The Trinity Doctrine

[Is 1:18]

I would appreciate it if you would just address the scripture and attendant arguments I give.

Thank you.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Trinity theory is dangerous because it denies who our God is. It denies our God is the Father. It also denies Jesus is the Son of God saying instead God is three persons. So the Son is no longer seen to be the way to God and the one who mediates with God for us but is said to be that God. Children recognise this conundrum better than adults do. We need to know our God and to see clearly that Jesus is the way and the one we follow.

[toteachachild]

hi nick,

out of the mouths of babes – that's exactly what i was thinking! which is why i had to stop and think about what i was saying. i am considering your responses, truth and not so. i do believe God is not mystic. you have given me some things to think about. ps – where is t8?

hi is 1:18,

it is hard to understand the scriptures. and b/c i have no knowledge of greek, i often wonder if i had just lived when Jesus did, would i then be able to truly comprehend all that Jesus taught and would i then be able to fully grasp truth? sometimes i think so, but then scripture indicates that even the disciples didn't fully get it. and thankfully for us, Jesus says we are blessed b/c we believe without seeing and also that it is to our advantage that He goes away and sends us a Helper! I need some help, I am so thankful for the Helper! thank you for your link. you have given me some things to think about.

hi seekingtruth,

i appreciate what you had to say from a father's point of view. “It is the love for the sake of another which drives you to not want to take any risk.” that is exactly how i feel. i believe you truly understand my heart and my desire to seek truth. i appreciate your advice. you have given me some things to think about.

hi music,

how do i check out your thread on the dual nature of Christ? (remember i am new to this. ) i did read read your post about who Jesus is. it is long, so i am still working through it. thank you. you have given me some things to think about.

[toteachachild]

i found the pink, now that is more like it.

what i am contemplating now is this… what is the logical conclusion of what i believe about the nature of God? is His nature even something that can be fully grasped? does what i believe exclude me from the Kingdom of God, from receiving eternal life?

i know that even while scripture can seem to contradict itself, it does not. i do believe what is written in the scriptures. it's just that some pieces are easier to identify than others, so i'm having some trouble putting the big picture all together.

i think what would be helpful to me is if anyone who was willing could use the scriptures to explain to me what you believe about the nature of God and what is the logical conclusion, again based on scripture, of those beliefs. i know each of you might have posted this before… but 587 pages later and a lot of late night reading… please forgive me if i ask again.

at the same time i will be following seekingtruth's advice, “I have found that the Holy Spirit does indeed bring things to remembrance and reveals truth, and at least for me it is during those quite times alone with God. It is important that you test all things, deception will come mostly from the religious (those who look Godly).” this seems reasonable to me.

[NickHassan]

Hi tt,
God is one.
God is the Father.
God has a son whom He sent from heaven and filled with His Spirit.
We must believe in God and also in the Son.
We find life in the Son.
We can follow him into his death and resurrection.
We too can be filled with the Spirit of God becoming one with him and thus with God.

[music4two]

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 16 2007,17:11)

hi music, how do i check out your thread on the dual nature of Christ?  (remember i am new to this. )  i did read read your post about who Jesus is.  it is long, so i am still working through it.  thank you.  you have given me some things to think about.

Toteach —
this will make it easier

The Dual Nature of Christ

One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.

God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?

There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”

This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?

First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.

Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.

Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.

In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.

Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”

Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?

Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.

God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.

Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.

God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!

There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.

There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.

Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.

Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.

This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.

What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God,
Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.

Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?

Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!

What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.

Matthew 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Again I am taken back to Hebrews 1. How can I believe in a God that cannot exist?

Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand.

Some Trinitarians avoid the contradictions of the dual nature by making claim that Jesus gave up hid divine authority and became a man. They say this is why he was subject to the Father.
The one undeniable truth about the judeo-christian God is His immutability. He is the same from the beginning to the end. He does not change.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

or

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.

Some contend that while Jesus was a man he remained a God.
Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Failability (telling lies) is a human trait and cannot exist within God.
God cannot become a man or a man and a God.

[Cubes]

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 16 2007,22:14)

i found the pink, now that is more like it.   what i am contemplating now is this… what is the logical conclusion of what i believe about the nature of God?  is His nature even something that can be fully grasped?  does what i believe exclude me from the Kingdom of God, from receiving eternal life?   i know that even while scripture can seem to contradict itself, it does not.  i do believe what is written in the scriptures.  it's just that some pieces are easier to identify than others, so i'm having some trouble putting the big picture all together.   i think what would be helpful to me is if anyone who was willing could use the scriptures to explain to me what you believe about the nature of God and what is the logical conclusion, again based on scripture, of those beliefs.  i know each of you might have posted this before… but 587 pages later and a lot of late night reading… please forgive me if i ask again.   at the same time i will be following seekingtruth's advice, “I have found that the Holy Spirit does indeed bring things to remembrance and reveals truth, and at least for me it is during those quite times alone with God. It is important that you test all things, deception will come mostly from the religious (those who look Godly).”  this seems reasonable to me.

