The Trinity Doctrine

[Cubes]

Quote (sscott @ Dec. 27 2006,04:43)

1 In the beginning God created the heavenS and the earth.

Gen 1:1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  
Gen 1:2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  
Gen 1:3   And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  
Gen 1:4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I find it interesting that water and darkness were in existence before God spoke light into being.
This suggests that he created at least the darkness, space (?firmament) and water before “creating” the visible universe which we now behold…

[music4two]

Since the Trinity is being discussed in several places you will read this post in several threads.

Did the apostles ever teach that God could come down to live as a man? No! In fact they were utterly disgusted with that concept.

Acts 14 
8At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

 9This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

 10said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk.

 11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.”

 12And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.

 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.

 14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

 15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Notice the clear things said in this portion of scripture.
Paul and Barnabus are in Lystra. The native Lyconium population had mythology detailing the Gods coming to live as men on Earth.

Verses 8 through 10 – God heals a man through the hands of Paul.

Verses 11 through 13 – Witnessing the miracle the people of Lystra imediately conclude and act upon a major tennant of their mythogy. First in importance was the concept as follows – “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” After which they proposed names of Gods for Paul and Barnabus. The first thought was not who these gods were (Paul and Barnabus). The first thought was that their deity had become like a man and come to live with them. Pure Lyconium/Greek mythology.

Verses 14 and 15 – Paul and Barnabus react violently to the actions and words of the Lyconiuns. Tearing of ones robe is done to indicate complete abhorance and violent disgust at what is occuring. With this type of reaction the first thing the aposatles would do would be to counter and correct that which has disgusted them.
What do they say? “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you,– The first thing they do is correct the concept that God can come down and live as a man. They do not formost correct them for believing in Hermes and Zeus, but instead correct their concept of God becoming a man.
Paul continues – and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Paul calls what they are doing “vain things”. What is he refering to? “ Vain things” refers to “these things” which in return refers to the belief that God can come down to live as a man. Paul says they come to preach the good news that they would turn from this mythology to a living God. Then Paul goes on to say why the living God is different then those whom they worship. (remember the context is still worshipping Gods that come down to live as men) the kiving God “MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.” This seperates Him from those things which He created. He would not live as one of the things He created. He is above that.

As I have posted before and as the Trinitarians have ignored and refused to deal with:

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Instead of taking God at His word here, they teach that God became a man.
One of the most defining aspects of the Judeo-Christian God is His immutable nature. He cannot stop being God. He cannot give up any of His attribute withour ceasing to be God.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The Hebrew word here for man is “eesh”. It means man and is a contraction of the word en-oshe, meaning a human or man in general.
Over 90 times Jesus is refered to as the son of man. The word used in the NT for man is “anthropos” which can only mean human being. It does not mean a dual natured being. Not only does this denote his full humanity, but clearly shows he cannot be a God without contradicting these scriptures. Again they ignor these verses and claim that Jesus was a man and a God at the same time. In fact there is not one clear scripture that describes Jesus as being a dual natured being.
The very core and heart of being a member of the human race is our single human nature. When trinitarians make Jesus of a dual nature, they remove Him from the ranks of humanity and make him a diferent creature.
When the trinity doctrine proclaims things like God became a man or that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time, they are in clear contradiction of scripture and are not worshipping the God of the bible.

Where do these false concepts come from?
Through allusion and unclear scripture. By reading their doctrine into scripture. By taking scripture out of context. By not considering the vast difference in meaning between Hebrew culture and writing and that of the western world. Through 1800 years of false tradition. Through philosophy and mythology added to Christianity after the apostolic period. Through threats of death and banishment by a Sun worshipping Roman Emperior, Constantine. Through Constantine’s philosophies and concepts of Christ and God being of the same substance. Through hundreds of years of persecution by the Catholic Church established by Constantine.

MYTHOLOGY UPON ILLUSION UPON DISHONESTY UPON TRADITION UPON MISINTERPRETATION AND MISSUNDERSTANDING.

This is at the root and the core of the Trinity and Dual-natured Christ doctrine.

