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Hi Is 1.18,
God did not teach He is any form of trinity and it is an insult to Him to teach about Him things He did not say. Scripture is the only sound basis we have for truth and things taught that do not come from there are thus manifestly false. To teach falsehoods is to risk the wrath of God and though the rest of the world accepts such risks if your fear God you should not join with them.Suggest you try LOGOS thread for your question.
Given that 'Son of God = pre-incarnate progeny of God' is the very cornerstone of your christology I would have thought that you would be falling over yourself to teach it's veracity from scripture. It's just a simple yes or no.
Hi Is 1.18,
We start with God Himself as does faith.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him
Heb 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The origins of Christ do not directly affect your salvation but knowing he is the Son of God and that belief in him decides your fate does.
Jn 3
” 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
He is the stone that is either stumbled over or used as a foundation in God's building.
If God is a trinity God has no monogenes son.
That's interesting…..anyway…back to the question at hand….
Did God teach us about the pre-incarnate birth of the Logos in scripture?
Hi Is 1.18,
His begettal is shown in Ps 2 but you have never accepted this, so in what way is this related to you teaching God is a trinity from outside of scripture?Quote
First off the bat dave, I guess deep down we all know the reason you are here, and that is to promote the JWs.
T8, of course, you're completely wrong. I came on here and discussed many things for about what, a year and a half. I didn't even mention JW's until Nick asked me who I was. Then, Nick proceeded to question the beliefs of JW. Several JW threads have been started on here, and not by me. I tend to go along with whatever is being discussed. It's only when there are repeated attacks and false accusations against JW's that I start talking that way. The truth, is what I am here to espouse.Quote As for JWs preaching the Good News, well their version of good news means joining the JWs and perhaps even parting with 10% of your income. But the fruit of the good news is that people are found in Christ who is the image of God and head of the true Church. T8, please stop lying. I'm using that word, because I've told you several times now, months ago, a year ago, two days ago, that no such thing is even close to the truth.
As matthew (qa) said in another thread:
…..Well if they're a cult….it's the first cult that I know of… that doesn't expect anyone to contribute unless they want to (I certainly never did),So, you're wrong. Please stop perpetuating this lie.
As I've said to you a few times before, I'm sorry false religion has taken your money, or your families money. We do not represent them.Understand it. Remember it. Please stop the slander. The first few times, I simply explained it. This time I expect you to remember it. It is a lie, that you promote. Stop.
Quote As for the disunity in this website, well of course you will find disunity, for what unity does truth have with lies?
So, t8, that makes me wonder which one of you is lying–you, or Nick? My point is that there is no one on the planet, I suspect that believes the exact same set of beliefs as you. Are you the only one who has the truth? If there is anyone on here, one would think you’d agree with, it would be Nick. But they’d be wrong. I suggest you two sort this out.Quote Also the disunity you speak of includes yourself as you are an equal member here too and I would like to add that your gospel rather than creating unity in truth,
Ah, that's the point. Thankyou. I, dear T8, am not disunited with my brothers. You are. I disagree with you, because you are wrong. I don't disagree with people when they speak the truth. I don't disagree with you when you speak of the trinity. I dont' disagree with another JW when on this site. Jehovah's Witnesses are not a disunited band of ….
Considering we're made up of people of all languages, nations, etc, our unity is …. miraculous, to say the least.david
Quote Please note that I am neither saying “let all denominations unite” Quote and therefore you are guilty of . . . . promoting the endless division of denominations and cults You accuse me of promoting division of denominations. Sorry, t8, but denominations are already divided. They are divided from the truth and each other in attitudes, actions and purpose.
Quote Now the point of this discussion is the Trinity Doctrine and those who seek truth would surely prefer that scriptures are given for or against, rather than using it as a springboard to sell a denomination, cult, cheap software, party pills, and the like. Sorry. Good point.
Isn't it interesting that if you claim not to believe in the trinity, you will almost always invariably be accused of being a…. well, you know.Hi david,
Good luck with your earnest but deceived hope for salvation in the JW's and I hope you make it into the little flock, but the odds are against you.Quote Do I enjoy the holiday with my family? Yes. So you do celebrate Christmas then, Nick. I've asked you this question so many times.
Quote Why do you care? You celebrate a holiday with direct links to Babylonian Sun worship……and yet I'm the fool?