Hi T,

Welcome to the board.  It was a joy to read your first post especially, about you and your God loving family.  Your 3 yr old got it right… she understands that while a family are related and share a family name, daddy and grandpa are not the same person.  It's as simple as that.  

I bet you that if you were to try to tell her that 2 oranges +1 orange add up to 2 or 6 oranges, she'd give you the same argument!  No, they may not be able to figure out trignometry yet (nor can I) but they sure understand the basics that daddy is related to grandpa but is NOT grandpa, however much they may be similar or love each other and get along, and so do I.

May God draw your family closer as you grow in the knowledge and love of him and his Christ.

Blessings!

[942767]

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 16 2007,19:55)

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 16 2007,17:11) hi music, how do i check out your thread on the dual nature of Christ?  (remember i am new to this. )  i did read read your post about who Jesus is.  it is long, so i am still working through it.  thank you.  you have given me some things to think about. Toteach — this will make it easier The Dual Nature of Christ One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature. God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason? There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ” This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination? First let us define the term nature from common modern language. Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions; The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing: The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament: The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being. Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person. Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated. In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds. Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him. Isaiah 1:18  “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson,  they shall be like wool.” Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so? Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal. God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being. Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite. God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites! There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being. There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd. Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion. Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures. This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us?  We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them. What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it?  Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted  by those whom he so desperately loved. Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up others like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus? Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts? Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk.  But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man…  Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!! What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject. Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Again I am taken back to Hebrews 1. How can I believe in a God that cannot exist? Without the dual nature of Christ, both Trinitarian and Oneness doctrines cannot stand. Some Trinitarians avoid the contradictions of the dual nature by making claim that Jesus gave up hid divine authority and became a man. They say this is why he was subject to the Father. The one undeniable truth about the judeo-christian God is His immutability. He is the same from the beginning to the end. He does not change. Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. or Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. Some contend that while Jesus was a man he remained a God. Numbers 23:19 ” God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Failability (telling lies) is a human trait and cannot exist within God. God cannot become a man or a man and a God.

Hi Music42:

Enjoyed reading this post, and it should help those who teach the trinity and oneness doctrines to see plainly that their doctrines are in error so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth and prosper.

God Bless

[music4two]

Quote (toteachachild @ Feb. 16 2007,17:14)

i found the pink, now that is more like it.   what i am contemplating now is this… what is the logical conclusion of what i believe about the nature of God?  is His nature even something that can be fully grasped?  does what i believe exclude me from the Kingdom of God, from receiving eternal life?   i know that even while scripture can seem to contradict itself, it does not.  i do believe what is written in the scriptures.  it's just that some pieces are easier to identify than others, so i'm having some trouble putting the big picture all together.   i think what would be helpful to me is if anyone who was willing could use the scriptures to explain to me what you believe about the nature of God and what is the logical conclusion, again based on scripture, of those beliefs.  i know each of you might have posted this before… but 587 pages later and a lot of late night reading… please forgive me if i ask again.   at the same time i will be following seekingtruth's advice, “I have found that the Holy Spirit does indeed bring things to remembrance and reveals truth, and at least for me it is during those quite times alone with God. It is important that you test all things, deception will come mostly from the religious (those who look Godly).”  this seems reasonable to me.

Toteach,
I do appreciate your attitude. I might suggest a few web sites to help you. You might google “Ancient Hebrew Reserach Center”. The author has a good grasp on How hebrew writers communicated. Remember that all the scriptures were written by Hebrews. Their culture and the way they wrote is diferent then how we write.

[music4two]

Toteach states —–

what i am contemplating now is this… what is the logical conclusion of what i believe about the nature of God?  is His nature even something that can be fully grasped?  does what i believe exclude me from the Kingdom of God, from receiving eternal life?

Response –
I know not all will agree with me, but my studies tell me that all that is required to recieve eternal life is to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Others add things to this simple belief, but I feel they are wrong. God judges by the heart and not by doctrine.
Secondly – God does desire for us to know him. He has made that very clear. —

Consider the following —–

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Romans 10:2
For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

Ephesians 1:17
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Colossians 1:10
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

Galatians 4:7-9(Amplified Bible)

7Therefore, you are no longer a slave (bond servant) but a son; and if a son, then [it follows that you are] an heir by the aid of God, through Christ.

