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Hi MS,
But not stretch a little, add a little.
The Spirit does not speak on His own initiative.
There is nothing new but more can be shown from what is written.Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 23 2007,07:31) Isaiah 9 (LXX)
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulders; and his name is called the Messenger {aggelos} of Great Council
Great Counsel
NOT Great CouncilCounsel not Council!
Big Difference!
Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 23 2007,12:02) Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 23 2007,07:31) Isaiah 9 (LXX)
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulders; and his name is called the Messenger {aggelos} of Great Council
Great Counsel
NOT Great CouncilCounsel not Council!
Big Difference!
typoQuote When did Jesus exaltly become God? He worked hard, He was tempted, praise him for he has come and suffered for you! and all men!
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Charity
Jesus didnt become God!
Because he was/is God!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **The mighty God**, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Honour the Son as you Honour the Father!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2007,05:23) Quote You state – this is proof in th OT that Jesus and God were one from the beginning.
Gen 1:
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Gen 1:
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.One simple question — who is the our? you assume based on your doctrine that it is Jesus and God and maybe the Holy Spirit too. Not necessarily true. there is no clear evidence that it was Jesus at all. Just your assumption.
there ae several possibilities –
1. God lives outside of our linear time frame and could be speaking down through time to Jesus, but not neccesarily at the time of creation.
2. God could be talking to the Hosts of heaven, who play an active role in making us like Him?
3. (and this one I agree is stretching it) God could be speaking in a royal sense. Personages of royality often speak of themselves in the plural sense.The truth is there is no actual proof the the us or the our in Genesis is refering to a trinity.
As to John 1 — You continue to hold to a deffinition of “word” kogos that does not fit the vast majority of scripture. By my count logos can only be forced into a Jesus translation 7 times out of the 340 instances of the word's use. that means that the chance that logos means Jesus is about 4%. There's good odds for you!
Simple question — Do you deny that Jesus is a man?
M42
You obviously dont read my post but pick out what you want to hear.
Do you deny that Jesus is a man?
That has got to be the Joke of the century to ask me that question!
Maybe ypu think the question is a joke but you sure avoided answering it. I am asking you to define biblically the nature of Christ.It seems you play the avoidance game very well. You claim that the us and our recorded in Genesis refers to persons of a triune Godhead and I ask you a simple question as to proof for your claim.
I ask you to show me by what authority do you change the meaning of Logos in 7 places to mean something different then every else in scripture. You ignored that question too.
I ask you to show me a clear biblical definition of the nature of Christ and you ignor that too.
I have in the past ask you to show me in what way your doctrine functions to make us more like Christ. (I am not speaking of an intelectual position, but actual ways in which it builds faith or gives examples we can follow or shows a clear path that we as human beings can follow.) Without that, everything you are teaching is only intelectual exercise and vain philosophy with no functional reality.
I would ask these questions of anyone who has shown a willingness to read their doctrine into scripoture.
A willingness to use a made up deffinition of a word that fits only 4% of 340 times it is used in scripture.
A willingness to ignor the primary meaning of said word as taught and recorded in all Greek language and biblical dictionaries.An unwillingness to show any proof whatsoever, other then protecting their doctrine, for deveating from the normal scriptural usage of this word.
You say…
Quote Do you deny that Jesus is a man? My response…
Quote
M42You obviously dont read my post but pick out what you want to hear.
That has got to be the Joke of the century to ask me that question!
M42
If you were new on this site I suppose I would. But you hve seen possibly hundreds of my Post.
So I am not wanting to go in circles with you on this issue.
I have been very plain about the Nature of Jesus as a man. Thats why I laugh when you ask me a question like “do I deny Jesus is a man?”.
No I dont deny Jesus was a man.
Heb 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.Rom 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:Phil 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
But if I ask you the Question…Do you believe Jesus is the Word/God in the flesh?
You would say no Jesus is not God.
You see I have read your post.
Blessings
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2007,15:03) Quote When did Jesus exaltly become God? He worked hard, He was tempted, praise him for he has come and suffered for you! and all men!
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Charity
Jesus didnt become God!
Because he was/is God!
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **The mighty God**, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Honour the Son as you Honour the Father!
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.He’s looking for a man MAN
We have a Book with 7 sealing’s like a book wrapped with wrappers sealing it
Each wrapper an eventUntil the Book is opened and the word of God comes to the earth
His election was before the seals were opened
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Then The word of God came in the flesh, to lead and feed the children of God
Effect of vision over decadesDeath reined from Adam to Moses
And why
And who stopped it there? God My God
God is the God of The Living not the dead
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2007,19:18) Hi charity,
Somehow to W, Jesus is man, and our God who has a God.
Mystery Babylon.
FOR What motive???To such extent???
To mould the living God as if a potter???
Quote Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. No mortal man was worthy.
Hence, only God could be our Saviour.
Jesus God in the flesh.
Honour him as you honour the Father!
Rev 5:
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
No one but God and the Word/God the Lamb Jesus who was with God in the beginning could share this throne and this Honour and Glory.Heb 1:
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Psa 2:7 Acts 13:33 Heb 5:5 Psa 89:26,27
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Psa 104:4
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psa 45:6
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psa 45:7
10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psa 102:25
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Psa 102:26Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.Quote Hi charity,
Somehow to W, Jesus is man, and our God who has a God.
