The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi, Satan has frustrated the work of the church in teaching, by causing it to get stuck at the roadblock, the biggest diversion, trinity theory, which attacks the very nature of God Himself that the church tries to lead men into relationship with. Very clever.

Yes satan has caused road blocks. But the confusion is in yourself.

You try to smoke screen the scriptures that look you in the face and you dont know what to do with them.

So lets fabricate an Arian view. Because you say God cant be One with the Son.

Even though Jesus came to show us God is plural and yet One.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:26
And God said, **Let us** make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

See the similarities in these scriptures.

Jesus said I and my Father are One. Plural but singular.

One day your knee will also bow, and it will be confessing Jesus as Lord to the Glory of the Father.

Give the same honour to the Son as the Father for this is his commandmet!

I Jn 4:
1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ [Word/God] is come in the flesh is of God:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ [Word/God] is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The Apostles and followers of Jesus now full well what it meant for a man to claim that he came down from heaven to do his Fathers will, and claim he could lay down his life and take it again.

This is why they speak of the Church that Jesus built as the Church of God.

This was not the work of a mere mortal like us who has his Spirit living in us.

They knew that only God could make the claims that Jesus made.

They understood that he was One with the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, If he was God he was an empty God [phil 2]? What is an empty God? Can God empty Himself and remain the unchangeable God? No Christ is the Son of God. He is the same yesterday today and forever who partook of flesh. Keep it simple.

NH

NH

Are you listening to your self.

Can you empty yourself and let God fill you? Yes.

But you would not cease to be human.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So God emptied Himself and partook of flesh becoming less than the angels?
You seriouly err in defence of man's teachings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, So God emptied Himself and partook of flesh becoming less than the angels? You seriouly err in defence of man's teachings.

Jesus left the Glory he shared with the Father and came in the form of a servant, man.

For to him being born in a human body was taking on the form of a servant. For a time he was a little lower than the Angels but the Angels were not better.

Heb 2:
5: For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10: For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Then after he done the will of the Father even to the death of the cross, he was exalted back to his rightful place with the Father at his side as in John 1 and given the Glory that he had shared with the Father as God.

Here you see the Angels were not better.

Hebrews 1:
4: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6: And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is the Truth!

[music4two]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2007,15:27)

Quote I am curious as to how you define a “divine name”? By what criteria do you determine what is a divine name? Am I mistaken, or did Jesus say He was the first and last after He was in heaven and one with YHWH? M42 When did yashua “become One” with YHWH?

I am not sure when Jesus became one with God.
There are no “clear” scriptures declaring a oneness between Jesus and God untill the gospels.

We know Jesus grew in at least some areas?
Luke 2:52
And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
(an interesting side note – If Jesus is God how would he grow in favor with God? Would He not have perfect favor from the beginning?)
At His Baptism?
 22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
Perhaps at the beginning of His public ministry?
Luke 4 
17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
    18″THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
         BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
         HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
         AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
         TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
    19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

 20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Could being one with God be dependent on being perfect? If so, it happened some time during or after Jesus suffered.
Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
(side note – Does a God suffer or need perfected?)
Perhaps after He was tempted?
Hebrews 2:18
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
(side note – Is a God tempted?)
After He learned obediance?
Hebrews 5:8
Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
(side note – Does a God need to learn obediance?)

What is the oneness Jesus has with God?

Jesus is speaking in John 17

 12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
————————————————————-
Remember that the Hebrew cultural understanding of “name” = character. Jesus kept them in God’s character (name) the same character that was given to him.
—————————————————————-
 13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.

 14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
—————————————————————-
Word=logos — I have given them your motives, your intentions, your plan.
—————————————————————
 15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

 16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
—————————————————————
Youy motive, intentions and plan is truth
—————————————————————
 18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
—————————————————————
“As you sent me” in the same way, as humanity, not as a second person of the trinity. Not a God becoming a man.
————————————————————–
 19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

 20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
————————————————————-
Jesus specifies his prayer includes all humanity.
In the same way Jesus and His Father are one so are we to be one with them.
————————————————————-
 22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
————————————————————-
How are we to be one? Like Jesus and God are one.
Two ways to see this verse –
1. If Jesus is saying that the brethren are to be one with eachother in the same way that Jesus and God are one. Then the brethren are to be part of some kind of Godhead? A unity of deity? According to trinitarian belief the oneness of Jesus and the Father is based on a unity of persons of God/deity.
2. If Jesus is simply stating that He is the example of humanity’s future, because He is human, then we are to attain the same oneness with our mutual father/God as Jesus did. this would seem to fit scripture —

John 13:15
“For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.

