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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 22 2007,07:04) Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2007,06:39) Is 1:18, I'm wondering if you've been here: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/john1files.htm
I can't believe that you haven't. But I'm just wondering.
No, I don't think so.
I am curious as to how you define a “divine name”? By what criteria do you determine what is a divine name?Am I mistaken, or did Jesus say He was the first and last after He was in heaven and one with YHWH?
Quote I am curious as to how you define a “divine name”? By what criteria do you determine what is a divine name? Am I mistaken, or did Jesus say He was the first and last after He was in heaven and one with YHWH?
M42
When did yashua “become One” with YHWH?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 22 2007,07:53) Quote Is 1:18, I can't help but wonder how what you posted proves in any way that Jesus Christ is “plainly claimed to be God.”
If I showed you a verse where Yahshua unmistakably identifies Himself as “The Almighty” would you argue that Yahshua wasn’t claiming to be God? I think not. On second thought you undoubtedly would, although you would have no grounds to do so. Tell me David what’s the difference between “First and Last“ (or Alpha and Omega) and “Almighty“?? Both are explicitly divine names, aren't they?Quote Of course, these scriptures only say that he is the first and the last.
Yes they do…although I wonder how YHWH feels about you using the words “only” and “First and Last” in the same sentence. Is YHWH only the Almighty? Or only the Most High? It's curious how you intuitively muster enthusiasm for The Father, as apposed to the Son, when they are presented in an identical fashion in scripture. It appears that in your earnest attempt to defend what you believe is the true God, to delineate Him from the Son (in respect to His essence of being), you, in relative terms, cast aside Yahshua, assigning Him tempered honour and respect, which, of course, is in marked contrast to the doxology used by the NT writers. But your knee will bow too David.Quote I don't remember who it was with, but not too long ago, I had someone on your side explaining to me that just because the same expression applies to two beings, does not make them the same. I remember being shocked by this, because it's usually me saying that to them.
It’s not my position, so I’m not sure of the relevance of this……Quote Jesus is called apostle. Jesus apostles are called apostles. They are not the same. Yet the word applies to both. What does it prove?
Non sequitur. The word “apostle” is not a divine name.Quote Anyway, let's look at those scriptures and some others.
Okay, let’s look…Quote REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des.”We notice that being the “first and last” is connected to him being the living one who became dead, and him now having the keys of death and hades.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood—”ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.””
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. This means that he was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)COLOSSIANS 1:18
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, we could guess that Jesus being the “first” means that he is God, but it doesn't say this. We do know 2 things:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in being the first to be resurrected from the dead.
2. The preceeding statement says that he is the living one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” Based on the context and these other scriptures, and with no direct evidence to the contrary, we have to believe that Jesus is the first in this respect.How is he the “last”? That too is covered in the rest of the statement.
It says that he had been given the keys of death and of hades. Jehovah had resurrected Jesus.JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ WHO BECAME DEAD AND CAME TO LIFE [again],”JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”It seems that Jehovah resurrected Jesus and that Jehovah has entrusted power of judging to Jesus, the power to resurrect. Jesus say: “I will resurrect him on the last day” and “I am the ressurection and the life…”
Jesus now has the keys of death and hades.
So I believe he was the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus.This explanation looks at the words and ideas surrounding the actual phrase: first and the last and it also looks at other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the first. It is not based on the idea that I want something to be true. This is what the Bible says. And as far as I can tell, it carries much stronger evidence.
Interesting theory David, but there is a critical problem for you:You have already affirmed that YHWH is the “First and the Last”, citing this, among many verses, as being spoken by the Father of Yahshua:
Revelation 22:13 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
So its evident that you are perfectly happy to accept that “First and Last” is a title of deity when applied to the father, but insist that its not that case with the Son. You treat the appellation as a unit when it’s the Father but, without any justification (other than your Watchtower presupposition), break it down to what you perceive as it’s individual components when the Son identifies Himself in like manner. Do you not see an inconsistency here? I can. Your interpretation demonstrates the desperate measures some are driven to in attempting to explain away a blatant claim of deity by Yahshua. It might even be the ultimate exemplar.
Quote But what you say about those scriptures plainly showing Jesus claiming to be God, that's just not in those scriptures.
Assuming that you acknowledge that the “Lord of Hosts” is the only true God, does YHWH plainly claim to be the “God” in this verse?:Isaiah 44:6 – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
If not, what exactly does YHWH mean by the application of descriptive “First and Last”?
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
No one has been able to show us a scripture where Jesus claimed to be God.
No deceit was found in his mouth so he did not leave a trail of hidden messages that made such claims surrepticiously. He did not speak with a forked tongue but was truth and spoke plainly.
Those who love the da vinci code may waste their lives trying to read between the lines in search of such evidence but to what avail? He was the image of God and a vessel for God and so there will be times when God is revealed through this glorious vessel but it cannot prove that he is also the contents of his own vessel
What he stated very plainly and was given the best possible support for was that he is
THE SON OF GOD.
Why not just believe him?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2007,17:51) What he stated very plainly and was given the best possible support for was that he is
THE SON OF GOD.
