised personally with God as his father. He was a son of God. Adam failed to accomplish the plan set before him. If you read my tretise on Phil 2 to Is 1:18, you can see a major comparison between how Adam performed in God’s plan and how Jesus did.” By saying that the plan set before was God's plan, then when Adam failed to accomplish the plan of God, you are saying that God's plan failed. I do not believe that any plan of God can fail. I think that it was part of God's plan for Adam to fail. Adam did exactly what God intended that he do. I do not understand all of the belief that God was sorry that he ever created man, that he made mistakes that he learned to rectify the next time around. We make God sound like he was new at this creation thing, but that he is getting better with practice. Tim Tim

God did not fail in “His” Plan. Adam failed to follow God's plan. God gave man free will. If there was no possibility for the plan God set before man to fail it would be programing and not choice.With this free will man had the choice to seek his own will or the will of God. God did not create robots without will. Nor does he desire anything from programing.
Some deny man's free will to chose. The reason or function for man's free will is that only love given by free will can be real love. Only honor, worship, obedience, and relationship from a free will has any real meaning.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2007,18:51)

Hi , Adam was not sourced directly from God. His body was taken from the dust of the earth which God had created first. We are dust of the earth according to the flesh, enlivened for a few years by the breath of God, but we need the waters of eternal life found in Christ.

What is man? Does man’s body have animation in and of itself?  
The source of man’s animation and soul is God’s breath.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

“Being” can also be translated soul.

Even man’s body comes indirectly from God in that it comes from the matter that God created.

Consider these verses. —
Gen 7
 21All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;

 22of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

 23Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Job 7
   7″Remember that my life is but breath;
         My eye will not again see good.

Job 27
    3For as long as life is in me,
         And the breath of God is in my nostrils,

Job 33
    4″The Spirit of God has made me,
         And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
    5″Refute me if you can;
         Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
    6″Behold, I belong to God like you;
         I too have been formed out of the clay.
    7″Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
         Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you.

Psalms 135
  15The idols of the nations are but silver and gold,
         The work of man's hands.
    16They have mouths, but they do not speak;
         They have eyes, but they do not see;
    17They have ears, but they do not hear,
         Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
(no breath in Idols because they are not alive)

Isa 42
 5Thus says God the LORD,
         Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
         Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
         Who gives breath to the people on it
         And spirit to those who walk in it,

Eze 37
 8And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.

Rev 11
 11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

We are not enslaved by the breath of God, but rather are given life by it.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
We are given maybe 70 or 80 years of God's mercy as an opportunity to find the need for and then find the fountain of the waters of life before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If God has never informed us that He is a trinity
is it not a little rash and brave to override Him
and inform Him and the world that He is?

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2007,20:27)

Hi m42, We are given maybe 70 or 80 years of God's mercy as an opportunity to find the need for and then find the fountain of the waters of life before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.

EARTH TO NICK! EARTH TO NICK! COME BACK WE MISS YOU!
LOL

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
This is the trinity thread and the pivotal one for men to come out of the commonest of the deceptions of mystery Babylon so I do try to get folks to focus on this issue here.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2007,21:19)

Hi m42, This is the trinity thread and the pivotal one for men to come out of the commonest of the deceptions of mystery Babylon so I do try to get folks to focus on this issue here.

come on Nick. give me a break. You call this focussing on the issue?

We are given maybe 70 or 80 years of God's mercy as an opportunity to find the need for and then find the fountain of the waters of life before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.

Sounds more like someone trying to win the fluff and stuff award. But at least this post was entertaining. It made me laugh.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Try Ecc 12.
Pleased to entertain.
BTW while we are off the subject it is hard to reconcile the fact that you have a certain knowledge to share and you like to be taken seriously as a teacher, but then you bristle when asked to explain things and treat others with undisguised contempt??

[TimothyVI]

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 20 2007,19:35)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 20 2007,17:08) Hi Musicfortwo, You said “God had a plan for Adam. Adam was sourced directly from God.  God breathes into Adam the breath of Life. Adam was nurtured and raised personally with God as his father. He was a son of God. Adam failed to accomplish the plan set before him. If you read my tretise on Phil 2 to Is 1:18, you can see a major comparison between how Adam performed in God’s plan and how Jesus did.” By saying that the plan set before was God's plan, then when Adam failed to accomplish the plan of God, you are saying that God's plan failed. I do not believe that any plan of God can fail. I think that it was part of God's plan for Adam to fail. Adam did exactly what God intended that he do. I do not understand all of the belief that God was sorry that he ever created man, that he made mistakes that he learned to rectify the next time around. We make God sound like he was new at this creation thing, but that he is getting better with practice. Tim Tim God did not fail in “His” Plan. Adam failed to follow God's plan. God gave man free will. If there was no possibility for the plan God set before man to fail it would be programing and not choice.With this free will man had the choice to seek his own will or the will of God. God did not create robots without will. Nor does he desire anything from programing. Some deny man's free will to chose. The reason or function for man's free will is that only love given by free will can be real love. Only honor, worship, obedience, and relationship from a free will has any real meaning.

Hi Music4two,
I agree that God's plan did not fail, but that Adam failed to accomplish God's plan.

I do not fully agree with the free will idea though.
People are free to choose, of course, with this I do agree. But for our will to be free will it must be free of a cause to make us choose. And I believe that God places those causes in front of us and without that cause we would not be forced to choose.

Did the pharaoh have free will when God hardened his heart so that he would not let the Hebrews go?

Did Saul have free will when Jesus changed him in an instant?

Tim

[music4two]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 20 2007,23:45)

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 20 2007,19:35) Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 20 2007,17:08) Hi Musicfortwo, You said “God had a plan for Adam. Adam was sourced directly from God.  God breathes into Adam the breath of Life. Adam was nurtured and raised personally with God as his father. He was a son of God. Adam failed to accomplish the plan set before him. If you read my tretise on Phil 2 to Is 1:18, you can see a major comparison between how Adam performed in God’s plan and how Jesus did.” By saying that the plan set before was God's plan, then when Adam failed to accomplish the plan of God, you are saying that God's plan failed. I do not believe that any plan of God can fail. I think that it was part of God's plan for Adam to fail. Adam did exactly what God intended that he do. I do not understand all of the belief that God was sorry that he ever created man, that he made mistakes that he learned to rectify the next time around. We make God sound like he was new at this creation thing, but that he is getting better with practice. Tim Tim God did not fail in “His” Plan. Adam failed to follow God's plan. God gave man free will. If there was no possibility for the plan God set before man to fail it would be programing and not choice.With this free will man had the choice to seek his own will or the will of God. God did not create robots without will. Nor does he desire anything from programing. Some deny man's free will to chose. The reason or function for man's free will is that only love given by free will can be real love. Only honor, worship, obedience, and relationship from a free will has any real meaning. Hi Music4two, I agree that God's plan did not fail, but that Adam failed to accomplish God's plan. I do not fully agree with the free will idea though. People are free to choose, of course,  with this I do agree.  But for our will to be free will it must be free of a cause to make us choose. And I believe that God places those causes in front of us and without that cause we would not be forced to choose. Did the pharaoh have free will when God hardened his heart so that he would not let the Hebrews go? Did Saul have free will when Jesus changed him in an instant? Tim

I agree that we are put into situations and forced to choose. God planted both trees in the Garden. Without that Adam would have had no choice.

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