The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,23:02)

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Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.

If one of the Prophets rose from the grave and told you so you wouldnt believe him. You have seen the evidence. Plenty of it. And if there was a book just for you that said Jesus is God, you would say you are going to hold onto your Arian belief.

BTW. Why dont you show me where the scriptures “Planly say” Jesus is not God!

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Instead of taking God at His word here, they teach that God became a man.
One of the most defining aspects of the Judeo-Christian God is His immutable nature.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The Hebrew word here for man is “eesh”. It means man and is a contraction of the word en-oshe, meaning a human or man in general.
Over 90 times Jesus is refered to as the son of man. The word used in the NT for man is “anthropos” which can only mean human being. It does not mean a dual natured being. Not only does this denote his full humanity, but clearly shows he cannot be a God without contradicting all of these scriptures.

January 20, 2007 at 11:18 pm#37909

Participant

Hi W,
You could at least say the SIMPLE truth
-that Jesus himself NEVER claimed to be God.
Then we can look at the other circumstantial evidence.

January 20, 2007 at 11:26 pm#37910

Participant

What I believe is very clear in scripture and needs no outside terms or qualifications to understand it. There is nothing ambigous or mystical about it. Nothing that must be accepted by faith without clear scripture. In fact my beliefe can be clearly explained using only scripture with no outside wordage at all.

Deut 4:6
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yahweh) is our God, the LORD is one! (In most translations LORD all in capitols signifies the personal name of God, Yahweh)

John 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Numbers 23:19
” God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (In the NASB Jesus is refered to as the Son of Man over 87 times. Most times by Jesus himself.)

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus, (MAN = Anthropos (Gr) can only mean human. Not an augmented humanity with a dual nature but simply human)

Heb 2/17
Therefore, He had to be MADE LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 4/15
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things AS WE ARE, yet without sin.

John 14/9 and 10
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10″Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and THE FATHER IS IN ME? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the FATHER ABIDING IN ME does His works.

Acts 10/38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 2/36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord (Kurios Gr.) and Christ–this Jesus whom you crucified.”
For He (Yahweh) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the MAN he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
(Lord, capitol “L” , small ”ord”, In the Greek, Kurios = Master or one in authority, much like the use in feudal Lord of a castle. Not a name for God. Additionally Christ means anointed one. God needs no anointing but a man does.)

John 12:44 thru 46
44Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45WHEN HE LOOKS AT ME, HE SEES THE ONE WHO SENT ME. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 20:17 (Jesus speaking)
“I ascend unto MY FATHER and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God.” (Co-equal persons of God?)

John 14:28 –
“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 3:23
– “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”
(Co-equal?)

1 Cor. 11:3 –
“But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:3 –
“Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;
(Co-equal?)

Eph 1:17
– “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
(Co-equal?)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

1 Cor 15:20-28
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

21For since by a man came death, BY A MAN also came the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

The human Jesus Christ has been given full authority over heaven and earth. He is accordingly called Lord or Master, the one in authority. He is in authority over everything except the one who placed him in authority. Yahweh is still supreme. Jesus sits in judgement over the earth and mankind as the perfect example of having the fullness of God in a human and fullfilling God’s plan for man. This position is given for a specific time frame untill all his enemies are put under his feet. Then Jesus puts everything back under subjection to God including himself.

January 20, 2007 at 11:48 pm#37911

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,22:39)

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Hi W,
“Only God could do that.”
Sound familiar?
Mark 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Same mistake.

Did he forgive sins? Then he must be God!

Jesus speaking to the disciples — John 20
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Are the disciples now Gods?

January 20, 2007 at 11:55 pm#37912

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,22:11)

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What did Thoimas demand to see?
You take this scripture out of context and refuse to see it as being about Thomas' doubt of the resurection.

So what if its about Jesus resurection, this validates the point even more.

For Jesus made the claim to the desciples that he would raise himself from the dead.

Only God could do that. So he responds to Jesus and calls him Lord and God.

I know this is a hard one for the Arian followers to accept.
Jesus also didnt rebuke him for making such a blasphemous statement, but instead blesses him for seeing who he is.

Is 1:18 had a solid response to your exegisis.

Ill post it again.