Those who push these doctrines are no longer scriptural but have become doctrinal. They are not about seeking truth in scripture, but about proving their doctrine at all cost. They ignor any proof that does not support their doctrine. They refuse to admit that these doctrines have no functionality toward the plan of God. Their doctrines do not work to draw you closer to Christ, but the concepts within them actually make Christ a different creature. He is no longer our brother and example. All of the accomplishments Christ did are at least partially attributable to Him being deity. He did it as a God! We are not God therefore we cannot do it! Their doctrine, in effect, scraps the plan of God and is anti Christianity/Anti-Christ.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,08:36)

Hi david, You say “I would have hoped that after quoting me saying that, you'd try to prove or back up what you said.  Instead, you question me.  You say: “Tell me David what’s the difference between “First and Last“ (or Alpha and Omega) and “Almighty“?? Both are explicitly divine names, aren't they?”  First, they are not really names, as we often think of names.  Titles, maybe.  Not personal names, for sure.  The word “mighty” in itself isn't a title for anyone specific, as anyone can be mighty.  Paul, you're “smart.”  Smart, isn't a title.   Notice something paul.  It doesn't say that he is “first of everything, first of the universe, or anything like that.  Does it?  Well, does it?  Looking at the context of those “ This is a forum where members have the right to use other than personal names and privacy in this matter is their right. Perhaps I have missed it but I do not recall this member that you have addressed by as Paul ever using a personal name for himself in this forum. If he has not and you have obtained the name by other means do you have his permission to do so? If not then you have seriously breached his rights and your behaviour is unacceptable.

Actually, Hebrews did not see names as identifiers. titles and personal names were not used to identify individuals but rahter were character traits or attributes of that individual. All names and titles in scripture have character traits associated with them. When Hebrews saw these terms they would interpret them in light of those traits.
For example — We of western culture see the words King David and see the title King and the personal name david.
Hebrews would interpret this into
King = the one who rules
David = one who is loved.
King David means one who rules and is loved.

Even the term “name” itself should be interpreted as Character trait.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Ps 2
“10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him”

Two beings.
God indwelling the Son.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Cubes @ Jan. 25 2007,15:51)

Quote (sscott @ Dec. 27 2006,04:43) 1 In the beginning God created the heavenS and the earth. Gen 1:1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.   Gen 1:2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   Gen 1:3   And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.   Gen 1:4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.   Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. I find it interesting that water and darkness were in existence before God spoke light into being. This suggests that he created at least the darkness, space (?firmament) and water before “creating” the visible universe which we now behold…

Hi cubes,
Genesis 1 is not the beginning as there were beings who watched God's work shown in Jb 38 etc. It is rather the start of the visible physical creation. Only that creation needs light as we know it.

[Cubes]

Thanks, Nick.
Besides, Moses wrote it after the fact and Genesis 1-3 may well be a summary of events, and not necessarily detailed information. Why should God give us the details if he chose to create us last after the last mammals? Who can blame him?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
All he wrote was truth but we tend to look at things in terms of what we see with physical eyes. But only earthly beings have physical eyes as only we here have bodies yet God and the angels see and the man in Hades could still see Lazarus and Abraham.

[music4two]

A curious side note — As to my post on Acts 14?
This is the only place in scripture (that I am aware of) where we see a clear reaction from the apostles on the concept of an incarnation!

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Clearly Satan tried to entice the apostles to accept worship and partake of human self glory in the same way as he had offered Christ in the desert temptations, and so to justify false religion and to cause accretion of christianity to greek idolatry.

Nothing changes
and now greek polytheistic idolatry
has become orthodoxy
by means of trinity.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,20:26)

Hi m42, Clearly Satan tried to entice the apostles to accept worship and partake of human self glory in the same way as he had offered Christ in the desert temptations, and so to justify false religion and to cause accretion of christianity to greek idolatry. Nothing changes and now greek polytheistic idolatry has become orthodoxy by means of trinity.

I have to agree on that point.

[music4two]

Let me rewrite my last —
I am not sure we totally agree since I am not sure we agree on the meaning of worship.
From a Hebrew understanding, worship was not restricted to God. Worship meant to bow down and give honor and respect to one in authority. For this reason did the disciples call Jesus Lord which means master or one in authority. This was worship based on his position/character and not on whether he was God or not. Even today when presented in the court of a King we bow to show respect. This, according to Hebrew thought, is worship.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
We are to respect all in authority over us.
But Christ defined true worship as being in spirit and in truth.
That is what we owe his father.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,21:29)

Hi m42, We are to respect all in authority over us. But Christ defined true worship as being in spirit and in truth. That is what we owe his father.

Again I am not sure if we agree on that. Unfortunately, I have seen far too many who have fallen prey to the mysticism of Greek philosophical concepts. Adding mystical, gnostic or dualistic ideas to the simple idea of giving honor and respect to God. Hebrews thought in very concrete, Earthy and natural ways. They believed God as they experianced Him not as they learned intelectual data about Him. Their God is one of relationship, not of data.
The Hebrews did not diferentiate between the “Spritual” and the “natural” realm. It was all one to them. God was part and parcel of all heaven and Earth. All of creation (including man) is an expression and repesentation of His nature and character.