8But at that previous time, when you had not come to be acquainted with and understand and know the true God, you [Gentiles] were in bondage to gods who by their very nature could not be gods at all [gods that really did not exist].

Philippians 3:8
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

Romans 1:28
And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,

Romans 10:3
For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Exodus 6:7
'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Exodus 16:12
” I have heard the grumblings of the sons of Israel; speak to them, saying, 'At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God.'”

Numbers 15:16
16The oracle of him who hears the words of God,
And knows the knowledge of the Most High,
Who sees the vision of the Almighty,
Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered.

Hosea 6:6
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Hosea 8:2
They cry out to Me,”My God, we of Israel know You!”

Hosea 13:4
Yet I have been the LORD your GodSince the land of Egypt;And you were not to know any god except Me,For there is no savior besides Me.

John 17:3
“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

1 Corinthians 15:34
Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame.
2 Corinthians 2:14
But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, ” Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

2 Peter 1:3
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

1 John 4:6
We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

It is clear God wishes us to know Him.
Just a few scriptures to consider.
These are a few of God attributes and qualities. this is of course not all inclusive, but will get you started.
As to God’s essence? —
First, esence is not a scriptural term, so I choose to not use it to describe God.

As to God’s nature? —

God has represented himself in His creations. —
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Jesus was the “exact representation” of God’s nature —
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

We are also to partake of the devine nature —
2 Peter 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

God is a Spirit —
John 4
24″God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God is not a man —
Num 23
19″God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

God is everlasting —
Isa 40
28Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth[wash my mouth]Does not become weary or tired

God is impartial —
1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

God is omnipresent —
1 Kings 8
27″But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

God is invisible —
Job 9
11″Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him;
Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him.

God is the Judge —
Exodus 20
7″You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

God is one —
Deut 6
4″Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

God is self existant
Isa 44
6″Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of host
s:
I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

God cannot be tempted —
James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, ” I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 16 2007,22:54)

Hi Music42: Enjoyed reading this post, and it should help those who teach the trinity and oneness doctrines to see plainly that their doctrines are in error so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth and prosper. God Bless

Hi SDN,
Music4two holds that Yeshua did not pre-exist His incarnation, not as a sentient personage anyway. Do you agree?

[942767]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:17)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 16 2007,22:54) Hi Music42: Enjoyed reading this post, and it should help those who teach the trinity and oneness doctrines to see plainly that their doctrines are in error so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth and prosper. God Bless Hi SDN, Music4two holds that Yeshua did not pre-exist His incarnation, not as a sentient personage anyway. Do you agree?

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

I do agree based on the following scripture:  “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb withouth blemish and without spot: WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT WAS MANIFEST IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU”.  (1 Peter 1:18-20)

God Bless

[Is 1:18]

So you affirm this notion on the basis of this one scripture?!? Are you being serious here?

There is, in my opinion, a considerable amount of scriptural evidence attesting to the pre-incarnate existence of Yeshua. I might start a thread (if there isn't already one), I hope to see you and M42 there….

[942767]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:43)

So you affirm this notion on the basis of this one scripture?!? Are you being serious here? There is, in my opinion, a considerable amount of scriptural evidence attesting to the pre-incarnate existence of Yeshua. I might start a thread (if there isn't already one), I hope to see you and M42 there….

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

It is good to discuss our differences to see if we can arrive at the truth so that we can teach the truth of God's Word in unity, and so I am looking forward to the discussion.

God Bless

[toteachachild]

hi music and hello to all kind readers,

thank you for your response and making it “easy” for me. i have been looking into this sight a great deal more and i am becoming a bit more familiar with it.

i will respond to your article on the dual nature of Christ first. i had not heard it put in those terms before, although i have previously contemplated some of what you have written. you brought up so many issues that i will probably not have time to sort through them all with this post. (it must be somewhat frustrating to those of you who have finished searching as you are sure of your position. please be patient with me as my search on this topic of the trinity has just begun.)

you wrote, “Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.” i'm not familiar with this doctrine (though i admit i may have been taught from it) so i do not understand what you mean by the two natures cannot be separated?

“In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility.” i see your point here.

i do believe God is logical, orderly and deals with His creation as such. i also believe He wants to reveal Himself to us. and alas, i still find Him hard to grasp.

