The Trinity Doctrine

[music4two]

Quote (Becauce of Him @ Feb. 10 2007,16:42)

HI music4two Is Jesus God

I believe the word is our safety and can be relied on to be a surer word of prophecy. When faced with the desire to describe and understand the nature of God, I prefer to error on the side of scripture.

Regardless of the argument of Athansian or Nicean Trinitarianism, Oneness, Hebrew Monotheism, infused Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism or any other concepts of God, I believe His plain and simple word is sufficient to use insofar as describing His nature and character. I would have thought that those who tout scripture so verbosely when it favors their ideology would demand that we use clear scriptural words to describe God.

Because of my trust in the word of God I refuse to use words outside of scripture to describe the nature, characteristics or attributes of God. Revelation 22/18: “I testify to the prophecies of this book, if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the the plagues which are written in this book.”

These non scriptural words so commonly thrown about include trinity, triune God, One God in three persons, three in one, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, eternally generated, eternally begotten, First person of God, Second person of God, Third person of God. Three Co-equal persons of God. triune majesty, lesser God, preexistent Christ, incarnate Christ, or incarnation. I have never been shown or myself found these words in scripture. Further it is more then the words themselves, but also the ideology and theology they portray. I am sure there are more that fall into this category, but I may not have heard them yet. I do not think the nature of God needs our additional wordage to describe Himself.

So what do I believe about Jesus and God? Here is a short list. This is not all inclusive but sufficient for this purpose. I only listed 1 or 2 scriptures for each statement though in most cases there are many references that could be used.
For the purpose of discussion I will refer to Yahweh as God.

God is the creator of the universe (Gen chapter 1)
God is the creator of Man (Gen 5/1)
God is faithfull and mercifull (Psm 36/5)
God is the Father of humanity (Mat 5/45)
God foreknows eveything (Acts 5.18)
God is not a man or son of man (Num 23/19)
God is not a respector of persons (Acts 10/34, Deut 19/17)
God is infinite (I Kings 8/27)
God is invisible (John 5/37)
God is justice and judgement (Job 37/23)
God has all knowledge (Job 37/18)
God is longsuffering (Psm 86/15)
God is omniscient (Jer 23/23)
God is one (Deut 6/4, I Kings 8/60, John 17/3)

