- This topic has 18,300 replies, 268 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Oxy,
Taste and see.
Read the words of eternal life, abide in them and let them abide in you.
They are spirit and life.Quote Hi W,
From your response it appears you agree that Jesus never said he was God but you are a little shy to say so. Reverting to inferences and possible implications does not have the same impact as the words of Jesus does it? However that does not seem to matter to someone committed to tradition.NH
You should read my response closer, My point is if you believe Jesus is a God, which Davids Bible does, then you have to believe he is the true God or you have Polytheism!
To be sure I am clear. To me Jesus is the “True God” One with the Father and the Spirit! Or The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one true God.
Quote Hi Oxy,
Taste and see.
Read the words of eternal life, abide in them and let them abide in you.
They are spirit and life.NH
The scriptures are the dead letter without the Spirit to quicken the words to us.
This is why Jesus said…
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.One can know the scriptures and be a great Scholar like Paul and still not know the author of the Book.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2007,02:56) Quote Hi W,
From your response it appears you agree that Jesus never said he was God but you are a little shy to say so. Reverting to inferences and possible implications does not have the same impact as the words of Jesus does it? However that does not seem to matter to someone committed to tradition.NH
You should read my response closer, My point is if you believe Jesus is a God, which Davids Bible does, then you have to believe he is the true God or you have Polytheism!
To be sure I am clear. To me Jesus is the “True God” One with the Father and the Spirit! Or The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one true God.
Dear W,
Polytheistophobia?
Forget it.
Worship the one God, the Father, in the name of Jesus if you belong to Christ. Then all these little worries will evaporate.Otherwise you must be consistent and worship every being called a god in the bible.
Quote Hi WJ. i was being difficult, because what you say makes no sense. Your reasoning is completely illogical.
You had been trying to prove something by showing that there is no scripture that says: “Jesus is not God.”
But no one has to prove this. The burden of proof rests upon you. It is a fallacy to think otherwise, because we could just as easily reason that nowhere does the Bible say that “Paul is not God,” therefore, we can think that Paul is maybe God. This is wrong thinking. It's up to you to prove this.Your second error, was in then attacking, me the person, in making some remark about the watchtower. This is a sad tactic. It's a fallacy called Ad hominem abuse, if I remember. I might have spelt it wrong.
Please try to actually prove what you are trying to convey.David
No. The burdon of proof rest on those who deny scriptures thar plainly say Jesus is God and that the trinitarian view is found in scripture.
Ill mention Just two of these scriptures that all the major translations have. These 2 are only a few of the many, including the “First and Last” scriptures previously mentioned.
Just these two have caused much contraversy and as a result all kind of mis-translations and quotes and logic from men trying to change the simple meaning spoken.
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:There has been lots of explanations for these, but the translators, (all of them), except for one, translated these two just as you see.
Has anyone asked why is this? Even the newer translations which didnt favour the AV left the words as they are.
I am quite sure they knew more about the text than we do.
Quote Dear W,
Polytheistophobia?
Forget it.
Worship the one God, the Father, in the name of Jesus if you belong to Christ. Then all these little worries will evaporate.Otherwise you must be consistent and worship every being called a god in the bible.
NH
Tell you what. You worship your God. And I will worship mine. Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
Quote There has been lots of explanations for these, but the translators, (all of them), except for one, translated these two just as you see. YOu are incorrect in this statement. That's ok. We all make mistakes.
As far as this scripture:
Quote Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:It simply doesn't teach the trinity doctrine in the least, at all, in any way whatsoever. I get a headache every time you mention it as somehow supporting your views. Yes, there are three mentioned. It doesn't say they're all God, or equal in any way, or anything like that. It mentions three. It does prove that many can count to three.
Yet, you quote it as if it's some major proof text of the trinity. My head hurts due to frustration.Looking at your main, the ultimate trinitarian text, John 1:1, proves my point in an extraordinary way. And thankyou for mentioning it. Your ten or so scriptures, about 8 of them were the most unclear scriptures in the Bible. And this is no exception. Why is it that all these scriptures of yours, the ones you use are the ones that are so unclear.