I haven't been a witness in over 10 years, yet I never thought even once of celebrating a pagan holiday simply because it was “tradition”
Quote Is enjoying the love of your family called sun worship where you come from? –Nick
Nick, of course it's not the lofe of family that we are talking about.
It's the syncrtism, tradition of lies, paganism, ancient false god worship,For some weird reason, you equate “not working” with “celebrating.” This is false. However, I am self employed and barely work at all, really. (Hence, I'm on here a lot.) The people we work with do not do business on that day. It is literally impossible for me to work on that day. I did notice that you or your posts seemed to dissappear completely on that day and the following days. My routine didn't change in the slightest. I wonder where you were.
But when we look at the ancient cultures that celebrated these pagan holidays and held them as special, and the customs that were associated with them, you won't find that I have anything to do with them.
Nick, have you ever thought that because you hold this day as special, that you are in effect supporting a lie? It's not Jesus birth, for example. Yet, it is celebrated as such.
For some reason, when ever this subject is mentioned, you start using the word “judgment.”
If someone is lying, or practicing paganism and I use scripture to denounce such things, is that judging?
If someone is supporting the trinity belief and you use scripture to denounce such things, is that judging?Being a Christian, a true follower of Christ, isn't supposed to be easy Nick. Just wondering what troubles you come up against in your normal life because of your beliefs.
Hi david,
Can you quote where I said this day is special?
Trinity is just as popular a false belief here as anywhere else in the world.
There are beliefs in some pagan cultures that to pick or cut flower from a field and give them to someone is a wish for them getting the plague. I have given my wife flowers many times, however I do not wish for my wife to get the plague. Should I stop giving flowers because some hold this as a pagan rite?
God judges by the heart. Your personal heart and not choices that other's try to put on you. God says to judge them by their fruits. I believe this is applicable to doctrines and practices as well as people.
If I do not associate the pagan rites as practiced 1000 years ago with the Christmas I share with my family today. What are the fruits of Christmas with my family?
A special and dedicated day in which to break bread, fellowship, laugh, bless others (with gifts) and remember together the fullfillment of God's promise of the coming of the messiah. If I do this on the 25 of December or on april fools day is of no consequence.
Those who say I cannot do this on 12/25 are actually giving power to the pagans that used that date of other purposes. They use say we cannot have celebration on certain days because of their association with pagan rites. The truth is — those who celebrate Christmas do not associate it with pagan rites. In fact the ones who institute rules about certain days reserved for pagan rites 1000 years ago are giving more thoughts to those pagan rites then the rest of us. They allow the pagan rites of 1000 years ago to controll what they do today.God desire for us to remember him and his great promises. He has great desire to see our families share loving times of giving and fellowship together. It is not reasonable to think that God is bothered by the fact that some foolish people, 1000 years ago, used that date for pagan rites.
Everyone wants to make God petty in his judgements. He is much bigger then that.Look at it this way —
One one hand — You have pagan rites of the winter soltace that were actively pursued 100s and 1000s of years ago but are rarely observed today. Most people do not even know that particular date was used for pagan rites. These rites practiced have no more power then carving an Idol out of a tree and making sacrifice to it.
So — 800 years ago you have a pagan man or culture who uses December 25 to clebrate some useless pagan rite.On the other hand — You have a man aware of the fact that Christ was not born on 12/25. He is also aware of the pagan rites once observe on that date.This man does not give honor to those pagan rites or run in fear of them, but uses December 25 to honor the precious gift of Christ’s birth and fullfillment of the messiah. He does so by gathering his friends and family together. Perhaps reading the story of Christ’s birth in scripture. Sharing fellowship and breaking bread together. Exchanging love gifts and well wishes. Even the members of the family that do not get along set asside their dissagreements and attempt to display the fruits of the Spirit toward one another. For some it may be the only day they do this in the whole year, but at least that day they do it. For others it may be one of the few days per year when they think about Christ and the gift of the messiah. This man uses this day to minister to his family about Christ and tells the wonderfull story of the messiah born 2000 years ago.
God’s response —- You evil man!!!! How dare you worship me, honor me, bless your famiily or witness for me on a day when others have honored pagan gods. Don’t you know you are giving power to these pagan gods when you honor me on that day?It does not matter what is happening in your heart or the hearts of your family.It does not matter that you have no conscious ihntention of honoring pagan gods. It does not matter that in your heart you are worshipping me. I do not judge by the heart, I judge by the law.
WOW!!! That certainly sounds like the God of the Bible! NOT!!!!!
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