–
——– Jesus——————–

Jesus is the savior (Luke 2/11 John 20/31)
Jesus is the first to fulfill God’s plan.
(I Cor 15/20,23)
Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Begotten’s meaning = began or born of the Holy Spirit (God) and a human woman. (Luke 2/1-7)
Jesus came in His Father's name (John 8/43)
Jesus is a descendant of David. (Matt Chapter 1 and Mark 10/47 Rev 22/16)
Jesus has step siblings (Matt 13/55-56)
Jesus is the son of Man (John 8/29)
Jesus has a human soul (Matt 26/38)
Jesus has a human spirit (luke 23/46)
Jesus has a human will (John 5/30 and Matt 26/39)
Jesus has a human body (Mark 15/43)
Jesus sleeps (Mark 4/38)
Jesus cries (John 11/35)
Jesus Prays (Luke 6/12, 18/20)
Jesus is the son of God (Luke 9/35)
Jesus is Lord = (Kurios Gr. in NT = master, one that is in authority. Not a name for God ) (John 13/13)
Jesus is Lord (kurios gr.) to the glory of the Father (Phi 2/11)
Jesus does not equate himself equal with God (Phil 2/6)
Jesus is the teacher (John 13/13)
Jesus did not know everything (Mark 13/32)
Jesus could not do some things (Mark 6/5)
Jesus did not seek his own will (John 5/30)
Jesus says the Father is greater then He is. (John 14/28)
Jesus is the vine and the Father is the vine dresser (John 15/1)
Jesus says greater works shall we do then Him (John 14:12)
Jesus spoke in figurative language (John 16/25)
Jesus is the second Adam(I Cor 15/45)
Jesus is a prophet and speaks words from His Father in first person. (John 8/40, Acts 7/37, Mat 13/57, Mat 11/21, Luke 10/13)
Jesus reveals the Father to man (John 12/45)
Jesus is the Christ (Mat 16/16&17)
Jesus came in the flesh (I John 4/2)
Jesus the man paid the price for our sins (Heb 10/12, 1 Cor 15/23)
Jesus is tempted (Heb 2/18)
Jesus made a little lower then the angels (Heb 2/9)
Jesus is the exact representation of His (Yahweh) nature (Heb 1/3)
Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Col 1/15)
Jesus shows us the Father in himself (John 14/9, 12/45, 8/19)
Jesus the man will judge the earth (Acts 17/31)
Jesus the man attested to by God (Acts 2/22)
God performed miracles and wonders through Jesus (Acts 2/22)
Jesus the man nailed to the cross (Acts 2/23)
Jesus is made Lord by God (Acts 2/36)
Jesus is glorified by God (John 8/54 , 17/22, 24)
Jesus is given glory by the Spirit of truth (John 16/13&14)
Jesus manifested the name of the Father (John 17/6)
Jesus came from the Father (John 16/27,28)
Jesus was filled with the Spirit/Godhead (Col 2/9) (Godhead means literaly ‘the deity’)
Jesus is the Messiah (John 1/41and John 4/25&26)
Jesus lives a sinless life.(II Cor 5/21)
Jesus is a made just like his brothers in every way. (Hebrews 2/16 and 17)
Jesus is the bridegroom (Mat 25/1,5,6 John 3/29)
There is one mediator between God (Yahweh) and Man (humanity) The MAN (anthropos in greek = Human) Christ Jesus. (I Tim 2/5)
Jesus is the word (Logos Gr. = expression, idea, statement of God) (John 1/1)
Jesus is our brother (Hebrews 2:11)
Jesus is our example (1 Peter 2:21 and 1 John 2:6 )
Jesus made perfect through suffering (Heb 2/10)
Jesus was crowned with glory and honor because of his suffering and death (Heb 2/9)
Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession (Heb 3/1)(both human callings)
Jesus is the door (John 10/9)
Jesus is the source of true fellowship (1 John 1:3 )
Jesus is compassionate (Mark 8:2-3 and Matt 20:34)
Jesus is in submission to God (Yahweh) (I Cor 15/25-28)
Jesus' source of Life is Yahweh (John 5/26, 6/57)
Jesus executes Judgement because He is the son of Man (John 5/27)
Jesus did not seek His own glory (John 8/50)
Jesus does not judge alone. (John 8/16)
Jesus has the seal of the Father on Him (John 6/27){Seal as in from a family signet ring}
Jesus has the Father in Him (John 14/10)
Jesus did not come to be on the earth of His own initiative, but God sent Him (John 8/42, 7/28)
Jesus worked with His Father on our behalf (John 5/17 through 47)
Jesus willingly went to the cross. (Mark 10/45 and John 10:17-18)
Jesus’ authority comes from the Father (John 10/18)
Jesus dies. ( Mark 15/37 and 44,45)
Jesus was raised from the dead by God (Yahweh) ( I Cor 6/14)
Jesus is a fore runner for us (Heb 6/20)

———— After His resurrection ———-
God (Yahweh) gave Jesus authority over all mankind. (Matt 28/18)
Jesus is King of heaven and earth until all His enemies are under His feet. (specific time frame)(I Cor 15/25)
Jesus puts himself and humanity under subjection to the Father. ( I Cor 15/25 through 28)
Jesus is made judge over the living and the dead by Yahweh. (John 5/27)
Jesus sits down on the right hand of Majesty on high (position of power on God’s right hand) (Heb 1/3)
Jesus became better then the angels (Heb 1/4)
Jesus inherited a more excellent name then the angels (Heb 1/4)

—————Holy Spirit————-

There is one Spirit (Eph 1/4)
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh (II Cor 3/3)

Let me ask a few q
uestions —-
What separates man from God? Sin right? If you had no sin, how much of the presence/Spirit of God could potentially be in you?
Suppose for a moment that Jesus is a man, literally, born from a perfect human seed created by Yahweh, he is raised, nurtured and taught by God (The Father) himself, how much of the Spirit of God could dwell in him? (John 8/26,28&29,38, 7/16)
What is the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit if not a description of God Himself? The Spirit that is Holy!
Col 2/9 Within Jesus bodily dwelt the fullness of the Godhead. What is the Godhead? The word Godhead, “theotokos” in Greek, actually means “the deity.”
If you had a company head, what would that title represent? The one at the head, the one ultimately in charge. So Jesus had dwelling in Him the Father. The head of all things. (John 14/10)
Jesus has the Father in Him and so the Father at times would speak, first person, out of Jesus’ mouth. This is just like all the prophets that have gone before Him.
Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father. The Father speaks through Jesus and says, “Have I been with you so long and you do not know me?” This was not the second person of the trinity claiming to be the first person of the trinity, nor was it the human Jesus claiming to be God, this was Yahweh speaking through His only begotten human son and prophet Jesus.