A paradox arises when viewing John 1:1 the way you do. In any other setting, if that language was used, an “a” would have to be present. When someone is “with” someone, they are not that one. Normal logic wouldn't allow it. Of course, since they already believed in the trinity, it wasn't hard to accept this, and translate it that way. And as I said before, you are wrong in saying we're the only ones who don't translate it as simply “God.”
But I want to address this point, because it is just so amusing to me. The scritpures you showed, posted as being the “clear” easily understandable ones. Most of them in no way prove what you say they do. Half of these easily understandable scriptures are from the highly symbolic book of revelation. It's too bad you can't base your beliefs on the other simple plain easily understandable 99.999% of the Bible.
Doesn't that make you wonder about what you believe?
dave
Quote The primary problem among those on this board is the same. All of us are trying to understand and debate the meanings of scripture without having a clue as to what the writers of those scriptures meant. Without this understanding we all try to force fit our assumptions of meanings by filtering them through our western mindset.
I am certainly not imune to this and in fact freely admit to only scratching the surface of understanding scripture from a Hebrew mindset. In the course of these debates I have learned much because I am in the process of overthrowing my habit of metaphysical, philisophical, western thinking. Later in this post I will need to correct myself in the way I thought about a certain passage. I am still learning.M42
Thanks and opology accepted. I also am hard at times. The main thing is that we do believe in Jesus as our savour and trust in him.
I am examining you post and links.
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
The point I have made is that the name Jehovah is the family name of God. Therefore when Christ is referred to in scripture as Jehovah, it is referring to Christ and not the Father.
The Catholic trinity is a different concept and some on this forum are using the Catholic doctrine to avoid facing the Godhead truth and to try to confuse matters so as to promote their Arian doctrine.
The Catholic church teaches that originally there was only God the Father who “knew Himself” or copulated with Himself producing the Son; and later the Holy Spirit came out of both of them.
This is as blasphemous as the Arian doctrine promoted on this forum.
The Bible says that there are Three. Each God and eternal.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost::
JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Jesus (Jehovah.)
Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Quote A paradox arises when viewing John 1:1 the way you do. In any other setting, if that language was used, an “a” would have to be present. When someone is “with” someone, they are not that one. Normal logic wouldn't allow it. Of course, since they already believed in the trinity, it wasn't hard to accept this, and translate it that way. And as I said before, you are wrong in saying we're the only ones who don't translate it as simply “God.” But I want to address this point, because it is just so amusing to me. The scritpures you showed, posted as being the “clear” easily understandable ones. Most of them in no way prove what you say they do. Half of these easily understandable scriptures are from the highly symbolic book of revelation. It's too bad you can't base your beliefs on the other simple plain easily understandable 99.999% of the Bible.
Doesn't that make you wonder about what you believe?
David
Thats if you hold the view that The Father Son and Holy Spirit are not one!
NH
Quote Hi Cb,
God will return in the Son to stand on earth and the kingdom of God will be seen.This is a new theology!
Quote Zech 14
“1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. “
Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
Kiss the Son, for He is God.
Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God , is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 21 2007,05:58) So let's look at this from another angle….where in scripture are we told that Yahshua is “a god” or “one of the gods”?
Looks like this question has been declined. Any other takers?…..Quote Looks like this question has been declined. Any other takers?….. this will be fun.
At John 1:1, the context demands that we insert the “a.”
Of course, the context doesn't demand it if we already believe in a trinity, but discounting that, the context demands it.Does this subject have it's own thread?
Is 1:18, I'm wondering if you've been here:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/john1files.htm
I can't believe that you haven't. But I'm just wondering.
Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2007,06:35) Hi Is 1:18. I'm wondering what your response would be to my responce to you on page 541. david
I'm composing a response as we speak (figuratively)….Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2007,06:37) this will be fun. At John 1:1, the context demands that we insert the “a.”
oh it does, does it?….How so?
In your own words please – i'll be checking.
Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2007,06:39) Is 1:18, I'm wondering if you've been here: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/john1files.htm
I can't believe that you haven't. But I'm just wondering.
No, I don't think so.Quote Is 1:18, I can't help but wonder how what you posted proves in any way that Jesus Christ is “plainly claimed to be God.”
If I showed you a verse where Yahshua unmistakably identifies Himself as “The Almighty” would you argue that Yahshua wasn’t claiming to be God? I think not. On second thought you undoubtedly would, although you would have no grounds to do so. Tell me David what’s the difference between “First and Last“ (or Alpha and Omega) and “Almighty“?? Both are explicitly divine names, aren't they?Quote Of course, these scriptures only say that he is the first and the last.
Yes they do…although I wonder how YHWH feels about you using the words “only” and “First and Last” in the same sentence. Is YHWH only the Almighty? Or only the Most High? It's curious how you intuitively muster enthusiasm for The Father, as apposed to the Son, when they are presented in an identical fashion in scripture. It appears that in your earnest attempt to defend what you believe is the true God, to delineate Him from the Son (in respect to His essence of being), you, in relative terms, cast aside Yahshua, assigning Him tempered honour and respect, which, of course, is in marked contrast to the doxology used by the NT writers. But your knee will bow too David.Quote I don't remember who it was with, but not too long ago, I had someone on your side explaining to me that just because the same expression applies to two beings, does not make them the same. I remember being shocked by this, because it's usually me saying that to them.
It’s not my position, so I’m not sure of the relevance of this……Quote Jesus is called apostle. Jesus apostles are called apostles. They are not the same. Yet the word applies to both. What does it prove?
Non sequitur. The word “apostle” is not a divine name.Quote Anyway, let's look at those scriptures and some others.
Okay, let’s look…Quote REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des.”We notice that being the “first and last” is connected to him being the living one who became dead, and him now having the keys of death and hades.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood—”ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.””
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. This means that he was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)COLOSSIANS 1:18
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, we could guess that Jesus being the “first” means that he is God, but it doesn't say this. We do know 2 things:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in being the first to be resurrected from the dead.
2. The preceeding statement says that he is the living one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” Based on the context and these other scriptures, and with no direct evidence to the contrary, we have to believe that Jesus is the first in this respect.How is he the “last”? That too is covered in the rest of the statement.
It says that he had been given the keys of death and of hades. Jehovah had resurrected Jesus.JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ WHO BECAME DEAD AND CAME TO LIFE [again],”JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”It seems that Jehovah resurrected Jesus and that Jehovah has entrusted power of judging to Jesus, the power to resurrect. Jesus say: “I will resurrect him on the last day” and “I am the ressurection and the life…”
Jesus now has the keys of death and hades.
So I believe he was the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus.This explanation looks at the words and ideas surrounding the actual phrase: first and the last and it also looks at other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the first. It is not based on the idea that I want something to be true. This is what the Bible says. And as far as I can tell, it carries much stronger evidence.
Interesting theory David, but there is a critical problem for you:You have already affirmed that YHWH is the “First and the Last”, citing this, among many verses, as being spoken by the Father of Yahshua:
Revelation 22:13 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
So its evident that you are perfectly happy to accept that “First and Last” is a title of deity when applied to the father, but insist that its not that case with the Son. You treat the appellation as a unit when it’s the Father but, without any justification (other than your Watchtower presupposition), break it down to what you perceive as it’s individual components when the Son identifies Himself in like manner. Do you not see an inconsistency here? I can. Your interpretation demonstrates the desperate measures some are driven to in attempting to explain away a blatant claim of deity by Yahshua. It might even be the ultimate exemplar.
Quote But what you say about those scriptures plainly showing Jesus claiming to be God, that's just not in those scriptures.
Assuming that you acknowledge that the “Lord of Hosts” is the only true God, does YHWH plainly claim to be the “God” in this verse?:Isaiah 44:6 – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
If not, what exactly does YHWH mean by the application of descriptive “First and Last”?
Blessings
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