1 Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
1 Corinthians 15:20
[ The Order of Resurrection ] But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Is there a difference between the oneness Jesus had with God while in the flesh and the oneness He now enjoys in heaven?

1 Cor 15
 39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.

 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

 42So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL ” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

 48As is the earthy, so also ar
e those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.

 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

 55″O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”

 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

It would seem that we, like Jesus, shall be changed. Does that effect the nature of being one with God?
Is the position that Jesus holds in heaven unique? Absolutely for the following reasons.
1. He is the only begotten son of God
2. He is the literal heir to the thrown of God
3. He is the heir to the thrown of David
4. He never partook of the knowledge of good and evil/sin
5 He is the firstfruits of all the resurected.
6. He was given all power in heaven and earth by God.

Does this make Jesus’ position in heaven unigue? Absolutely! Does it make him God? Nope!
Jesus not only carries the name/character of God but also all the power that pertains to ruling the heavens and the Earth.

This can also answer the questions of Jesus claiming to be the Alpha and Omega.

There was a work for Jesus to accompolish. When He did so he won the right to sit on the thrown of heaven and Earth.

! Cor 15

 20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Jesus is the mediator between God and man. He speaks for us and God. during His time on Earth, Jesus spoke propheticly. God spoke through Him. Does that still occur? Don’t know.
Untill all his enemies are under His feet He commands all in heaven and Earth. At that time He places Himself and all of Creation back under subjection to the one God.

Scripture clearly states that when Jesus has put allhis enemies under His feet He will place himself in subjection to God and turns the kingdom over to him. this does not depict a co-equal prson of God. this depicts someone appointed by God into a position of great authority.
Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

Acts 10:42
“And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Hebrews 2:7
” YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Hebrews 3
1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.

By the way, is God confused?
In the very context of Revelation 1 God through John says this –
 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood–

 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Jesus Christ has a God and a Father. How can Jesus then 2 verses later claim to be God? Definitive proof cannot be comtradictory. Therefore the Alpha-Omega verses in Rev 1 cannot used as definitive proof. Honestly I cannot explain the Alpha verses. Whatever these verses mean, the meaning cannot contradict clear verses. Especially ones in the same context.

Some on here have demanded clear scripture that states Jesus is not God.

for those who claim God became a man —
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1 Samuel 15:29
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Compare these to the approx 90 times Jesus is called the son of man and the dozens of times He is called a man.

It cannot be any clearer.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2007,00:20)

Quote Hi W, So God emptied Himself and partook of flesh becoming less than the angels? You seriouly err in defence of man's teachings. Jesus left the Glory he shared with the Father and came in the form of a servant, man. For to him being born in a human body was taking on the form of a servant. For a time he was a little lower than the Angels but the Angels were not better. Heb 2: 5: For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10: For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Then after he done the will of the Father even to the death of the cross, he was exalted back to his rightful place with the Father at his side as in John 1 and given the Glory that he had shared with the Father as God. Here you see the Angels were not better. Hebrews 1: 4: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5: For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6: And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7: And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. This is the Truth!

Hi W,
If God became a servant whom was He serving?
Himself?
Wake up!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

I am not sure when Jesus became one with God. There are no “clear” scriptures declaring a oneness between Jesus and God untill the gospels.

M42

Not so!

Gen 1:
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Jn 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

You say….

Quote

We know Jesus grew in at least some areas? Luke 2:52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. (an interesting side note – If Jesus is God how would he grow in favor with God? Would He not have perfect favor from the beginning?) At His Baptism? 22and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.” Perhaps at the beginning of His public ministry? Luke 4 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,    18″THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,         BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.         HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,         AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,         TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,    19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”

And herein is the Problem. Men cant reconcile how Jesus the Word could leave heaven and be born a man and still be the Lord from heaven.

Jesus said it himself.

Jn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So Jesus was not Just the man that was born of the virgin Mary, but is the Lord from heaven.

45: And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46: Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first Adam was earthy like you and I. The second Adam is the Lord from heaven, a quickening Spirit

Jesus committed no sin as a child. How is this? No mere man could do that.