“God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being. Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite. God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!” i see your point here. and i am still working through all of this.

i surely do not believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God!

some of what i struggle with and am working through are the following thoughts and questions:

*John 1:1, 8:42, 17:5 and other scriptures indicate that Jesus existed before He came to earth as a human. If Jesus existed before His humanity, what does scripture teach us of how He existed (His substance)?

*God could have “sent” His Son to earth any way He chose. What does scripture teach us of why God chose for Jesus to be born a human? And what does scripture teach us of why Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit? In other words, if Jesus was only fully human, then why did our Savior have to be conceived of the Divine? Why was he referred to as the “holy offspring” that shall be called “the Son of God”? (Luke 1:35)

*If Jesus is conceived of Spirit and born of human what exactly does that make Him? No scripture reads, “fully God and fully man” though the best i can come up with is “Son of God” and “Son of Man.” in my simple mind, His conception actually makes Jesus “half God and half man” though I’ve found no scripture to say that either. So, what exactly does Philippians 2:5-8 mean – “…He existed in the form of God… but emptied Himself… being made in the likeness of men…”? i'm not sure what this means, but it begs my attention.

i have thought about that if Jesus was fully God while on this earth than how can He truly identify with us in our humanity? how is He to be our example if He were not fully human?

since Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit that could lead me to the conclusion that He has some Divinity in Him, and then i read that Jesus “emptied Himself” of His Diety, Philippians 2:6, and i also know that when John baptized Jesus he saw “the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him…” Matthew 3:16. so by this i could conclude that Jesus is the holy offspring of God, who emptied Himself of Diety, and now operates as a human by the power of the Holy Spirit as all believers are able to do.

please forgive me for not responding to the rest of your post. i am not disregarding it, but there is only so much i can work through at a time. whew! thank you for your continued patience.

[NickHassan]

Hi tt,
Keep searching the bible for teaching about a trinity as it is our source of truth.
You will not find it there.

It came from the shallow minds of men.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:37)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:17) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 16 2007,22:54) Hi Music42: Enjoyed reading this post, and it should help those who teach the trinity and oneness doctrines to see plainly that their doctrines are in error so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth and prosper. God Bless Hi SDN, Music4two holds that Yeshua did not pre-exist His incarnation, not as a sentient personage anyway. Do you agree? Hi Isaiah 1:18: I do agree based on the following scripture:  “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb withouth blemish and without spot: WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT WAS MANIFEST IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU”.  (1 Peter 1:18-20) God Bless

Hi,

I too struggle with the concept of Jesus pre existing with God.
John 1:1 does not clearly tell me that at all. There are too many other ways to interpret that verse.

However 1 Peter 1:18-19 could mean that even though Jesus pre existed with God before the foundations of the world, that it was still God's plan that he be manefested on earth in these last times. So that verse does not preclude a chance for the pre existence of Jesus, at least to me it doesn't.

John 17:5 is the only scripture in my mind that seems to confirm that Jesus was with God before the world began.
Jhn 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. “

Tim

[music4two]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 17 2007,12:39)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:37) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 17 2007,03:17) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 16 2007,22:54) Hi Music42: Enjoyed reading this post, and it should help those who teach the trinity and oneness doctrines to see plainly that their doctrines are in error so that they can come to the knowledge of the truth and prosper. God Bless Hi SDN, Music4two holds that Yeshua did not pre-exist His incarnation, not as a sentient personage anyway. Do you agree? Hi Isaiah 1:18: I do agree based on the following scripture:  “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb withouth blemish and without spot: WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT WAS MANIFEST IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOU”.  (1 Peter 1:18-20) God Bless Hi, I too struggle with the concept of Jesus pre existing with God. John 1:1 does not clearly tell me that at all. There are too many other ways to interpret that verse. However 1 Peter 1:18-19 could mean that even though Jesus pre existed with God before the foundations of the world, that it was still God's plan that he be manefested on earth in these last times. So that verse does not preclude a chance for the pre existence of Jesus, at least to me it doesn't. John 17:5 is the only scripture in my mind that seems to confirm that Jesus was with God before the world began. Jhn 17:5  “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. “ Tim

What does it say was with God from the beginning. It does not say Jesus. It says the Glory was with God. If God has set glory aside for His son from the beginning it makes sense and fits the other scriptures.
remember the teaching of Logos in John 1. this was the plan of God from the beginning to have a human son/messiah who would be given the keys to the kingdom and all power. Does it seem surprising that God would set asside the reward for this plans fullfillment.

[music4two]

Toteach — 
i'm not familiar with this doctrine (though i admit i may have been taught from it) so i do not understand what you mean by the two natures cannot be separated?

