The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
You quote
A man like you and I were born of a human father's sperm, but of Jesus the angel of the Lord spoke to Joseph saying, “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is CONCEIVED in her is of the Holy Ghost. “

I agree Christ was conceived, not placed in a surrogate mother.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94
Is 53
” 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. “

Seems to describe a rather unfortunate youth and man who knew the loss of Joseph and was not obviously physically advantaged, perhaps rather of frail health?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,02:24)

Hi 94 Is 53 ” 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. “ Seems to describe a rather unfortunate youth and man who knew the loss of Joseph and was not obviously physically advantaged, perhaps rather of frail health?

Thanks for pointing this out NicK:

I would say that because of all of the things that he suffered in behalf of humanity there were times that he did not feel very well to say the very least.  He was dieing daily in our behalf.

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth”. (Isaiah 53:5-7)

God Bless

[music4two]

942767 and Nick,

As I said we are moving into realms of speculation with little or no clear scripture to guide us.
My opinion and I m open to be taught differently. —
First let me state the obvious. Jesus is of both God and Mary. This is clear in scripture.
Throughout Hebrew history, bloodlines and family ties have been very closely recorded. The Hebrews believed there was good and bad seed from which a person could come. God also told them not to mary into the heathen tribes. It has been my experiance that when you see someting carried out in the natural in the Jews there is usually a spiritual counterpoint. Could there be a spiritual genetics? I do believe Mary was chosen (she found favor in the sight of God) because she held characteristics favorable to be the human mother of Christ. Genetics? Spiritual and/or physical? I don't know.
If there is spiritual genetics, then those of more pure spiritual quality would be dominant over lesser quality spiritual genom. At least that is the way natural genetics work. If this is the case then the physical aspects may easily come from Mary since God is spirit and poseses no natural physical characteristics. However, the spiritual characteristics/starting points would come from the dominent gene pool, God.
Often times we see Jesus coming in His Father’s name as being a position or an identifier of heritage. The Hebrews saw names differently, as I have posted before. Hebrews define name as character traits. Character traits are a matter of the soul and spirit and not the physical. Could Jesus come in the character traits of His Father because the building blocks at His conception included dominent spiritual genetic material from God?

Boy we are out in speculation land now. Don’t anyone ask me to prove my theory. I cannot! I simply have a theory that fits some of the facts.

To me it seems simpler to assume that whatever God did to inpregnate Mary, the end result was pure and complete humanity. I personally do not believe that Jesus preexisted prior to his birth on earth. There are those that do. There ae those that believe all humans preexist before being born on Earth. Jesse Duplantis claims to have had a vision of millions of not yet born souls in heaven awaiting birth on Earth. I do know that Jesus did not preexist as a second person of a triune God. Beyond that I am open to being shown diferently.

[music4two]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 26 2007,03:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,02:24) Hi 94 Is 53 ” 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. “ Seems to describe a rather unfortunate youth and man who knew the loss of Joseph and was not obviously physically advantaged, perhaps rather of frail health? Thanks for pointing this out NicK: I would say that because of all of the things that he suffered in behalf of humanity there were times that he did not feel very well to say the very least.  He was dieing daily in our behalf. “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.  All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth”. (Isaiah 53:5-7) God Bless

All of the afliction I have seen however, comes from an outside source and not an inner genetic defect or weakness.
As science is discovering more and more, many of the deseases we suffer today or partialy from outside influinces but greatly effected by gentic material passed on from our parents.
Certainly Jesus being at least in part sourced from God would have an immune system not damaged by 4000 years of genetic corruption.

[music4two]

One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:)

[music4two]

Out os here for the night — God Bless all

[NickHassan]

Hi M42,
After the Jordan the nature of Christ was the fullness of the fruits of the Spirit

Gal 5

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

and the gifts of the Spirit

1Cor 12

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.”