About Jesus’ parentage – Scripture says that Mary was with child of the Holy Spirit. So was Jesus the son of the Father or the Holy Spirit? Is Jesus the son of the first person or the third person of the trinity? This trinity theology becomes such a quagmire of contradictions.

Jesus is debating with the Pharisees and they boast that they are of their father Abraham. They use this fact to justify their activities. The Son of man, the prophet opens his mouth and Yahweh the great I AM says “Before Abraham was, I AM”!
Here we see the Father, Yahweh, The I AM, telling the Pharisees that He Himself is a greater justification and authority then their heritage in Abraham. If the fact that Jesus said I AM is proof that Jesus is God then that logic should fit the rest of scriptures on the same subject.
Exodus 3/4 God called to Moses from the midst of the bush. Verse 6…. He (Yahweh) said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look at God. Was the bush really God? Of course not! God simply revealed himself in the bush. Consider also the pillar of cloud, the pillar of fire, the Shakina glory and all the prophets throughout history. God revealed himself through and in all these yet we do not claim them as deity. Notice that Moses hid his face and did not want to look at God. He did not cover his ears as if there was a voice from heaven. A voice with no physical appearance. There was a physical revealing of God and Moses recognised it for what it was. Ex 3/14 God speaks out of the bush and says I AM. The bush is therefore God?
There are other examples where Yahweh speaks though Jesus and when viewed that way, they make perfect sense.

——–What does Jesus say?————-
First let’s establish that Jesus never, ever says that he is indwelled by the second person of a triune God. As an orthodox and monotheistic Jew, Jesus would have found the idea abhorrent. In fact Jesus says the opposite. Mat 19/17 “Why do you ask me what is good. There is only One who is good…..”

What Jesus does say is that His Father and He are one and prays that we would be one with them. Not one in some diferent allegorical way but “just as” they are one. We are to have the same relationship with our mutual Father as Christ. Jesus says the Father is in Him. We should have the Father in us.
Jesus never said he had the power in himself to act. He always gave credit to His Father for the authority he had to do supernatural actions. He constantly spoke of His authority coming from the Father and His submission to the same. He does not do the works but the Father that is in Him, He does the works.

A couple of more questions. I am not going to answer them, but you ponder them yourselves.
If Jesus is a “dual nature” fully God and fully man, which attributes and capabilities found in Jesus are due to his humanity or his deity? Even the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ has to answer that question. What part of His nature is being displayed in the following questions?

Jesus is the pattern and example we are to follow. If He is God, can you ever really be like Him? Does it seem fair of the “judge of all the earth” to compare us to a God (Jesus) and judge us accordingly? How much of the example is God and how much human? Does it seem fair that we are ask to be like Jesus when He is a God?
If Jesus is God and is raised from the dead, can that be a hope and example for your resurrection? What dies on the cross, God or man? Was He raised as a God or as man? I am not a God and neither are you, so how do we duplicate Jesus in our own lives if He is God?
Even His name speaks of the truth. Jesus = Yahweh the savior. Christ = The anointed one.
Jesus Christ = Yahweh the savior the anointed one. A man needs an anointing, not a God.
Why would a co-equal second person of the Trinity need an anointing from the first person of the Trinity?

