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Quote Talk about me ignoring scripture? Your argument about YHWH and Moses can go either way, or else how can you know that the Father is God. Theos is used for both Jesus and the Father!
You choose to not accept that it means Jesus is God, I choose to accept it as meaning he is God.
God = Father,Son and Holy Spirit!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2007,03:28) Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus never said he was God.
It must be a bit frustrating that the best witness has not given your theory about his nature any direct support and you have to scratch around for implications and imagined inferences to try and make it stand up?
Is it worth upholding this human doctrine without his support?
It's always frustrating when your views are misrepresented so blatantly. Fortunately most people will endevour to present an accurate representation of it and not resort to fabricating some obscene caricature.The 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega' verses are the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH), as this is a title that YHWH exclusively reserves for Himself.
Isaiah 44:6 – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
There is no God beside 'the first and the last', He is in a metaphysical category alone. He is the Creator, the supreme being.
It's exactly the same for “The Almighty”, or “Most High” or any other of the explicitly divine names…..and whether you care to acknowledge it or not your question has been answered. So let's look at this from another angle….where in scripture are we told that Yahshua is “a god” or “one of the gods”?
Hi W,
Sorry but I was looking for any statements he made that he was God.He did not say he was not
Peter,
John,
Martha,
Caesar,
satan,
Michael,
or any of the roman guards etc.So can you concentrate on the issue at hand because it seems you are saying things about him that he never said and without his approval to do so.
Quote Hi W,
Sorry but I was looking for any statements he made that he was God.He did not say he was not
Peter,
John,
Martha,
Caesar,
satan,
Michael,
or any of the roman guards etc.So can you concentrate on the issue at hand because it seems you are saying things about him that he never said and without his approval to do so.
NH
JESUS SPEAKING…
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, **the Almighty**.Rev 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.Rev 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:Rev 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;Rev 22:3
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.Compare
Yaweh Speaking….
Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Now I played your little game.
So tell me NH.
Where did Jesus specifically say he was not God?
Especially since many accused him saying he claimed to be God or equal to God,
Yet Jesus or any of the desciples didnt deniy their accusations were false.
Show me your evidence NH.
Where did Jesus specifically say he was not God?
Quote Hello David,
You might miss the hebraic nuances in a lot of what Yahshua said about Himself in his exchanges with the Jews, but they did not. Also, it's just not feasible to assert that the pharisees (the religious professionals of their day) would compromise their own safety by illegitimately stoning someone. Their laws for executions were quite clear-cut and making a lunatic statement that fell completely outside of their conventional theological boundaries, like claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH, was not a stonable offense as far as i'm aware…..Hi Is. 1:18. But this is my point. If he was claiming to be God, why didn't Jesus say that. Instead, he said that he was being charged with blasphemy for saying that he was “God's son.” (John 10:36)
I have a question. What happened in very unusal cases when something that didn't have a specific law or rule came up?–something wild like someone saying he was God's very son?
Would they just ignore that. No. No rule, so he's ok. Let him be. Umm. No. You also say that they would have followed the rules. But didn't they charge him falsely, with sedition, twisting the facts, bringing in false witnesses to make up stories?Quote You might miss the hebraic nuances in a lot of what Yahshua said about Himself in his exchanges with the Jews, but they did not.
Right. They did not. They would have searched for anyone who could say the worst thing about this guy, whom they wanted dead. And if there was any, ANY indication that he was claiming to be GOD HIMSELF, THE ALMIGHTY, then they wouldn't have ingored this.Here's how it works.
Someone who isn't claims to be: a mechanic, and the president of the universe.
Which of these claims are you going to attack? Don't think about it to hard. It's the second one, the more outrageous one. It would be the same with the pharisees who wanted a reason and even were willing to make up false reasons to have him executed.Yet, the fact remains: Jesus said: “do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?“
We have Jesus words, saying that he was indicating he was not God himself, but someone in reference to God, his son, and secondly, we have the pharisees reaction to the things they were hearing about him.
I don't know how you can say what you say about this.
david
Quote Quote
And why don't you find me a scripture that says: “Nick is not God.”
Or “Paul is not God.”
Or “WJ is not God.”
There's an infinite series of things that you can't prove, and they are ridiculous.Exactly David!
You cant prove by the scriptures that he is not God, but there is clear evidence that you and others ignore that he is God!