This is the whole point of the Gospel is that NO MAN could save us but GOD himself.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Many on this sight believe that Jesus was born again at the Jordan or that something very mysterious happend to him.

What happened is the Spirit of God in the form of a Dove descended and rest upon him and the Father spoke and said “This is my beloved Son in him I am well pleased.”

There is no indication of Jesus being born again or recieving Power or being filled with the Spirit here.

The key to his baptism is Jesus own words…

Matt 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The Father wanted there to be no doubt that Jesus was sent!

Men try to reason just as they did in Jesus day.

How can God be in a man?

Is there any thing to hard for YHWH?

I Tim 3:16
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, If God became a servant whom was He serving? Himself? Wake up!

There is your smoke screen again!

God = Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The the Son Left his Fathers side and humbled himself even to the death of the cross.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

NH

God is plural and yet one!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“This is the whole point of the Gospel is that NO MAN could save us but GOD himself.”

Are we so IMPORTANT that God must become a man, die and raise Himself?

Vain and foolish logic.
We are dust and grass.
God did not come but instead sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, You say “This is the whole point of the Gospel is that NO MAN could save us but GOD himself.” Are we so IMPORTANT thet God must become a man, die and raise Himself? Vain and foolish logic. We are dust and grass. God did not come but instead sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

NH

You just said it!

God sent his only begotten Son the Word/God.

God was in Christ, and Christ was in God!

One God NH!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God was in Christ not as Christ.
A glorious vessel for the treasure.
You do not need to add man's trimmings.
That type of folly led to the trinity fabrication.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hello

Jesus the Lord from Heaven!

Gen 1:
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Jn 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And herein is the Problem. Men cant reconcile how Jesus the Word could leave heaven and be born a man and still be the Lord from heaven.

Jesus said it himself.

Jn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So Jesus was not Just the man that was born of the virgin Mary, but is the Lord from heaven.

45: And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46: Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first Adam was earthy like you and I. The second Adam is the Lord from heaven, a quickening Spirit

Jesus committed no sin as a child. How is this? No mere man could do that.

This is the whole point of the Gospel is that NO MAN could save us but GOD himself.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Many on this sight believe that Jesus was born again at the Jordan or that something very mysterious happend to him.

What happened is the Spirit of God in the form of a Dove descended and rest upon him and the Father spoke and said “This is my beloved Son in him I am well pleased.”

There is no indication of Jesus being born again or recieving Power or being filled with the Spirit here.

The key to his baptism is Jesus own words…

Matt 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The Father wanted there to be no doubt that Jesus was sent!

Men try to reason just as they did in Jesus day.

How can God be in a man?

Is there any thing to hard for YHWH?

[942767]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 21 2007,02:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,22:57) Hi W, I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD. Here: Revelation 1:17 – When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, Here: Revelation 2:8 – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this and here: Revelation 22:12,13 – “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.“ Only One “First and Last” – YHWH: Isaiah 44:6 – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Isaiah 48:12,13 – “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; There is no plainer way for Yahshua to call Himself “God” than what we find recorded in Revelation. ……or do we have two First and Lasts?

Hi Isaiah 1:18 and the rest of the trinitarians:

The title First and Last can be applied to God and to Jesus as I have already posted.  The scriptures explain why each say they are the First and the Last if you will read them and not take them out of context.

How can you make the assertion that Jesus called himself God when if he did that he would be contradicting what God said in Matthew 16:13-17.  God has revealed to all of humanity that Jesus is “The Christ the Son of the Living God”.  Why is it necessary to keep trying to add to this revelation?

Also, 1 Co. 8:6 states: “But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, by whom are all things, and we by him”.

This verse of scripture plainly states that there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER.   How does the Greek read relative to this passage of scripture?  Does it negate this?

I'm praying for God's best for you.

[music4two]

You state – this is proof in th OT that Jesus and God were one from the beginning.
Gen 1:
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

One simple question — who is the our? you assume based on your doctrine that it is Jesus and God and maybe the Holy Spirit too. Not necessarily true. there is no clear evidence that it was Jesus at all. Just your assumption.
there ae several possibilities –
1. God lives outside of our linear time frame and could be speaking down through time to Jesus, but not neccesarily at the time of creation.
2. God could be talking to the Hosts of heaven, who play an active role in making us like Him?
3. (and this one I agree is stretching it) God could be speaking in a royal sense. Personages of royality often speak of themselves in the plural sense.