Let me answer just one “so-called” proof text of trinitarianism to show how mired in tradition we can all become.
Matthew 28/19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
Simple question — What is the name Jesus is speaking of in this verse? Some would have us believe these names are “Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. However Jesus used the singular term “name”. According to Strongs this Greek word is translated name (singular) 174 times and only translated “names” (plural) 8 times. Since this was a commandment to His disciples and we can assume they knew Him and His intents much better then we could know them, what did they do?
Acts 2/38 – Peter proclaims you must be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 8/16 – Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 10/48 – baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 19/5 – Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Romans 6/3 baptized into Christ Jesus.
Did the apostles mess up and only baptize in the name of the second person of the trinity, or did they have an understanding that many today have missed. Did they have an understanding that was set asside in favor of tradition?
You see, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not names but titles, descriptions or ways in which God has revealed Himself to man.
What is God’s personal name? Yahweh, YHWH. This is derived from “Eyah” (I AM) as spoken to Moses.
What is Jesus’ name when translated from English to Hebrew?
“Yahweh the Savior”. Jesus said He came in His Father’s name, — There it is! How many times and ways does Jesus have to say or show that when you look upon Him, you see a full human being and dwelling within Him the Father, Yahweh, I AM, the only, single one God. Since Yahweh is the Spirit that is Holy and is in Jesus, Jesus is Spirit Filled like no man has ever been.
Not some mysterious part God part man, not some part of a triune deity, but Yahweh Himself filling to the fullness His human begotten son.
The apostles understood this and therefore baptized in Jesus name. It was not until the gnostics, Greek philosophers and sun worshipers like Constantine began pushing the polytheistic concepts that this verse took on Trinitarian meanings.
Some on this site have said in strong terms that you must believe in the trinity because it is a conerstone of the faith. If it is so important why does God leave it so unclear in scripture. Why does He not simply say, “There is one God in three person the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. The most important teachings of God are repeated time and again in clear terms. (though some sti
ll do not see it)
Salvation = If you believe you will be saved.
Salvation by faith not by works.
Baptism = Repent and be baptised
Pouring out of the Holy Spirit = I will pour forth my Spirit upon all mankind (Acts 2/17)
God is Spirit
Yet according to trinitarian doctrine the very nature of God and His Son are hidden from us. How many times I have heard others tell me, “It is a mystery brother. Just believe it by faith”. Sorry, but I know God does not want us to be unreasoning beasts without understanding. Who Jesus is must be the most important knowledge a Christian can posses. How else can we Be perfect even as our Father in heaven is Perfect. or Be Holy as your Father in Heaven is Holy.
If Jesus is perfected humanity made one with Yahweh in relationship and has the fullness of Yahweh’s Spirit (Holy Spirit) dwelling in Him, that is something we can do by following him.
Bowing before the Father. Christ in your heart. Rooted in Love. Comprehending the breadth and length and height, and depth. Knowing the Love of Christ that you may be filled up to the fullness of God. (Eph 3/14 through 21) In Jesus dwells the fullness of God (Col 2/9) and can in us too!
Man has a wonderfull high calling in God. To be the Bride of Christ. To fullfill the atonement foretold by God for ages.
Atonement = At-one-ment, made one with God, even as Jesus is one with His Father.
The entire plan of God is for us to become mature children of our heavenly Father. To become like Him in His characteristics. Our mutual Father sent His own son to show us the way. If His son is anything different then us that example is invalid.

[Becauce of Him]

How where the jew looking for.
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Jesus the LORD will came to His Temple!
Mal 3:1 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him who cries in the wilderness, Prepare the way of Jehovah, make straight a highway in the desert for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked places shall be made level, and the rough places smooth;
Isa 40:5 and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah has spoken.

Notice the voice of the one in the wilderness is saying make way for Jehovah OUR GOD!!!!!!

Mat 3:1 Now in those days John the Baptist *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,
Mat 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Mat 3:3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, “THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'”

John was the voice in the wilderness.
Jesus was the Lord that came. in Fact it said He WAS Jehovah And our GOD.
Prepare the way of Jehovah, make straight a highway in the desert for our God.
Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, (this is Jesus He is the Glory of the LORD) If Jesus and the Father are ONE their is no problem with this!!!! But if they are not one but two than we do not have the same Jesus and God.

[TimothyVI]

music4two,
Bravo, that was well thought out and written. I have printed it out so that I can
read and study your logic two or three more times in order to digest everything that you said.
I have had far too many brain cells already die to totally grasp too much in just one reading.
It takes me a little longer to absorb knowledge these days.

Tim

[NickHassan]

Quote (Becauce of Him @ Feb. 10 2007,17:07)

How where the jew looking for. Isa 9:6  For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7  There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. Jesus the LORD will came to His Temple! Mal 3:1  “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts. Isa 40:3  The voice of him who cries in the wilderness, Prepare the way of Jehovah, make straight a highway in the desert for our God. Isa 40:4  Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked places shall be made level, and the rough places smooth; Isa 40:5  and the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of Jehovah has spoken. Notice the voice of the one in the wilderness is saying make way for Jehovah OUR GOD!!!!!! Mat 3:1  Now in those days John the Baptist *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, Mat 3:2  “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Mat 3:3  For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, “THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'” John was the voice in the wilderness. Jesus was the Lord that came. in Fact it said He WAS Jehovah And our GOD. Prepare the way of Jehovah, make straight a highway in the desert for our God. Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,  (this is Jesus He is the Glory of the LORD) If Jesus and the Father are ONE their is no problem with this!!!! But if they are not one but two than we do not have the same Jesus and God.

Hi boh,
Christ is, since the Jordan, in eternal unity with God so when he returns God returns in him. As with us God is at work in him to will and to do. He is not that which indwells him in power. He is the glorious vessel for that God.

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2007,05:25)

Hi david, Before you join in the judgement what do you do on the 25th of December?