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Men reborn from above are able to know and reach into the heart of God and by the help of the Spirit of God give to God in their temple the praise in the tongues of men and angels which is our proper sacrifice.

[music4two]

OK. I can agree with that as far as it goes.

[942767]

Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2007,07:13)

Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Notice what this scripture says: 'I am the first and the last.  And besides me there is no God.' It doesn't say: “I am the first and last and besides me there is no other first and last.  Those words apply only to me.” “In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.”–Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand, page  27, footnote When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah.  He is using a title properly given him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.–same source Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Look at this verse again.  Or for the first time maybe.   Imagine someone said this true statement: I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more. Maybe this person is the tallest largest widest person on the planet and he does in fact weigh the most.  (no one weighs more) That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide. WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more. How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God? We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc.  Angels are not false gods.   Look at the scripture.  Jehovah is the first and the last.  There was no one before him and He will exist forever.  He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible.  In this sense, no one can be compared to him. david

Hi David & WJ:

What God does reserve to himself in Isaiah 44:6 is the statement:  “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”.

Also, in Revelation 2:8 Jesus claims to be the First and the Last and says that he was dead.  Did God die?

This is what 1 Ti 2:17 says about God: “Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, THE ONLY WISE GOD, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Of course, Jesus now has immortality and cannot die any more, but he was dead.  GOD CAN NOT DIE BY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE.

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead”.

Granted there are some scriptures that hard to understand, but the overall plan of God for mankind is not.

He made man in His own image.  “And so it is written, THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A LIVING SOUL; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT”.  (1 Co. 15:45)

Jesus is God in that he is that man who became the EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON through the obedience of the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.  (Hebrews 1:3, 5:8-9, Hebrews 1:8-9, Phil. 2:8-9)

What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, and being subject to the same temptations as we are, He obeyed God suffering all that he did for little old me and you, and for whosoever chooses to be reconciled to God through him.  

He is worthy of all praise, honour, and Glory.  I personally can say that I am grateful to you Lord for all that you suffered in my behalf so that I could have the tremendous priviledge an honour of being a son of the MOST HIGH GOD.

Blessings to all of God's Children

[music4two]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2007,23:29)

Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2007,07:13) Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Notice what this scripture says: 'I am the first and the last.  And besides me there is no God.' It doesn't say: “I am the first and last and besides me there is no other first and last.  Those words apply only to me.” “In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.”–Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand, page  27, footnote When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah.  He is using a title properly given him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.–same source Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Look at this verse again.  Or for the first time maybe.   Imagine someone said this true statement: I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more. Maybe this person is the tallest largest widest person on the planet and he does in fact weigh the most.  (no one weighs more) That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide. WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more. How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God? We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc.  Angels are not false gods.   Look at the scripture.  Jehovah is the first and the last.  There was no one before him and He will exist forever.  He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible.  In this sense, no one can be compared to him. david Hi David & WJ: What God does reserve to himself in Isaiah 44:6 is the statement:  “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”. Also, in Revelation 2:8 Jesus claims to be the First and the Last and says that he was dead.  Did God die? This is what 1 Ti 2:17 says about God: “Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, THE ONLY WISE GOD, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Of course, Jesus now has immortality and cannot die any more, but he was dead.  GOD CAN NOT DIE BY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE. “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead”. Granted there are some scriptures that hard to understand, but the overall plan of God for mankind is not. He made man in His own image.  “And so it is written, THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A LIVING SOUL; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT”.  (1 Co. 15:45) Jesus is God in that he is that man who became the EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON through the obedience of the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.  (Hebrews 1:3, 5:8-9, Hebrews 1:8-9, Phil. 2:8-9) What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, and being subject to the same temptations as we are, He obeyed God suffering all that he did for little old me and you, and for whosoever chooses to be reconciled to God through him.   He is worthy of all praise, honour, and Glory.  I personally can say that I am grateful to you Lord for all that you suffered in my behalf so that I could have the tremendous priviledge an honour of being a son of the MOST HIGH GOD. Blessings to all of God's Children

I agree with almost everything you said, but I wonder about this part.
“What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, “

We know that Christ claims Mary as His mother and has Brothers. This iondicates a human genetic code. He was born of a woman and under the law.
He also must be of human origin to fullfill very specific prophecies such as being a decendent of David.

In order for Jesus to be fully human, as you said, the building blocks at His conception must be human. I have speculated that the life/sperm that Joined with Mary's egg was from a source which would guarantee it was without the genetic breakdown which began and continued after the fall.

what do you think?