Christ manifested all the aspects of God's Holy Spirit because he had been filled and anointed with the fullness of deity. That transformed his CHARACTER. He now revealed the CHARACTER of God living in him. That is not to say he was a shell or a puppet that had no will of his own, as shown in Gethsemene, but in the power and love of God he walked in the Spirit and he was enabled to overcome satan and sinful flesh and show us the way.
We too are to also seek this infilling to continue to let the Light shine out from our beings too and to show men the loving and powerful nature of God.

[Proclaimer]

The Trinity like Evolution are theories that are believed by many, and are designed as templates for those who trust in men and cannot be bothered seeking the truth for themselves.

If a man believes in the Trinity and claims to have sought the truth and God revealed that doctrine to him, then that man is not listening to the Spirit of Truth.

[NickHassan]

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,04:13)

One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:)

Hi m42,
Is sickness due to lack of faith then??
hmmm

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
You say
“Certainly Jesus being at least in part sourced from God would have an immune system not damaged by 4000 years of genetic corruption.”

What about the other part?
I think there is a danger of thinking of Jesus as a superman, taller and more handsome than the average and rather like the pictures of an Adonis in religious books. I think that is a fallacy and certainly I would rather know he was like to me and you, weak and very average in every way, so I can follow him.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,23:00)

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,04:13) One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:) Hi m42, Is sickness due to lack of faith then?? hmmm

I do believe Jesus was perfect in His faith. If He had faith of a mustard seed He could move mountains. I cannot believe He would volunteer to be sick when He had faith to prevent it.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,23:04)

Hi m42, You say “Certainly Jesus being at least in part sourced from God would have an immune system not damaged by 4000 years of genetic corruption.” What about the other part? I think there is a danger of thinking of Jesus as a superman, taller and more handsome than the average and rather like the pictures of an Adonis in religious books. I think that is a fallacy and certainly I would rather know he was like to me and you, weak and very average in every way, so I can follow him.

As I said there was a great deal of speculation in my last few posts and I admit I have not figured it all out on that subject.

I do agree with you that Christ was identical and human with potential to be sick just like us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,23:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2007,23:00) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,04:13) One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:) Hi m42, Is sickness due to lack of faith then?? hmmm I do believe Jesus was perfect in His faith. If He had faith of a mustard seed He could move mountains. I cannot believe He would volunteer to be sick when He had faith to prevent it.

Hi m42,
Do you think God came in flesh for this to be so ? Or was Christ just like us exposed to all the trials of life before his anointing at the Jordan? Are you not speculating that he had huge advantages that kept him in perfect health?
Does an infant volunteer to get diarrhoea or tonsillitis?

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2007,04:00)

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,04:13) One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:) Hi m42, Is sickness due to lack of faith then?? hmmm

Hi Nick and M42,

I agree w/ you, Nick.

John 9:1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I* must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Being born blind is not “shalom” so may be considered as a form of defect in health as I am sure the man was glad to see the natural world.  Thus it was a blessing for him to be healed.  Yet, his blindness was not due to any sin relating to himself or his parents.

Also, Jesus knew hunger and sorrow which is a big part of the condition of fallen man.  It would seem to me that for Jesus to be as one of us in order to be acquainted with our troubles, he'd have to have experienced pain too among other things.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Amen!

[942767]

Hi Music42:

You say:

Boy we are out in speculation land now.  Don’t anyone ask me to prove my theory. I cannot! I
simply have a theory that fits some of the facts.

 And I say,sorry, I don't even want to go the route of this speculation.

Praying for God to Bless you.

[942767]

Hi All:

There are some diseases that are contagious, and so I do believe that Jesus was subject to get sick just as we all are, and by his faith, if he did get sick, he could ask God for healing just as we can when we get sick.

My understanding of the scripture that states that “whatever is not of faith is sin” is that if you do something that you believe is contrary to the word of God then it is sin to you whereas it may not be sin to someone who believes differently–i.e eating pork.