I don't know what he does, but I go snowboarding or go watch a movie with my family.

Many people just meet as a family because no one works for quite a few days, but usually there is no real reason to only have the meal on “December 25th”, but even if you do it wouldn't matter if you were meeting simply as a family and not “saying” stupid lines like “merry Christmas” to each other.

Most importantly making sure you are not praying before dinner with “we thank you lord for the birth of our savior”………because in doing so you are thanking god for the birth of “Nimrod”…….not Jesus.

Go ahead and get pissed off at the history books if you don't like hearing these facts……rrrrrrrghhhhhh

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2007,22:45)

Hi qu, The god of this world who masterminded the trinity apostasy would have men celebrate memorials rather than seek to serve our fearful God. What do you do on 25th December to prove you are different?

I've answered this in a different thread, but oh well.

I go snowboarding, or hang out with my immediate family (maybe go to a movie or whatever)

More importantly, when I do meet with family or friends I make sure no one is saying “merry Christmas” to me, as well as making sure the prayer before the meals don't ever say….. “Thank you lord for this time with family to give thanks for the birth of our savior”…. …simply because this “December 25th” that you are so hung up on is the actual birth of “Nimrod” of Babylon.

(whether it's the actual birth of Nimrod himself, or the “reborn” version of himself as Semiramis schemed, I can't exactly remember……but does this even matter?)

I'm pretty sure it's the date that Semiramis told her people of the “rebirth” of Nimrod through her illegitimate son Horus……but that's not even the point.

The point is……there is NOTHING Christian about December 25th

NOTHING!!!!!!!!

(watch the History Channel next Christmas while you are hanging with your family, I'm sure you would all find it very interesting)

It's simply a “worldly” tradition that False Religious leaders blended in to Christianity to keep people coming to their church.

They didn't like how much “revenue” pagan beliefs were costing them, so they came to a “Win Win” decision, and blended it into Christianity.

Whether GOD thought this was “win win” decision from his viewpoint is hard to know…….I'm guessing he didn't think it was that great……but who am I to know?……

I don't have 25 years experience in reading the bible like you do Nick.

What do you think GOD would have thought of this (so called) “win win” situation??

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

OOOOOOPS……

I guess it was in this thread that I answered!

I need to get off of here, I've been all over the place today!

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (music4two @ Feb. 10 2007,16:35)

There are beliefs in some pagan cultures that to pick or cut flower from a field and give them to someone is a wish for them getting the plague. I have given my wife flowers many times, however I do not wish for my wife to get the plague. Should I stop giving flowers because some hold this as a pagan rite? God judges by the heart. Your personal heart and not choices that other's try to put on you. God says to judge them by their fruits. I believe this is applicable to doctrines and practices as well as people. If I do not associate the pagan rites as practiced 1000 years ago with the Christmas I share with my family today. What are the fruits of Christmas with my family? A special and dedicated day in which to break bread, fellowship, laugh, bless others (with gifts) and remember together the fullfillment of God's promise of the coming of the messiah. If I do this on the 25 of December or on april fools day is of no consequence. Those who say I cannot do this on 12/25 are actually giving power to the pagans that used that date of other purposes. They use say we cannot have celebration on certain days because of their association with pagan rites. The truth is — those who celebrate Christmas do not associate it with pagan rites. In fact the ones who institute rules about certain days reserved for pagan rites 1000 years ago are giving more thoughts to those pagan rites then the rest of us. They allow the pagan rites of 1000 years ago to controll what they do today. God desire for us to remember him and his great promises. He has great desire to see our families share loving times of giving and fellowship together. It is not reasonable to think that God is bothered by the fact that some foolish people, 1000 years ago, used that date for pagan rites. Everyone wants to make God petty in his judgements. He is much bigger then that. Look at it this way — One one hand — You have pagan rites of the winter soltace that were actively pursued 100s and 1000s of years ago but are rarely observed today. Most people do not even know that particular date was used for pagan rites. These rites practiced have no more power then carving an Idol out of a tree and making sacrifice to it. So — 800 years ago you have a pagan man or culture who uses December 25 to clebrate some useless pagan rite. On the other hand — You have a man aware of the fact that Christ was not born on 12/25. He is also aware of the pagan rites once observe on that date.This man does not give honor to those pagan rites or run in fear of them, but uses December 25 to honor the precious gift of Christ’s birth and fullfillment of the messiah. He does so by gathering his friends and family together. Perhaps reading the story of Christ’s birth in scripture. Sharing fellowship and breaking bread together. Exchanging love gifts and well wishes. Even the members of the family that do not get along set asside their dissagreements and attempt to display the fruits of the Spirit toward one another. For some it may be the only day they do this in the whole year, but at least that day they do it. For others it may be one of the few days per year when they think about Christ and the gift of the messiah. This man uses this day to minister to his family about Christ and tells the wonderfull story of the messiah born 2000 years ago. God’s response —- You evil man!!!! How dare you worship me, honor me, bless your famiily or witness for me on a day when others have honored pagan gods. Don’t you know you are giving power to these pagan gods when you honor me on that day?It does not matter what is happening in your heart or the hearts of your family.It does not matter that you have no conscious ihntention of honoring pagan gods. It does not matter that in your heart you are worshipping me. I do not judge by the heart, I judge by the law. WOW!!! That certainly sounds like the God of the Bible! NOT!!!!!