Mystery Babylon.NH
Then explain John 1:1 And Heb 1:8.
This is in your Bible which you say you hold to.
Hi charity,
If you accept the concept of God as not the loving Father but some sort of icon trinity then scripture must be moulded to give substance to this theory.Thus the Son cannot be a true son. God Himself must come in the flesh. Jesus must be fully God and not emptied of anything and all his claims of dependance on a greater Being ignored.
Evidence must sought of him being treated as God and that is sufficient as proof he is. What he says about himself cannot be taken as read but instead must be analysed for clues of hidden meanings. Having died God must raise himself.
The Spirit must be also said to be another person because that is what the theory states and we must hold the line and give no inch to truth. The third person deity question shall be largely ignored because this aspect has even less support and is a weakness that could be exploited by to those who would dare question tradition.
Of course this has little practical value but that is not relevant because man will be proven right over scripture. We cannot follow God and do not have a mediator with God. Rebellion against God and His Spirit will be fully manifest and man will be glorified.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2007,19:41) Quote Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. No mortal man was worthy.
Hence, only God could be our Saviour.
Jesus God in the flesh.
quote]Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.God took care of it by preserved seed?
2Sa 22:17 He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
Psa 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
Hi W,
To what purpose would explaining every verse fully be helpful?
Would it build up our pride and independant spirit?
We are not here to tick boxes but to follow Christ.
Following Christ is not a matter of full knowledge.
But there are vital simple things to grasp as children.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2007,19:41) Quote Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. No mortal man was worthy.
Hence, only God could be our Saviour.
Jesus God in the flesh.
Honour him as you honour the Father!
Rev 5:
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
No one but God and the Word/God the Lamb Jesus who was with God in the beginning could share this throne and this Honour and Glory.Heb 1:
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Psa 2:7 Acts 13:33 Heb 5:5 Psa 89:26,27
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Psa 104:4
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psa 45:6
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psa 45:7
10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psa 102:25
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Psa 102:26Jn 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.
Hi W,
Jesus was a man as you agreed.
Jesus was a mortal man-he died.
He was worthy as the Lamb of God overcame.Do not deny the Son, the holy child of God.
You do not need to say HENCE as God had a plan better than yours that did not include having to come Himself as flesh.
He sent His beloved Son and manifested in that glorious golden vessel.Quote Hi W,
Jesus was a man as you agreed.
Jesus was a mortal man-he died.
He was worthy as the Lamb of God overcame.Do not deny the Son, the holy child of God.
You do not need to say HENCE as God had a plan better than yours that did not include having to come Himself as flesh.
He sent His beloved Son and manifested in that glorious golden vessel.NH
Again you confuse the deity of Christ with his humanity!
Read the book!
Quote Hi W,
Jesus was a man as you agreed.
Jesus was a mortal man-he died.
He was worthy as the Lamb of God overcame.Do not deny the Son, the holy child of God.
You do not need to say HENCE as God had a plan better than yours that did not include having to come Himself as flesh.
He sent His beloved Son and manifested in that glorious golden vessel.Did Jesus cease to be God?
Quote Hi W,
To what purpose would explaining every verse fully be helpful?
Would it build up our pride and independant spirit?
We are not here to tick boxes but to follow Christ.
Following Christ is not a matter of full knowledge.
But there are vital simple things to grasp as children.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God.NH
How can you follow Christ unless you understand the scriptures?
You claim to follow him and the scriptures yet you will not give your interpretation of 2 scriptures.
In fact you have never explained your view of these.
Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psa 45:6Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hi W,
Is God lower than the angels?
God is never less than God
Men are but reborn men are above them.
So the Son of God was emptied of all that made him greater than the angels in the beginning to be body, soul and spirit as we are.
In the house of God his vessel was was of greater substance while our vessel is of earth.2Tim 2
” 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. '
But he was still a vessel, emptied of divine power and glory, so he could be filled from above and be above the angels in God and in the power of God forever.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 24 2007,02:11) Quote Hi W,
Jesus was a man as you agreed.
Jesus was a mortal man-he died.
He was worthy as the Lamb of God overcame.Do not deny the Son, the holy child of God.
You do not need to say HENCE as God had a plan better than yours that did not include having to come Himself as flesh.
He sent His beloved Son and manifested in that glorious golden vessel.Did Jesus cease to be God?
Hi W,Jesus was never [the Most High, Almighty, Living…] GOD, so how could he have become or ceased to be GOD?
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever! The same Jesus. So we cannot say he became a man without saying that GOD –who the scriptures say is NOT a man — became a man.
That's a predicament, no? It goes against a clear nature of GOD to say he was ever a man. Just like the “no man has seen GOD” scriptures, and the GOD IS ONE scriptures too…
On the other hand, if we understand “God” to be a title of authority which the Almighty Most High God confers upon others of his choosing… such as “to whom the word the LORD came,” then we are in harmony with scripture.
Please resolve the discrepancy of whether or not God is or has ever been a man, three, or been seen for us…since we agree that GOD alone is GOD, and no other.
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