Response —
According to the common teaching Jesus carried within himself the nature of God and Man. Some teach that God left Jesus at the time of death because they cannot prove God can die on a cross.

Toteach —-
i surely do not believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God!  

Response —
Bless your heart, you are miles ahead of others that are mired in traditions of illogical and mystical beliefs.
Boy you are hungry. You have opened up several subjects to discuss.
Let me repost my take on John 1.
(I am copying this from a post I wrote to someone else. though I tried to edit it do not be surprised if i missed a reference to someone else.)

wikpedia =

logos — which in Classical Greek stands for: a) the (oral or written) expression of thoughts and b) the ability of a person to express his thoughts (inward logos).

At Robertson defines Logos as – 

The Word (o logov).
Logov is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logov is common for reason as well as speech.

Some say that John meant Jesus when he wrote Logos? Was John very confused? Did he change his mind about the meaning after a few verses?
I think of Logos as the intentions or motives of God. It could also be argued as God’s plan. In this way it fits all the remaining times Logos/word is used in scripture. Une of the primary tennants of biblical interpretation is to line up our definitions of words with the language and then cross reference them with other times that word is used. Especially by the same author. If Word/Logos literally means Jesus in john 1 then it should mean Jesus everywhere else in scripture.
36 times Logos is used in the Book of John. they translate the first four times as meaning Jesus. What about the other 32 times it is used? This is in the same book and the same author! By what authority do they translate 4 verses one way and 32 another? This does not even take into consideration over 300 other times Logos is used in the New Testament with the meaning always as an expressed idea or intention.

In the following verses in John, I have inserted a question after the English word translated from Logos.

Joh 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 2:22   When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which Jesus had said.
Joh 4:37   And herein is that saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
Joh 4:39   And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Joh 4:41   And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:50   Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Joh 5:24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,(Jesus or statement/idea? )and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:38   And ye have not his word (Jesus or statement/idea?)abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 6:60   Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying(Jesus or statement/idea?); who can hear it?
Joh 7:36   What manner of saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
Joh 7:40   Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying(Jesus or statement/idea?), said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Joh 8:31   Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word(Jesus or statement/idea?), then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:37   I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath no place in you. even because ye cannot hear my word.(Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 8:51   Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52   Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:55   Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:19   There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 12:38   That the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:48   He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath one that judgeth him: the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 14:23   Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24   He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 15:3   Now ye are clean through the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:20   Remember the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:25   But this cometh to pass, that the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Joh 17:6   I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 17:14   I have given them thy word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17   Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word(Jesus or statement/idea?)is truth.
Joh 17:20   Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 18:9   That the saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Joh 18:32   That the saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 19:8   When Pilate therefore heard that saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?) he was the more afraid;
Joh 19:13   When Pilate therefore heard that saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 21:23   Then went this saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)abroad
among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

How about I John?

Logos Count: 6

1Jo 1:1   That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of life;
1Jo 1:10   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) is not in us.
1Jo 2:5   But whoso keepeth his word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:7   Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:14   I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 3:18   My little children, let us not love in word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

How about Revelation”
Logos Count: 17

Re 1:2   Who bare record of the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)that he saw.
Re 1:3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this prophecy, and keep those things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 1:9   I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 3:8   I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)and hast not denied my name.
Re 3:10   Because thou hast kept the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Re 6:9   And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 12:11   And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Re 17:17   For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God shall be fulfilled.
Re 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 21:5   And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are true and faithful.
Re 22:6   And he said unto me, These sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which must shortly be done.
Re 22:7   Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:9   Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this book: worship God.
Re 22:10   And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:18   For I testify unto every man that heareth the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19   And if any man shall take away from the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written in this book.

Can you see that the definition of Logos = Jesus cannot work in the rest of scripture? The question still remains – By what authority do they translate these few in John a couple in I John and a couple in Revelation differently then the remaining 350 times it is used in scripture? Does their doctrine of the Trinity give them the authority to translate a few verses diferently then the overwhelming majority of verses?

God has used Logos over 350 times with clear meaning of a statement, expressed idea, plan, motive or intention. This is in complete agreement with the functional and relational way in which Hebrews thought and wrote.

I will help you with your other questions in future posts. I am snowed in today, so as long as my attention span holds out I will work on them.

Blessings to you and yours
>

[music4two]

Toteach —
Here is a chapter out of a small book I am writing. It has yet to be eddited or proof read. Please excuse any mistakes. I think it may answer some of your questions.

Chapter 7

Jesus Came in the flesh.