The truth is there is no actual proof the the us or the our in Genesis is refering to a trinity.

As to John 1 — You continue to hold to a deffinition of “word” kogos that does not fit the vast majority of scripture. By my count logos can only be forced into a Jesus translation 7 times out of the 340 instances of the word's use. that means that the chance that logos means Jesus is about 4%. There's good odds for you!

Simple question — Do you deny that Jesus is a man?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

You state – this is proof in th OT that Jesus and God were one from the beginning. Gen 1: 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1: 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. One simple question — who is the our? you assume based on your doctrine that it is Jesus and God and maybe the Holy Spirit too. Not necessarily true. there is no clear evidence that it was Jesus at all. Just your assumption. there ae several possibilities – 1. God lives outside of our linear time frame and could be speaking down through time to Jesus, but not neccesarily at the time of creation. 2. God could be talking to the Hosts of heaven, who play an active role in making us like Him? 3. (and this one I agree is stretching it) God could be speaking in a royal sense. Personages of royality often speak of themselves in the plural sense. The truth is there is no actual proof the the us or the our in Genesis is refering to a trinity. As to John 1 — You continue to hold to a deffinition of “word” kogos that does not fit the vast majority of scripture. By my count logos can only be forced into a Jesus translation 7 times out of the 340 instances of the word's use. that means that the chance that logos means Jesus is about 4%. There's good odds for you! Simple question — Do you deny that Jesus is a man? M42 You obviously dont read my post but pick out what you want to hear.

Do you deny that Jesus is a man?

That has got to be the Joke of the century to ask me that question!

[Morning Star]

In the Distant past only God existed. Within God and part of God was the Logos.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Then God’s plan came manifested itself. God beget a Son. From the Father proceeded the Son and the Son became a separate sentient being. Together the Father made all things through the Son.

Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

At the Tower of Babel God divided the nations. Abraham was called out of the people. Jesus was given special charge over the nation of Israel that would come from this man’s seed.

Deuteronomy 32
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God. 9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

The Son always revealed his Invisible Father whom nobody has ever seen or heard. He personally led his people he was given charge of out of captivity. The Son WAS NOT an angel like the other sons of God, for he was unique and the only begotten. However, the Son was a messenger while revealing his Father and at times bore the title angel.

John 1
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Exodus 14
19Then the angel of God who was going before the host of Israel moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them, 20coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel.

1 Corinthians 10
1I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ

God spoke through the prophets through his Spirit and inspired them to record prophecies concerning a Messiah and Savior. God would send one who would not fail in bringing the fallen powers and dominion to destruction. He sent his Son.

John 3
16″For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Isaiah 9 (LXX)
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulders; and his name is called the Messenger {aggelos} of Great Council

John 1
9The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[NickHassan]

Hi MS,
The Word was not a plan but a word, and was not in God, but with God.
The Son was not an angel nor called an angel and was not sent till he came as the Son of Man.
We are not meant to make up bits and fit them where we please but abide in the scriptures.

[Morning Star]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2007,08:01)

Hi MS, The Word was not a plan but a word, and was not in God, but with God. The Son was not an angel nor called an angel and was not sent till he came as the Son of Man. We are not meant to make up bits and fit them where we please but abide in the scriptures.

The Son was not a plan, however, the son was Part of the Fathers plan.

Show me scripture and verse that the rest is not correct instead of just telling me to abide in scripture.

[charity]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2007,22:58)

Quote he said he who loves God is my brother sister mother But God is not brother head spin blessing charity Charity To be sure Jesus was a man. But is that all you see him as a mere man like us?

When did Jesus exaltly become God?

He worked hard, He was tempted, praise him for he has come and suffered for you! and all men!

Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

……….

[Morning Star]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2007,08:01)

Hi MS, The Word was not a plan but a word, and was not in God, but with God. The Son was not an angel nor called an angel and was not sent till he came as the Son of Man. We are not meant to make up bits and fit them where we please but abide in the scriptures.

You are right we arent just suppost to make up bits

However, we are to search the scriptures here a little and there a little.

Whom will He teach knowledge? And whom will He make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little (Isaiah 28:9-10).

[Author]

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