There's a difference between traditions that are a part of some cultures and maybe are “said” to have stemmed from pagan beliefs, compared to pagan beliefs that are “PROVEN” to have come from pagan sources.

I'm sure when the Israelites made the calf to show worship to God, that their “hearts” were in the right place as well. I'm also sure a few people knew that it was wrong, but thought…..”oh what the heck, give me some wine and lets dance”

Not everyone in that group was killed, but the ones that knew better were!

God does judge people by their hearts, but if anyone makes an effort to get to know him, and actually finds out what god expects of them…..well……..there is no going back to false ways after this happens.

You would have been better off not finding out about this information, than in finding out and going back to your traditions.
(2 Peter 2:18-22)

There's a reason why there is only one group that is so actively hated on this earth. It's because they make a conscious effort to not continue with the “blatant” traditions of false religion and Babylon the Great.

Apparently when GOD said “get out of her my people” he wasn't talking about certain traditions that are difficult to let go of…..so I'm sure you'll be just fine. (I wouldn't sweat it)

[NickHassan]

Hi qa,
I just ate a bun with an X on it and it was delicious. It had not been offered to demons any more than the plain buns next to it on the shelf. Should I be worried about my fate now?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2007,02:55)

Hi Is 1.18, His begettal is shown in Ps 2 but you have never accepted this, so in what way is this related to you teaching God is a trinity from outside of scripture?

You're right, I don't accept that Psa 2:7 was a pre-incarnation begettal utterance, and with good reason. A thoughtful examination of the way the NT writers' applied this verse will quickly prove that these men certainly didn't understand it the way you do. Paul, for instance, put the Psa 2:7 exclamation in a post resurrection context in Acts 13:33. And scripture interprets scripture, does it not? Or does this only apply to certain doctrines NH?

The reason I asked the question is because I knew it would show that this belief of yours was not underpinned by plain and explicit proof texts, but rather inference (although the inferential evidence is, in reality, non-existent). So I think it was and is hypocritical of you to constantly criticize those who affirm the trinity doctrine, categorising it as something 'not written' when at least one of your doctrines is, in the exact same sense, 'not written'. I would also put the 'water baptism is essential for salvation' and 'Satan is a nefarious fallen angel' doctrines of yours in this camp as well. The latter two may have some validity but they are not specifically and explicitly outlined in scripture, some dots have to be connected, the conclusion is arrived at by inferential means. I have no problem with this hermeneutic, and neither should you.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Are we on a mutual search for positive truths or rather an intellectual exercise and an attempt to pull others down? I suggest you first search yourself and ask yourself why you accept the teachings of men over those of Christ.

[Is 1:18]

….in many of you posts you pull others down NH for something you do yourself, that was the point I was making….

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2007,01:46)

I suggest you first search yourself and ask yourself  why you accept the teachings of men over those of Christ.

….if I accepted your teachings, wouldn't I be accepting “the teachings of men”?

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 10 2007,05:06)

Hi david, Good luck with your earnest but deceived hope for salvation in the JW's and I hope you make it into the little flock, but the odds are against you.

Nick, I'm going to make a point here that I hope sinks in.

You told me you've been studying the bible for over 25 years.

That's impressive!!!

I'd like you to explain how the “odds” as you put it are against David…….

Are they against me too?

Here's my story…….

I studied the bible earnestly for 1 year when I was 13 years old, (shortly before I became baptized).

I then continued, not nearly as earnestly for another 4 years, from the age of 14-17.

I walked away at 18 and became a Tattooed angry drunk with a tendency towards violence.

Over 10 years have passed….. and I'm now 29, but I never forgot what I learned in those few years as a Jehovah's Witness. I learned more in the first year than most men learn in their entire life (including you)

So when Matthew 24:14 talks about the “truth” being preached in all the inhabited earth……….my question for you is this….