God Bless

[Cubes]

Quote

Quote (Cubes @ Jan. 25 2007,17:05) If we believed them to be on equal footing, then you are right. But I believe that Moses was a prophet of God, who was as God to Pharoah to the performing of wonders as granted by YHWH, one who could do nothing without God. Moses was real. He really did exist and brought the people out of Egypt (by the hand of YHWH). Hi Cubes Yes Moses was “as God” to Pharaoh. Yahshua was simply designated “God” in the NT. Quote In this statement, you'd hopefully recognize that I mean that YHWH is utmost GOD and that I acknowledge the total reliance of Moses upon GOD. You mean there is more than One God (divine being)??? Wow!, I thought that there was only One, and that every other being was part of His creation…. Quote Similarly with Jesus, except that as David's post explained, Jesus is yet greater than Moses He he….Cubes I'm going to nominate that for the understatement of the year. Yes Yahshua was “greater than Moses”, He is greater in the same way a builder is greater than His house: Hebrews 3:1-6 1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Yahshua = Creator Moses = Creation The gulf between Moses and Yahshua in terms of their “greatness” is incomprehensibly vast. Quote but still dependent upon GOD having nothing that has not been given to him, and proceeding out of God, having God as his head… living because of the Father, etc. Need I go on? Philippians 2:5-8 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Quote We are not polytheists. Trinitism on the other hand is, by having EQUAL personS in ORIGINS and ALL attributes that characterize “GOD,” and by referring to one who is under GOD [most high] as GOD Most High Well herein lies the problem for you Cubes…..according to you there are more than One God, a “Most High” one (of which Yahshua is also called in Dan 7) and lesser ones. I assert that there exists only One God – YHWH. As for the “origins” and “attributes” part of the statement I agree entirely! The Bible does not differentiate between the Father and Son with regard to these. The Son perpetually existed “with” the Father in the beginning (John 1:1b) and every divine attribute the Father is described as having is likewise applied to the Son in scripture. Quote …. and in the process, creating another God entirely who is compared in glory (not being) with the one and only true GOD. John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Blessings

Greetings Dear Is,

[music4two]

Quote (Cubes @ Jan. 26 2007,23:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 27 2007,04:00) Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,04:13) One more point – whatever is not of faith is sin. I do not believe Jesus had a lack of faith for his own health and i know he did not sin. therefore i do not believe he was ever sick.:) Hi m42, Is sickness due to lack of faith then?? hmmm Hi Nick and M42, I agree w/ you, Nick. John 9:1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I* must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Being born blind is not “shalom” so may be considered as a form of defect in health as I am sure the man was glad to see the natural world.  Thus it was a blessing for him to be healed.  Yet, his blindness was not due to any sin relating to himself or his parents. Also, Jesus knew hunger and sorrow which is a big part of the condition of fallen man.  It would seem to me that for Jesus to be as one of us in order to be acquainted with our troubles, he'd have to have experienced pain too among other things. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Amen!

So do you believe that Adam and Eve did not feel hunger prior to the fall? I wonder why they had to eat or why God directed them to eat of specific trees in the Garden.

[david]

Quote

Hi david, You say “I would have hoped that after quoting me saying that, you'd try to prove or back up what you said. Instead, you question me. You say: “Tell me David what’s the difference between “First and Last“ (or Alpha and Omega) and “Almighty“?? Both are explicitly divine names, aren't they?” First, they are not really names, as we often think of names. Titles, maybe. Not personal names, for sure. The word “mighty” in itself isn't a title for anyone specific, as anyone can be mighty. Paul, you're “smart.” Smart, isn't a title. Notice something paul. It doesn't say that he is “first of everything, first of the universe, or anything like that. Does it? Well, does it? Looking at the context of those “ This is a forum where members have the right to use other than personal names and privacy in this matter is their right. Perhaps I have missed it but I do not recall this member that you have addressed by as Paul ever using a personal name for himself in this forum. If he has not and you have obtained the name by other means do you have his permission to do so? If not then you have seriously breached his rights and your behaviour is unacceptable.

Nick, everything you have said here is completely misplaced. I asked him if I could call him Paul. He said “yes.” I have not obtained the name by whatever methods you are referring to. I asked him his name. He told me. And I had asked if he minded if I called him that. He said yes. So I have “breached” nothing.

I accept your apology, which I'm sure you wish me.

David

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