[music4two]

For those that wish to teach disfunctional doctrine that does nothing to further the plan of God in themselves or others.

COMMENTARY

Don Atkin

THE SEARCH FOR BALANCED MATURITY

Speaking the truth in love, (we) may grow up in all things into Him who is the head – Christ. – Ephesians 4:15

Oh, to grow up in all things!

Most of the people whom I know are more mature in some things than others. I’m certain that this is also true of me, although I like to think of myself as “balanced.” (Who doesn’t?)

Here are some up-to-date conclusions from my current perspective:

Those who are passionate about prophecy, but not about people, are not yet balanced.

Those who are passionate about teaching, but not about people, are not yet balanced.

Those who are passionate about prayer, but not about people, are not yet balanced.

Those who are passionate about worship, but not about people, are not yet balanced.

Those who are passionate about ministry, but not about people, are not yet balanced. Those who are purpose-driven are not yet balanced.

“What?” Hang in there with me.

All of the above – prophecy, teaching, prayer, worship, ministry, purpose – are important. But God is our objective . . . to grow up in all things into Him should be our desire. We are to grow in prophecy, teaching, prayer, worship, ministry and purpose – in all things – into Him!

Prophecy, teaching, prayer, worship, ministry, and purpose are not a problem for Jesus Christ (Who is in us both to will and to do). His passion is people. He is love-driven.

God is love! God does not love things and use people; He loves people and uses things. Wherever this is reversed, there is not balanced maturity.

That which flows from the Throne, through us, will bear the marks of love and be pure, peaceable, and easily entreated.

We are to grow into His image and likeness. We are to be passionate about people!

Mature and balanced believers will be love driven in all they do.

[NickHassan]

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,00:00)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2007,23:29) Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2007,07:13) Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Notice what this scripture says: 'I am the first and the last.  And besides me there is no God.' It doesn't say: “I am the first and last and besides me there is no other first and last.  Those words apply only to me.” “In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.”–Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand, page  27, footnote When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah.  He is using a title properly given him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.–same source Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Look at this verse again.  Or for the first time maybe.   Imagine someone said this true statement: I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more. Maybe this person is the tallest largest widest person on the planet and he does in fact weigh the most.  (no one weighs more) That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide. WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more. How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God? We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc.  Angels are not false gods.   Look at the scripture.  Jehovah is the first and the last.  There was no one before him and He will exist forever.  He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible.  In this sense, no one can be compared to him. david Hi David & WJ: What God does reserve to himself in Isaiah 44:6 is the statement:  “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”. Also, in Revelation 2:8 Jesus claims to be the First and the Last and says that he was dead.  Did God die? This is what 1 Ti 2:17 says about God: “Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, THE ONLY WISE GOD, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Of course, Jesus now has immortality and cannot die any more, but he was dead.  GOD CAN NOT DIE BY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE. “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead”. Granted there are some scriptures that hard to understand, but the overall plan of God for mankind is not. He made man in His own image.  “And so it is written, THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A LIVING SOUL; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT”.  (1 Co. 15:45) Jesus is God in that he is that man who became the EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON through the obedience of the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.  (Hebrews 1:3, 5:8-9, Hebrews 1:8-9, Phil. 2:8-9) What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, and being subject to the same temptations as we are, He obeyed God suffering all that he did for little old me and you, and for whosoever chooses to be reconciled to God through him.   He is worthy of all praise, honour, and Glory.  I personally can say that I am grateful to you Lord for all that you suffered in my behalf so that I could have the tremendous priviledge an honour of being a son of the MOST HIGH GOD. Blessings to all of God's Children I agree with almost everything you said, but I wonder about this part. “What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, “ We know that Christ claims Mary as His mother and has Brothers. This iondicates a human genetic code. He was born of a woman and under the law. He also must be of human origin to fullfill very specific prophecies such as being a decendent of David. In order for Jesus to be fully human, as you said, the building blocks at His conception must be human. I have speculated that the life/sperm that Joined with Mary's egg was from a source which would guarantee it was without the genetic breakdown which began and continued after the fall. what do you think?

Hi m42,
I would say his genetic makeup was of one perfect and one damaged code from Mary. He was said to have siblings but only by those with the eyes of the world. Those that made such statements did not know God was his father.