What are you personally doing as part of making this happen?

Don't tell me “this site” is how you're doing it, because most of the world doesn't have a computer.

Not to mention your teacher and savior in your opinion is inside of you…….so why couldn't he get all of these truths you have found to be from the bible into your heart sooner?

I received one year of solid education when I was 13, you are an “intellectual” with 25 years under your belt. I was a “babe” you are an “intellectual” (Matthew 11:25)

How could I gain the same amount if not more knowledge than you at such a young age and over such a short period of time?

I then took ten years off to search for my “own” version of the truth, and pissed many years of my life away in vein. While you still continued your vigorous study of the scriptures on your own.

After accepting the fact that I don't have all the answers I'm making my way back, and yet I still possess more knowledge from my little stint as a “babe” when I was a kid, than you posess right now.

How could this be?

It wasn't you that gave me this knowledge. It wasn't any of you “born again” Christians that gave me this knowledge. It was Jehovah's people that gave me this knowledge…..(Matthew 24:14)

And once a person receives it……there's no going back to the vomit of this world….. unless of course they conscientiously choose to (like I did). (2 Peter 2:18-22)

You are very smart, I'll give you that……..you are also one of the most arrogant and stubborn persons I've seen on this site…….you remind me much of myself (as well as my biological father).

My guess is you're not as “happy” of a person as you'd like people to think you are, but than again that may just be my opinion…..

And like my old man used to tell me…..”Son….opinions are like assholes….everyones got one…..and most of them stink”

You seem to push your “own” opinions over that of the bibles when ever you get trapped or stumped….But this is something to be completely expected by someone in confusion by all of the “mysteries” of false religion. (So I don't blame you)
(2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)

I leave these scriptures in hopes that you'll read them, whether you will or not is in “your” heart to decide.

I just find it odd that a “babe” such as myself with a fraction of the years you've put into the bible, could take you “head to head” on numerous biblical subjects, especially when I haven't even studied the bible in over 10 years.

How is this possible?

I've never had any fancy education from some “biblical” college, and have never given more than $20-$30 in contributions (combined) in my entire life to this organization!

How is this possible?

Answer me “all” wise one?

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 11 2007,01:51)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2007,01:46) I suggest you first search yourself and ask yourself why you accept the teachings of men over those of Christ. ….if I accepted your teachings, wouldn't I be accepting “the teachings of men”?

Hi guys…..Jesus was a man too….

He taught his fathers will to be done, and prayed for his fathers name to be sanctified. You'd better look for whoever is doing this in this world and quit discussing “trivial” matters.

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2007,01:31)

Hi qa, I just ate a bun with an X on it and it was delicious. It had not been offered to demons any more than the plain buns next to it on the shelf. Should I be worried about my fate now?

“your opinion's are your god”

It must be nice having such a close relationship with your teacher and god, seeing as to how you get to spend so much time with him everyday, as well as seeing him every time you look in a mirror.

Your funny though, ha ha

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2007,01:46)

Hi Is 1.18, Are we on a mutual search for positive truths or rather an intellectual exercise and an attempt to pull others down? I suggest you first search yourself and ask yourself why you accept the teachings of men over those of Christ.

You should talk big guy…..

You're probably the most arrogant person on these forums, heck even I apologized for my behavior when I first happened upon this site, and I'm probably the most aggressive one on here.

You don't humble yourself to anyone! (including the bible) You simply make rude comments when someone makes a point from the bible that you don't like.

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2007,01:31)

Hi qa, I just ate a bun with an X on it and it was delicious. It had not been offered to demons any more than the plain buns next to it on the shelf. Should I be worried about my fate now?

If you want to keep making excuses for following a man made tradition that just happens to give praise to Babylonian Sun worship, than this is your choice.

(By the way, If we were talking face to face, you'd never make that comment to me. I'm the kind of guy that makes guys like you piddle them selves a little when walking down the street at night.)

But your attempt at humor as well as avoiding a “normal” human response is amusing to me just the same.