Exactly WJ. So you see you are wrong.
Quote Exactly WJ. So you see you are wrong.
Back to topDavid
This is pretty strong from someone who follows Watchtower!
Hi W,
From your response it appears you agree that Jesus never said he was God but you are a little shy to say so. Reverting to inferences and possible implications does not have the same impact as the words of Jesus does it? However that does not seem to matter to someone committed to tradition.Quote Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,22:57)
Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.Here:
Revelation 1:17 – When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Here:
Revelation 2:8 – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this
Is 1:18, I can't help but wonder how what you posted proves in any way that Jesus Christ is “plainly claimed to be God.” Of course, these scriptures only say that he is the first and the last. I don't remember who it was with, but not too long ago, I had someone on your side explaining to me that just because the same expression applies to two beings, does not make them the same. I remember being shocked by this, because it's usually me saying that to them. Jesus is called apostle. Jesus apostles are called apostles. They are not the same. Yet the word applies to both. What does it prove?
Anyway, let's look at those scriptures and some others.
REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des.”We notice that being the “first and last” is connected to him being the living one who became dead, and him now having the keys of death and hades.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood—”ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.””
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. This means that he was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)COLOSSIANS 1:18
“and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, we could guess that Jesus being the “first” means that he is God, but it doesn't say this. We do know 2 things:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in being the first to be resurrected from the dead.
2. The preceeding statement says that he is the living one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever.” Based on the context and these other scriptures, and with no direct evidence to the contrary, we have to believe that Jesus is the first in this respect.How is he the “last”? That too is covered in the rest of the statement.
It says that he had been given the keys of death and of hades. Jehovah had resurrected Jesus.JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””REVELATION 2:8
““And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ WHO BECAME DEAD AND CAME TO LIFE [again],”JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”It seems that Jehovah resurrected Jesus and that Jehovah has entrusted power of judging to Jesus, the power to resurrect. Jesus say: “I will resurrect him on the last day” and “I am the ressurection and the life…”
Jesus now has the keys of death and hades.
So I believe he was the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus.This explanation looks at the words and ideas surrounding the actual phrase: first and the last and it also looks at other scriptures that speak of Jesus being the first. It is not based on the idea that I want something to be true. This is what the Bible says. And as far as I can tell, it carries much stronger evidence.
But what you say about those scriptures plainly showing Jesus claiming to be God, that's just not in those scriptures.
david
Quote Quote
Quote
And why don't you find me a scripture that says: “Nick is not God.”
Or “Paul is not God.”
Or “WJ is not God.”
There's an infinite series of things that you can't prove, and they are ridiculous.Exactly David!
You cant prove by the scriptures that he is not God, but there is clear evidence that you and others ignore that he is God!
Exactly WJ. So you see you are wrong.
Hi WJ. i was being difficult, because what you say makes no sense. Your reasoning is completely illogical.
You had been trying to prove something by showing that there is no scripture that says: “Jesus is not God.”
But no one has to prove this. The burden of proof rests upon you. It is a fallacy to think otherwise, because we could just as easily reason that nowhere does the Bible say that “Paul is not God,” therefore, we can think that Paul is maybe God. This is wrong thinking. It's up to you to prove this.Your second error, was in then attacking, me the person, in making some remark about the watchtower. This is a sad tactic. It's a fallacy called Ad hominem abuse, if I remember. I might have spelt it wrong.
Please try to actually prove what you are trying to convey.david
Hi david,
You say
“ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.”” (first to be resurrected to heavenly life, that is.)”
Well of course Jesus was resurrected to earthly life in the same old battered body.Quote The 'First and Last', 'Alpha and Omega' verses are the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH), as this is a title that YHWH exclusively reserves for Himself. Hi Is 1:18. I had no idea you or anyone considered these verses to be “the strongest possible proof that Yahshua claimed to be God (YHWH).”
Knowing this, I'll look into it more and this is something we should discuss in detail.
david
Quote You say
“ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.”” (first to be resurrected to heavenly life, that is.)”
Well of course Jesus was resurrected to earthly life in the same old battered body.Hi Nick, I went back and corrected it to say:
ACTS 26:23
“that the Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.””
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. This means that he was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person. (1 Peter 3:18)It seems to me that no-one can conclusively prove one way or another whether Jesus is God or not, hence 541 pages of posts.