When the Hebrews spoke of the flesh, they were speaking of the natural, physical, material realm in which we live. The Hebrews did not see the flesh as evil but as part of he kingdom of God even as the spiritual realm. They saw no separation into good or bad concerning the spiritual realm and the physical natural realm. When they spoke of something coming in the flesh, they were speaking of it being of the same nature as the rest of the natural realm. It’s nature being one of the natural, physical, material, Earthly realm. It was later that the world of Gree Philosophy redefined “flesh”.

Paul often speaks of the flesh. In Philippians 1 verses 19 through 28, we see Paul again using the term “flesh” refering to his life/death in the material/physical realm. this was not an admonition concerning good or bad behaviour, but a simple statement concerning his presence in the “flesh” compared to his presence with Christ after death.

19 for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

 20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.

 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;

 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,

 26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Both Paul and John speak very strongly about Christ coming according to the flesh and being in the flesh.

Gnosticism and dualism would deny Jesus coming in the natural flesh because of their philosophy that the natural, physical realm is evil. They qualify his nature to avoid the conclusion that Jesus could be of the lower evil realm. They teach a mystical, spiritual Jesus wrapped in a shell of flesh or 100% God and 100% man unlike the rest of humanity. In the case of Jesus coming according to the flesh, this truth clearly speaks of Jesus being of the same nature and makeup as the rest of humanity.

There are, of course, some differences between Jesus and the rest of humanity, but none effect his nature or makeup
1. He is the “only begotten son of God” Begotten meaning born.(like the rest of humanity)
2. He is direct heir to the thrown of God.
3. He lived a perfect sinless life.
4. He is the messiah, the Christ.
5. He holds a position in heaven, being the heir, the Christ, and first one to complete God’s plan, that no other human will ever hold.
6. He is the only pattern for the rest of mankind to follow.

Here are just a few of the scriptures that clearly show Jesus is a complete human.

Romans 1/3
 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, (here we see his linage as being human., on his mother’s side from the line of David, and according to the flesh, his nature being in keeping with the rest of natural man.)

Romans 9 Verse 3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, ( Paul explains that his brethren are his kinsmen because they come according to the flesh as he does. (flesh= coming in the natural physical realm. His nature and makeup was human. The building blocks that came together at his conception were human)

4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5
 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Here Jesus is described as coming from the fathers according to the flesh. In other words of the same makeup and nature that Paul clarified earlier.)

Hebrews 2
9 
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10
 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11
 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12
 saying,
         “I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
         IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
13
 And again,
         “I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM “
         And again,
         “BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
14
 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15
 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16
 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17
 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Notice the very specific things said in this section of scripture —
Verse 9 – Jesus called son of man. Jesus made lower then the angels. (this does not say he was lowered from a higher position, but that his make up was that of being lower then the angels) Crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and tasted death. A God does not need to be crowned with glory. A God cannot suffer and die. All of these apply to humanity not a God. Scripture states very clearly that it was the man’s death on the cross and not a God’s.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one MAN, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. (Notice scripture makes a point to show Jesus as a man)
Verse 10 – He was perfected by what he suffered. Jesus was born sinless and immature like all other men and like all other men needed to be perfected through suffering. His work brings MANY sons to glory – US -!
Luke 2:52 “And Jesus grew both in wisdom and in stature, gaining favor both with other people and with God.” (Obviously he was not born a perfected God/man.)
Verse 11 – They come from the same Father and for this reason Jesus calls them (humanity) brethren. (All humanity are sons of one God including Jesus.)
Verse 12 and 13 – Jesus again calls us his brethren
Verse 14 – Jesus shares the same attributes of flesh and blood. Jesus fulfills prophecy of Eve’s seed. Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Verse 15 He is fulfilling his calling of being an example. His death is an example because he is completely human.
Verse 16 – Again pointing to his linage as a descendent of Abraham. His ancestors were human. A God does not need heed help from another person of God, but a hum
an, decended from Abraham does need it.
Verse 17 – Made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. Not in everything except his nature, but all things! Everything about Jesus was like his brethren. No qualifications or added concepts. Since it is clear that Jesus is in the line of David through Mary, Her DNA must have been present. Jesus calls her mother indicating that She was the source, of the egg, 1/2 of his makeup.
We know that God is His father, therefore in order to not break this previous verse that he was like his brethren in EVERY WAY God must have created a human sperm to fertilize Mary’s egg.