[942767]

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 26 2007,00:00)

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 25 2007,23:29) Quote (david @ Jan. 24 2007,07:13) Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Notice what this scripture says: 'I am the first and the last.  And besides me there is no God.' It doesn't say: “I am the first and last and besides me there is no other first and last.  Those words apply only to me.” “In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.”–Revelation, It's Grand Climax at Hand, page  27, footnote When Jesus is presented by the title: “the First and the Last,” this doesn't in any way prove he is claiming equality with Jehovah or that he is Jehovah.  He is using a title properly given him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.–same source Quote Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Look at this verse again.  Or for the first time maybe.   Imagine someone said this true statement: I am tall and wide and besides me no one weighs more. Maybe this person is the tallest largest widest person on the planet and he does in fact weigh the most.  (no one weighs more) That does not mean that someone else can't be described as tall and wide. WHAT IT DOES MEAN is that no one else can be described as weighing more. How can we understand the expression: Besides me there is no God? We know that the Bible uses the word God with reference to other mighty ones, angels, human judges of Israel, etc.  Angels are not false gods.   Look at the scripture.  Jehovah is the first and the last.  There was no one before him and He will exist forever.  He is described as the king of eternity in the Bible.  In this sense, no one can be compared to him. david Hi David & WJ: What God does reserve to himself in Isaiah 44:6 is the statement:  “BESIDES ME THERE IS NO GOD”. Also, in Revelation 2:8 Jesus claims to be the First and the Last and says that he was dead.  Did God die? This is what 1 Ti 2:17 says about God: “Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, THE ONLY WISE GOD, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Of course, Jesus now has immortality and cannot die any more, but he was dead.  GOD CAN NOT DIE BY THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE. “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead”. Granted there are some scriptures that hard to understand, but the overall plan of God for mankind is not. He made man in His own image.  “And so it is written, THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS MADE A LIVING SOUL; THE LAST ADAM WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT”.  (1 Co. 15:45) Jesus is God in that he is that man who became the EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON through the obedience of the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.  (Hebrews 1:3, 5:8-9, Hebrews 1:8-9, Phil. 2:8-9) What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, and being subject to the same temptations as we are, He obeyed God suffering all that he did for little old me and you, and for whosoever chooses to be reconciled to God through him.   He is worthy of all praise, honour, and Glory.  I personally can say that I am grateful to you Lord for all that you suffered in my behalf so that I could have the tremendous priviledge an honour of being a son of the MOST HIGH GOD. Blessings to all of God's Children I agree with almost everything you said, but I wonder about this part. “What makes him so AWESOME is that he is a man no different than you an I except that He was not born of the sperm of man but of the Holy Spirit, “ We know that Christ claims Mary as His mother and has Brothers. This iondicates a human genetic code. He was born of a woman and under the law. He also must be of human origin to fullfill very specific prophecies such as being a decendent of David. In order for Jesus to be fully human, as you said, the building blocks at His conception must be human. I have speculated that the life/sperm that Joined with Mary's egg was from a source which would guarantee it was without the genetic breakdown which began and continued after the fall. what do you think?

Hi Music4two:

A man like you and I were born of a human father's sperm, but of Jesus the angel of the Lord spoke to Joseph saying, “fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.  I see no sperm here.

This would make Jesus' body God's own flesh and blood.

Of course, he was born of a woman, that is the virgin woman, Mary.  “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons”.  (Galatians 4:4-5)

Romans 1:3 speaking of Jesus states: “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which WAS MADE OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  Mary was born of the sperm of David that his lineage.  And so, Jesus said he was the Son of man.

“While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, the son of David.  He saith unto them, how then doth David in the spirit call him Lord saying, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy foot stool?”

You say:

“I have speculated that the life/sperm that joined with Mary's egg was from a source which would guarantee it was without the genetic breakdown which began and continued after the fall”.

Well, I don't want to speculate on this.  We know that God was his Father, and so he could not inherit anything that would impair his body from Him, but his mother was human, and so perhaps he could have inherited something from her.  I don't know enough about what takes place at conception relative to whose blood he would have had to make this judgment.  Perphaps you can enlighten me on that subject.  I'd like to know.

Romans 8:10 states: “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Sp
irit is life because of righteousness”.  And so, we know that sin is detrimental to our bodies and is causing them to deteriorate.  Jesus speaking to a man that he had healed states: Behold, thou are made whole; sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee”.

Wether or not Jesus suffered any sickness himself, I don't know.  I know that he did not sin.  We know also that he died at the age of 33 1/2.  We know that he was born into this world an infant and he aged.  Whether or not his body was deteriorating, I don't know.

I am not sure that I've answered your question.  If not, please explain to me what you are saying.  I am teachable.  Always, my prayer is, “Father if I am teaching any thing that is not your Word or doing any thing that is not your will, correct me”.   Any Father that loves his son, will do just that otherwise he really does not love him.  God loves me and I know that in many ways but also, because He has corrected me many a time.

God Bless

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