My personal belief is that Jesus is God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Father being the Almighty. Here's why I believe that.
1. We know that in John 1 that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God. That makes Him God, but also aside from God as in not the Almighty.
2. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:7) when He was sent to the world as the Son of God.
3. Jesus asked His Father to reinstate Him to His former glory, as it was in the beginning. Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
So we see Jesus once again, the Word of God with God, and God.
The Holy Spirit is also God, although not the Father or the Son. The Father sent the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit was the Spirit of the Father, why would the Father send Himself? The Holy Spirit hears from the Father and makes known to us that which is from the Father. The attributes of the Holt Spirit are that He can hear, speak, comfort, teach, guide, reveal, give, etc. All of this points to a personality rather than a “thing”.
It probably helps too to know that the Father is a soul, which is spirit in definition. The Holy Spirit is not the soul or the Father, but is in submission to the Father.
I hope this helps.
Blessings
Hi Oxy,
So this is not any sort of equal trinity.
Why not just listen to the bible and discard these useless human concepts??Hi Oxy,
I have yet to meet anyone enamoured with the trinity theory that can tell me why. It is just something that they know. No one has said that it helps them in their prayers or to feel closer to God. They do say that if they gave it up they would lose so much understanding so it seems to be intellectually satisfying in some way to them. And they often devoted to it's defence as if they feel they owe a loyalty to 1800 years of experience of others.
But the bible is a living document that breathes the Spirit of God to every honest openminded reader and that openmindedness is necessary for God to be able to feed our hearts, and such traditional ideas become barriers to His work. Intellectual satisfaction is not the aim.The primary problem among those on this board is the same. All of us are trying to understand and debate the meanings of scripture without having a clue as to what the writers of those scriptures meant. Without this understanding we all try to force fit our assumptions of meanings by filtering them through our western mindset.
I am certainly not imune to this and in fact freely admit to only scratching the surface of understanding scripture from a Hebrew mindset. In the course of these debates I have learned much because I am in the process of overthrowing my habit of metaphysical, philisophical, western thinking. Later in this post I will need to correct myself in the way I thought about a certain passage. I am still learning.I should also apologise to those I have been hard on because they could not see from this perspective I am only learning. Especially WorshippingJesus. I do ask your forgivness brother and ask perhaps if you could consider my words as not an Arian or a follower of watchtower, but a brother that has begun to discover some truth and richness in scriptures you may not yet be aware of.
Many on this board have claimed to be open minded. Taking these ones at their word I would chalenge them to undertake a small study to understand the the difference between the way the Hebrew writers of scripture communicated and that which we use today. Please feel free to find your own sources, but I can suggest this small segment to get your feet wet.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html
As to my correction —
First let me say this. All scripture was written by Hebrews. The way in which they precieved words and the way we do was very different. The way in which the Hebrews viewed the words written is of paramount importance. There is some interesting evidence surfacing that indicates that the first 3 synoptic gospels and part of Acts were first penned in Hebrew and not Greek. these scriptures were written very early in the Apostolic period. Possibly beore the gospel went to the gentiles. John, being very young during the gospel period (some say as young as 14) wrote his gospel much later and for this reason wrote in Greek. This gospel coming after the opening of the gentile Greek speaking world were brought into the kingdom. ohn was writing to a vast Greek speaking world while the earlier writers were mostly concerned with the Hebrew speakers. This explains why words like Logos are difficult to understand. John was writing in a Greek format while trying to convey Hebrew concepts. Whether the original manuscripts were written in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek is of little difference as long as the Hebrew concepts the writers were trying to convey is discovered. This has been the task of translators and students of scripture since the cannon of scripture began. Unfortunately the ancient Eastern culture is all but extinct and we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradine shift to think differently.Being disciples of Christ is all about character. That is why our loving father gave us so perfect example of his own character in His son.
Let me by way of correcting myself give examples.
In two previous posts I spoke of the true meaning of “Spirit” and “Name”.
The word commonly translated “spirit” in both OT and NT is literally the word breath or wind. Ruwach in Hebrew and Pneuma in Greek.In Genesis 2 we see God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living being.
Gen 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.It seems Gods breath is the source of life or life itself. This is verified in Genesis 6.