But isn’t Jesus called Lord?
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”

( in most translations there are two distinct ways in which Lord is translated. LORD (all capitols) in the OT is Yahweh the personal name of God. Lord with only the ” L” capitalised in the NT comes from the Greek word kurios. It means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God. Notice that God made him Lord or master over all the earth. This is not a title he has because he is a God, but one awarded him by Yahweh.)

Prophecy foretold of Jesus being like his brethren –
Deut 18/15 (Moses is speaking of Jesus )
The LORD (Yahweh) your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Verse 18 – 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Verse 19 It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
(Jesus is a prophet, a human calling. This clearly explains how he could speak first person from the Father) (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57)

Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan for man —

Jesus was the example for humanity having the fullness of God dwelling in them and becoming like Christ to the full extant.
Christ —
Colossians 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
The rest of humanity —
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (How do we measure up to the full stature of Christ? By becoming mature men. This comparison is invalid unless Christ is a man.)

Jesus is called Emanuael which means God is with us. Truthfully God is with us in the person of the Human Jesus Christ. He is the perfect revealing of the Father in a Human. He is one with his Father who is a spirit. He is Spirit filled to the fullest extant. Even today, men who have good and deep relationship with God reveal God to those around them by their actions and life. From their very being comes a revelation of the goodness of the God that dwells in them. To what ever extant they reveal God to that same extant do we have God with us in their presence.
Jesus is called the “Everlasting Father” because the Father (Yahweh) is revealed in him. Even as Moses bowed before the burning bush and called it God. The bush was not God but Moses recognised a physical revealing of Yahweh in the natural realm residing within the bush. So thomas could look at Jesus and call Him Lord (master in authority) and God (Yahweh indwelling and being revealed in the man Jesus)

Jesus is again compared to Adam
Gen 3-

 4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

 5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Adam and Eve seeing the fruit was good to eat, set out to meet their own needs. They had freedom to choose and chose to be as God’s deciding for themselves what was right and wrong for them. They chose to make themselves equal with God! They partook of the knowledge of good and evil.

Now we see, in comparison, Jesus and how he acted ——————–

Philippines 2

 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.

 3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

The preceding verses are not about the Godhead, but rather about becoming like Christ.
——– Jesus was in the form of God. Created in the image and likeness of God like all other men. He was a complete man in his makeup. Yet Jesus never partook of the knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore had the ability to have the fullness of God dwelling in him. Paul is specific in his use of the word “form”. If he had wanted to say Jesus was a God he could have simply said Jesus was a God! He acted in complete agreement with His Father’s characteristics and therefore had a form of God. When Jesus appeared, he appeared as a man. This was not what the Jews expected. They expected a great sign and wonder and got instead a man in appearance and make up.

Jesus knew who he was. He knew he was the heir to the thrown of God and a son of God with full authority of the Father given to Him. Even with this knowledge and power, Jesus did not seek equality with God and did not use his freedom or power to meet his own needs. Satan tempted him in this very area. “Make the stones into bread”. Most of us would have opened a bakery, yet Jesus refused to use his authority to meet his own needs. Instead he poured out his needs and desires even unto death for the benefit of his brethren and the glory of God. He even said (based on his authority) he could call down 10 legions of angels, but refused to use his power, authority or rights in opposition to the will of God. For this reason was he exalted. He was not exalted into his own glory but to the glory of the Father. Though he had all authority in heaven and earth and exercised a form of God he did not use it for his own needs or even to save himself. (First Adam compared to last Adam- Man compared to Man)
John 5/19 …. Truly, truly I say to you. the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner…..
John 5/30…. I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me…….. He never claimed to have his own power in heaven and earth. H
e said it was given to Him.
Matthew 11/27… My Father has handed over everything to me…. This means the power Jesus exhibited was not his, but the Father’s.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Again Christ resurrection is an example and a first fruit because of his humanity. The first to complete God’s plan for man.

Jesus rebukes the Jewish teachers for not being like Him. It must be understood that when Jesus talked to the leaders he only need quote a small portion of the Old Testament and they would immediately understand it’s context in whole. This was a common tactic amongst Rabbi’s in debating with others. Jesus further traps the Pharasees in their own words and uses their own proclimation that the word cannot be broken. Here Jesus quotes Psalm 82 in part, but the implication of the context is clear to the Jews.

In this portion of scripture Jesus Himself shows that God expects us all to be Gods in the way we deal with our brothers. We are all to be in the form of God in our lives and actions.

John 10

 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.