Quote

John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God' “

The Greek reads,

ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou

Which literally translated to English reads:-

“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”

This was not an exclamation but an address, as the nominative was used for the vocative (“Thomas said to Him” ). Let's assume you are correct. You would think that if Thomas, in his astonishment, had uttered a highly-blasphemous statement he would have been severely chastened by Yahshua. It wasn't His style to hold back, and on occasions he was cuttingly-blunt with his beloved apostles. So what was Yahshua's response to this supposed ejaculation of profanity?

“Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).

Did He just let it slide? Unlikely. Very unlikely.

It seems that Thomas was utterly persuaded of His deity and did not hesitate to address the risen Yahshua as “Lord and God”. And it’s little wonder that Thomas spoke this way as Yahshua had earlier claimed that he would raise Himself from the dead:

John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

A claim that was remember and repeated by others:

Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”

Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,

And (crucially) He followed through on this claim.

Yoo know, you would think that in all the places Jesus was worshipped that in at least one place we would find him encouraging men to worship the Father. Not so.

Even when the Pharisees tried to get Jesus to rebuke the desciples for praising him Jesus said….

Lk 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

WJ -As usual. Wrong again. Not only does Jesus enchorage it but states that the Father desires it.

John 4
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

WJ – Did you read that? “In truth”

January 21, 2007 at 12:09 am#37914

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,22:38)

And it was Blasphemy to the Jews to call a man God.

then Moses YHWH and Jesus commited blasphemy
YHWH said to the nation of Israel “Ye are Gods”
Jesus said to the pharasees “Ye ae Gods”
Moses refused to look at the bush because He was afraid to look at God.

Secondly – You have been claiming that esus was worshipped and called God, yet your dual nature doctrine claims Him to be fully human. ACCORDING TO YOU THIS IS BLASPHEMY.

If you claim His humanity is diferent then ours because of the dual nature or because He was a God that became man, then you have moved Him out of normal humanity. This not only contradicts many, many scriptures, but proves my point that the dual nature cannot work. If esus is anyhitng other then fully human, He cannot be the prefect example for us.

January 21, 2007 at 12:42 am#37915

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2007,22:44)

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You interpret what Thomas said as proof that Jesus is God and yet give no answer to statements by Jesus, YHWH and Moses who called other people and things God. This is not letting scripture interpret scripture and is dishonest again.

David

Because it is a waste of my time.
:blues:

Talk about me ignoring scripture?

January 21, 2007 at 1:03 am#37916

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 20 2007,07:30)

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I might speculate that in as emotional and shocking moment as Thomas was experiancing, he did more then clamly say “My Lord and My God. I can imagine his exclaiming MY LORD AND MY GOD. In the finale analisis, what was Thomas saying. “My Lord” Thomas acknoledges Jesus as his master and the one in authority. My God, Thomas cries out as the revelation sinks in of the absolutely miraculous fact that his brother and fellow human was raised from the dead by God. OH MY GOD!!!! THE RESURECTION IS TRUE!!! I DO HAVE HOPE FOR LIFE AFTER DEATH!!!!

The Greek reads,

ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou

Which literally translated to English reads:-

“Answered Thomas and he said to him, the Lord of me and the God of me”

This was not an exclamation but an address, as the nominative was used for the vocative (“Thomas said to Him” ). Let's assume you are correct. You would think that if Thomas, in his astonishment, had uttered a highly-blasphemous statement he would have been severely chastened by Yahshua. It wasn't His style to hold back, and on occasions he was cuttingly-blunt with his beloved apostles. So what was Yahshua's response to this supposed ejaculation of profanity?

“Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29).

Did He just let it slide? Unlikely. Very unlikely.

John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”

A claim that was remember and repeated by others:

Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”

Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”

Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,

And (crucially) He followed through on this claim.

Blessings

A great deal of specu;ation here too.

W called this a great exegesis. I have to dissagree. Your last statement is that Jesus fullfilled his claim to raise himself from the dead.

First it must be understood that Jesus was a prophet and operated that gift. Many times YHWH spoke through him. When He spoke of raising the Temple, it was YHWH speaking through Him.

The following scriptures show clearly that the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead:

Romans 4 (Paul speaking of God)
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

From a functional standpoint – If Jesus is God and He raised himself from the dead, then how is that a hope for us that are not Gods?
If Jesus is our example, do we need to be Gods and raise ourselves from the dead?

January 21, 2007 at 1:08 am#37917

Participant

Out of here for the night.