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 09 2007,23:52)

Quote (quitarguingoverstupidstuff @ Feb. 09 2007,22:39) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 09 2007,21:41) Quote (quitarguingoverstupidstuff @ Feb. 09 2007,21:23) Watch the History Channel, or view the history of Babylonian False-Religious teachings before you blindly flaunt your opinions. Tri-union gods stem from Babylon over 2000 years before the birth of Jesus. They worshiped the Sun. After Shem killed Nimrod………….Semiramis, (Nimrods wife) decided to make Nimrod,herself and one of her children a god to her people. So she used Horus (one of her illegitimate children) as who she told her people was “Nimrod” resurrected. She started all sorts of confusing “Mysteries” to keep people confused for centuries. (Rev 17:5) (2 Thesalonians 2:7-12) All pagan beliefs, holidays and doctrines can be directly traced to Babylon from history books as well as the bible. All False Gods mentioned in the bible can be directly related to one of the folowing: 1. Nimrod (Tammuz (Ezikiel 8:14)/Osiris/Bacchus) 2.Semiramis (ceres/Isis and many other Greek goddesses) 3.Horus (the son/sun) 3 “man made” Gods all made from the twisted egocentric mind of a selfish “whore” (Semiramis). When god says “get out of HER my people”……this is the crap he's talking about. (false teachings, holidays, and doctrines) If you research Babylon the Great, it will be easier to see and understand where the idea of a tri-union, trinitarian god came from…..but that would require searching on your part, and not simply believing what you are told. I just don't buy this reasoning. It could be equally argued that Satan, a master counterfeiter, simply created “false idols” with a likeness to the real God….. Which is the real source and which is the copy?….. Who do you think was directing this whole “scheme” Of course it was Satan!! And by the way…you don't have to believe anything you hear, but it doesn't take away the fact that it may be true (unless you can prove otherwise). My bet is you celebrate Christmas, and yet this holiday was condemned by the people that started this country (USA), yet the people missed the celebration they celebrated in Europe and wanted the holiday back….and so the government gave it back to them. Kind of reminds me of the Israelites and the golden calf celebration. (yet if I remember correctly, god didn't think their little celebration was that great at all) Your ignorance is only out matched by your arrogance! (you and I have more in common than you think) I think you missed the point I was making quitarguingoverstupidstuff. You say: The trinity concept started with Babylon (the source) and was adopted into conventional christian thought (the copy). I say: It could be equally argued that YHWH was the real source and Satan erroneously copied the concept (via Babylon etc) to discredit it. After all Satan has appeared to have verisimilitudinously copied authentic christian concepts/doctrines throughout our history… Do you understand now?

So let me get this right…..you do believe in the Trinity.

Ok now I see where you are coming from.

Go to http://www.thercg.org and read about the trinity

I in no way condone everything on this site, (especially the egocentric man that put it together), but so far most of what I've read is biblically based, regardless of how much the maker of the site seems to think of himself. (and money)

[quitarguingoverstupidstuff]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2007,07:06)

Quote (quitarguingoverstupidstuff @ Feb. 09 2007,06:28) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2007,06:03) Hi qa, So you think you have found the right denomination and that is enough? You accept their whole kit and kiboodle despite knowing they harbour falsehood? Who is your master then? Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you. Why do you care? You celebrate a holiday with direct links to Babylonian Sun worship……and yet I'm the fool? I haven't been a witness in over 10 years, yet I never thought even once of celebrating a pagan holiday simply because it was “tradition” Ask yourself why you celebrate the things you celebrate, and take the time to realize that you are exercising in False Worship…..whether intentional or not. (watch the history channel during next Christmas). I hang out with family or go snowboarding, but I'd never bring a tree into my house, and do all of the other “traditional” things people do, because I know where those practices came from. The Israelites were used to worshiping False-Gods when they first left Egypt. Because they liked those fun “traditions”, they made up an excuse to have a party and say it was for their god. So they made a calf and had a party.Wooooohooooooo! What happened after that? Who are you to judge the history of anyone or any people when you “currently” go along with a sun worship tradition? Ignorance is bliss…………..but it's still ignorance!! And it can sometimes be quite costly…… So tell me……Who is your master? It must be nice for you to have such a close relationship with god, seeing as to how you get to see him every time you look in a mirror. Unfortunately, so far he hasn't kept you from disobeying the bible you claim to know and respect so much. You said…… “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you”. I hope this is true in your case….because apparently basic knowledge is something that still needs to be “added to you”. Hi qa, Was that why you asked what I do on 25th December? So you could judge me? What do you do? Eat bread and water and whip yourself? Is enjoying the love of your family called sun worship where you come from?

I'm laughing my but off right now…..LOL!

That comment was funny, I'll give you that…

I think I'm finally done with my days of self-abuse, so I won't be whipping myself anytime soon (maybe I'll let my wife….J/K)

Oh boy…..I'm still laughing……your pretty cool Nick….(regardless of what I or others say about you)

“Eat bread and water and whip myself”

That's classic!!! (LOL)

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