 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Notice Jesus is very specific as to who the deity is that dwells in him)

 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
 

Psalm 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
         He judges in the midst of the rulers.
    2How long will you judge unjustly
         And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
    3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
         Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
    4Rescue the weak and needy;
         Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
    5They do not know nor do they understand;
         They walk about in darkness;
         All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
    6I said, “You are gods,
         And all of you are sons of the Most High.
    7″Nevertheless you will die like men
         And fall like any one of the princes.”
    8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
         For it is You who possesses all the nations.

— Remember that the Hebrews wrote and taught in concrete alegorical ways. In Psalm 82- Yahweh calls them sons (humanity) of the Most High God. In John 10 Jesus quotes this verse. Again rebuking the pharasees because they are not Gods in their fulfilling of His character toward their fellow men. They did not have a form of God as Jesus did, because they did not have the character of God toward their brethren. Jesus compares their character and their actions to those of God that are revealed in Himself. He shows that in his character and actions toward his brethren he and his Father are one! The fact that Jesus states He and His Father are one is not proof of a triune God or else He could not pray as he does in John Chapter 17. Notice very clearly that Jesus prays that we are to be one with Yahweh and Himself in the same manner as He and Yahweh are one.
 1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
( His purpose to glorify the Father not himself)

 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
(Authority over all flesh? Humanity! His power was not his own but was given him by the father)

 3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(Jesus Christ who came at the fathers will not his own.)

 4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
(Jesus glorified the Father and accomplished the Father’s will. His own will was in submission to His Father.)

 5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Jesus had glory set aside for him from the beginning of time. Just as the plan of God was with God from the beginning, so were the rewards of the fulfillment. — notice it does not say Jesus was with him from the beginning, but that the glory for Jesus was with God.)

 6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
(Jesus again gives the credit to the Father for the men he has ministered to.)

 7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
(Again Jesus does not claim to have possesedthe knowledge, but gave credit to the Father)

 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that they came forth from You, and they believed thatYou sent Me.
(Credit to the Father)

 9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
(His followers belong to the Father not him. Jesus also shows his relationship as a son of God in that all the Father posseses is his.)

 11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
(Jesus prays that we have the same relationship with the Holy Father as he did. In order for this to happen, we must be of the same nature as Jesus!)

 12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

 14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Jesus gives the Father’s word, not his own)

 15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

 16″They are not of the world, even as I am not o
f the world.
(Jesus again compares himself to his followers)

 17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

 18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(Jesus says even as He himself was sent so we are sent. This clearly denies the statements that Jesus was literaly sent from Heaven. Otherwise the same must be said of His followers. In fact the word “Apostle” means “sent one”. Jesus’ life was orchestrated and directed by God. His work and His being sent to the house of Israel was from God in heaven. In like manner we as Christians in our work that is led by God are sent from heaven.)

 19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

 20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
(All these prayers and statements apply to everyone)

 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Jesus specifies his oneness with God and states that it is the Father that dwells in him, not the second person of a triune godhead)

 22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
(How many times does he need say it. We are to have the same relationship with Yahweh. Jesus says the Glory the Father gave to Him, He gives to us!)

 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
( Jesus says the Father is in him)

 24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prays for us to be in the same place as he is. Jesus again specifies that the Glory He has comes from the Father. It is not His own. Yahweh also lives out of our linear time frame so could easily love Christ befor his actual birth on earth or it is possible that Christ did live in heaven before his birth. Perhaps we all do! This is not evidence that He is a God.

 25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus had to be human for many reasons —

1.Jesus had to be a man to be the second Adam. He fullfilled that which Adam failed to accompolish. He again achieved dominion over the earthly realm.

2.Jesus had to be a man, born into the human family, so that he could be the human heir of the throne of David.

3.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be “touched by a feeling of our infirmities — yet without sin.” Jesus is a “sympathetic high priest” He understands our problems and is therefore able to help those in need.

4.Jesus had to be a man so that he could be the “son of Man” — In the New American Standard Bible, Jesus is called “Son of Man” 97 times.

5.Jesus had to be a man so that he could establish the pattern for the rest of humanity. Jesus was the first human being to fullfill God’s plan.” By acknowledging Jesus’ full humanity, we show proff that human nature is indeed “very good” as God put it after creating the first man.  

6. Jesus had to be a man to prove that perfected humanity is possible. He is the perfect example of what accompolishments are possible for all humanity.

I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I believe it is a safety to use scriptural terms to describe God.
The truth is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact the truth can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 97 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human. Not a God that became a man yet remained a God.)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit (breath) and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

John 12:44 thru 46
 44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right
hand of the Majesty in heaven.

There is one thrown in heaven. On that thrown sits the human Jesus Christ. When we see him we will see the glory of the Father revealed in the face of Jesus.

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