Take Care all —-

January 21, 2007 at 1:16 am#37918

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,23:18)

Hi W,
You could at least say the SIMPLE truth
-that Jesus himself NEVER claimed to be God.
Then we can look at the other circumstantial evidence.

Hi W,
So Jesus never said he is God.
He did not come to be served but to serve.
So if you say he is and he does not say he is whom should we listen to?
He has the words of eternal life.

January 21, 2007 at 2:23 am#37920

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2007,22:57)

Hi W,
I ask again for you to show anywhere in scripture where Jesus Christ plainly claimed to be GOD.

Here:

Revelation 1:17 – When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Here:

Revelation 2:8 – “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this

and here:

Revelation 22:12,13 – “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.“

Only One “First and Last” – YHWH:

Isaiah 44:6 – “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12,13 – “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens;

There is no plainer way for Yahshua to call Himself “God” than what we find recorded in Revelation.

……or do we have two First and Lasts?

January 21, 2007 at 2:38 am#37921

Participant

Quote (david @ Jan. 20 2007,22:24)

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“The Jews answered by our law He ought to die, because He made himself the Son of God.”. Would they have grounds to execute Him if the charge was claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH? Hardly. In Jewish thinking (in that era) “calling God his own Father” equated to Him “making himself the equal of God.” (John 5:18).

Hi Is 1:18.

I've been meaning to ask about this. I think I did ask it in another thread, but can't find it. “he made himself the son of God,” they charged.
These are people that hated Jesus to the point of wanting him dead. They were willing to bring false witnesses in, accuse him of false things, anthing.

If Jesus was teaching that he was God, don't you think the pharisees would have jumped all over that? None of this “he made himself the SON OF God” thing. They'd have used the most outlandish strongest charge they could. And if there was even the slightest indication that he was trying to tell people he was God himself, they would have been all over that and fast.

Wouldn't they?

Hello David,
You might miss the hebraic nuances in a lot of what Yahshua said about Himself in his exchanges with the Jews, but they did not. Also, it's just not feasible to assert that the pharisees (the religious professionals of their day) would compromise their own safety by illegitimately stoning someone. Their laws for executions were quite clear-cut and making a lunatic statement that fell completely outside of their conventional theological boundaries, like claiming to be the supernatural progeny or creation of YHWH, was not a stonable offense as far as i'm aware…..

January 21, 2007 at 2:42 am#37922

Participant

Quote (music4two @ Jan. 21 2007,01:03)

A great deal of specu;ation here too.

W called this a great exegesis. I have to dissagree. Your last statement is that Jesus fullfilled his claim to raise himself from the dead.

First it must be understood that Jesus was a prophet and operated that gift. Many times YHWH spoke through him. When He spoke of raising the Temple, it was YHWH speaking through Him.

The following scriptures show clearly that the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead:

Romans 4 (Paul speaking of God)
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

M42,
Read the passages carefully – He said He would raise the temple of His body, and that He had that authority…..there is no ambiguity other than what you have created for yourself.

January 21, 2007 at 2:51 am#37925

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
Did he who is truth ever claim he is God?
Did he leave a series of hidden clues that that he is his own father and deny he is who he said he is, the Son of God.
When he prayed to God at Gethsemene was he praying to himself?

January 21, 2007 at 2:58 am#37926

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2007,02:51)

Hi Is 1.18,
Did he who is truth ever claim he is God?

Yes. Alpha and Omega, First and Last = YHWH.

Quote

Did he leave a series of hidden clues that that he is his own father and deny he is who he said he is, the Son of God.

Can you please show me where I have asserted that Yahshua is His own Father? If you cannot then please do not misrepresent my view so blatantly. It's low.

Quote

When he prayed to God at Gethsemene was he praying to himself?

He was praying to His Father.

January 21, 2007 at 3:12 am#37927

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
So Jesus never made a plain and simple claim to being God?
So no direct evidence from his own mouth then. I wonder why??
Clearly we do not have to believe it then as he is truth and the simple truth is plain for mere children
So you are turning instead to circumstantial evidence then which could never convince a jury.
Instead he left some sort of cryptic crossword for clever fellows in ivory towers to dissect?
Somehow I doubt it.
Clever is not wise.

January 21, 2007 at 3:28 am#37929