What he stated very plainly and was given the best possible support for was that he is
The FIRST AND THE LAST, the ALPHA AND OMEGA…Why not just believe him?
Quote Why not just believe him?
I do believe Him. If you can find a quote where I have ever denied this then please produce it, if not kindly stop this campaign of misrepresenting me!Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 22 2007,17:51)
What he stated very plainly and was given the best possible support for was that he is
THE SON OF GOD.What he stated very plainly and was given the best possible support for was that he is
The FIRST AND THE LAST, the ALPHA AND OMEGA…Why not just believe him?
Quote
Why not just believe him?I do believe Him. If you can find a quote where I have ever denied this then please produce it, if not kindly stop this campaign of misrepresenting me!
Edited by Is 1:18 on Jan. 22 2007,18:06
Amen Is 1:18
He dosnt ever represent the truth when it comes to quoting us.
His response is always “How can the Son be the God of who the Son is?”
Which obviously is misrepresentation of what we believe for no trinitarian denys hes the Son.
Trinitarians believe the truth of the scriptures that Jesus is One with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. God.
Quote Trinitarians believe the truth of the scriptures that Jesus is One with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. God. B4
Yoiu jump all over it NH! TYPO.
Should be…
Trinitarians believe the truth of the scriptures that Jesus is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. God.
Quote Hi W,
Fight on for tradition.
Simple faith suggests you should not
but you will.Hello Brothers & Sisters In Christ.
The debate over the Godhead is an old one to say the least.
Men for centurys have distrorted and wrested the scriptures and in many cases cast them behind their backs in order to support their Anti-Scriptural views.
Satan has sought to destroy the word of God off the face of the planet with no success.
Jesus said…
Matt 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.The Apostle Paul warned of the deception that would come to mislead the children of God.
II Cor 11:
13 For such are false apostles, [Messengers], deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles, [Messengers], of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Gal 2:4
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:The beginnings of most cults happens when men withdraw themselves from the mainstream of the body of
Christ ,because they have a new revelation or truth and stop meeting with true believers, those who love God, having the Spirit and living a seperated Godly life. They begin to isolate themselves, very often having an elitist Spirit.I suppose the biggest attack Satan could bring is against the Godhead. Of course Satan can’t touch God, but if he can deceive his people by causing them to believe a lie, then he would be successful in dividing the body and distorting ones view of who God is.
Some of the toughest scriptures for most of these decievers to deal with that supports the Deity of Jesus is Jn 1:1-3.
Many try to change them, or ignore them, and maybe even some secretly wish they were not in the Canon. Some may even wish that all the writings of John would disappear.
These are foundational scriptures which put together with Old and New Testament scriptures becomes evidence proving Jesus is God. Not the Father or the Spirit, but God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
There is no denying their validity, or accuracy. All the translators of the major translations agreed the same.
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madePut these scriptures together with the many others speaking of the Godhead. And you have irrefutable evidence that can not be denied without turning the head and stopping the ears.
The following is a quote from the Gospel way.
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,
(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).
(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!
3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God.See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.
(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.
(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.
(6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article.
If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin….ges.php
Rom 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.Quote Hi W,
Keep it simple.
Faith is simple.
So where did Jesus claim to be God?NH
We have shown you and you still dont believe.
Hi W,
Did I miss a post where you showed us Jesus claiming to be God?
If you cannot show us this should you be disappointed that I do not believe you?Quote Hi W,
Did I miss a post where you showed us Jesus claiming to be God?
If you cannot show us this should you be disappointed that I do not believe you?How about the words of the Father and Son….
Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me [there is] no God.Isa 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.Rev 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.Rev 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:Rev 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;Rev 2:19
I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.But you will not believe him!
Hi W,
Have you found any claims by Jesus of himself being God
or do we have to continue to search outside of his own claims?Quote Hi W,
Have you found any claims by Jesus of himself being God
or do we have to continue to search outside of his own claims?NH
Is the Fathers words not enough for you?
Hi W,
Once we have examined the claims of Jesus to be God which we await from you
perhaps we should look at where God said“This is my beloved Son. Listen to him”
Hi,
Satan has frustrated the work of the church in teaching, by causing it to get stuck at the roadblock, the biggest diversion, trinity theory, which attacks the very nature of God Himself that the church tries to lead men into relationship with. Very clever.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2007,20:28) Quote Hi W,
Have you found any claims by Jesus of himself being God
or do we have to continue to search outside of his own claims?NH
Is the Fathers words not enough for you?
he said he who loves God is my brother sister motherBut God is not brother
head spin
blessing
charity
Quote he said he who loves God is my brother sister mother But God is not brother
head spin
blessing
charity
Charity
To be sure Jesus was a man.
But is that all you see him as a mere man like us?
Quote Hi W,
Once we have examined the claims of Jesus to be God which we await from you
perhaps we should look at where God said“This is my beloved Son. Listen to him”
NH
I show you the Words of Jesus clearly claiming to be The First and the Last, and you dont believe him.
I show you clearly the Father calls him God [Theos], same word ascribed to the Father, and you still dont believe him.
How about another….
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Clearly shows Jesus is the mighty God!
And you still dont believe this?
Shall I go on?
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