Gen 6
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.In John 20:22 we see Jesus acting as his role as a prophet when he breathes on the disciples and commands them to recieve the Holy breath (Spirit)
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
We know this to be a ptophetic statement because the disciples did not recieve the Holy breath untill 50 days later on Pentacost. The result of this reception of holy breath gave the disciples boldness and an infussion of life unknown to them before. Peter who only a few weeks before denied Christ and hid in fear now stood in front of these same Hebrews and boldly preached Christ.
I have also alredy spoken on the true meaning of “name” and how the Hebrews saw names and titles not as ways to identify beings, but as descriptions of character traits. This can be clearly seen in the many names God uses to describe himself. Elohim, which itself means mighty God, is combined with other words to describe certain characteristics of God. Some examples: Elohay Kedem – God of the Beginning: (Deuteronomy 33:27). Elohay Mishpat – God Of Justice: (Isaiah 30:18). Elohay Selichot – God Of Forgiveness: (Nehemiah 9:17). Elohay Marom – God Of Heights: (Micah 6:6). Elohay Mikarov – God Who Is Near: (Jeremiah 23:23). Elohay Mauzi – God Of My Strength: (Psalm 43:2). Elohay Tehilati – God Of My Praise: (Psalm 109:1). Elohay Yishi – God Of My Salvation: (Psalm 18:47, 25:5). Elohim Kedoshim – Holy God: (Leviticus 19:2, Joshua 24:19). Elohim Chaiyim – Living God: (Jeremiah 10:10). Elohay Elohim – God Of Gods: (Deuteronomy 10:17).
In discussions concerning Matthew 28:19, I wrongly ascerted that the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit were titles and not persons. This was not entirely true. Let me explain with my new understanding.
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,First let’s define some of the key words from a Hebrew perspective.
Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring
Spirit = breath/life
Baptize = immerse (Gr)With these understandings in place look at the verse again.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength and of his offspring (begotten son) and of the Holy breath (source of life).
We worship our heavenly father through His son Jesus.
Worship = In our modern western culture worship is an action directed toward God and God alone. But this is not the case in the Hebrew Bible. The word shehhah is a common Hebrew word meaning to prostrate oneself before another in respect. We see Moses doing this to his father in law in Exodus 18:7. When the translators translate the word shehhah they will use the word “worship” when the bowing down is directed toward God but as “obeisance” or other equivalent word when directed toward another man. There is no Hebrew word meaning worship in the sense that we are used to using it in our culture today. From an Hebraic perspective worship, or shehhah is the act of getting down on ones knees and placing the face down on the ground before another worthy of respect.http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_worship.html
The life we live outside of Christ is only a shadow. The debates we get so excited about are mere tokens of the life we are to have in Christ.
In him do we live move and have our being. Through and in Jesus Christ do we again have access to the tree of Life. God is the source of all life. He exists. He lives. He is. He anxiously awaits to give life and life more abundantly to all those who by faith come through Christ blood sacrifice unto their own heavenly father and source of their life.I am sure there are those who will desire to “Greek” this post and run off on so
me western thinking tangent. I do how ever wish that you would please consider carefully the thoughts I have shown here. Understanding scripture from a different perspective can greatly inrich our understanding of God and His plan for man.Thanks I will look into that.
I am not for sure from reading your post if you are truly on to something. However, I can tell that you are on a very simular path to myself.
That path is realizing that many of us are not evil heretics purposely trying to subvert truth. We are all reading the same scriptures. The problem is we see it saying different things.
I realize the truth lies in history. We are seperated by milleniums, mutliple languages and vast culture differences. We are also very protective of our views because we realize the enemy is out there. Errors are the work of the enemy.
I realize that I am not immune to the work of the enemy in fact I believe the “whole world” is under his effects.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2007,09:16) Hi Oxy,
I have yet to meet anyone enamoured with the trinity theory that can tell me why. It is just something that they know. No one has said that it helps them in their prayers or to feel closer to God. They do say that if they gave it up they would lose so much understanding so it seems to be intellectually satisfying in some way to them. And they often devoted to it's defence as if they feel they owe a loyalty to 1800 years of experience of others.
But the bible is a living document that breathes the Spirit of God to every honest openminded reader and that openmindedness is necessary for God to be able to feed our hearts, and such traditional ideas become barriers to His work. Intellectual satisfaction is not the aim.
Nick, where do you get the idea that the Bible is living from?
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