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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2007,19:47) Hi Oxy,
That same Word could have sought equality with God but wisely chose rather to submit to him according to Phil 2, so that being WITH God was a fact and his divine status was not IN GOD.Otherwise in which way could a part of God be equal with God-that is a nonsense?
What does “divine status” mean?Quote So where do we read about Yahshua being “derived directly” from God? Amen!
NH please, I would like to see where or how you get that view also.
Hi W,
Monogenes.
The monogenes son was sent into the world.
All creation came through him but he was begotten as firstborn.Quote Hi W,
Monogenes.
The monogenes son was sent into the world.
All creation came through him but he was begotten as firstborn.He He He.
Ill set Is 1:18 respond since it was his question.
Hi W,
For 1800 years professional wordsmiths have sought to justify the new teaching of trinity by a little tweak here and a smudging there, to support the most successful business ever developed-human religion.
But you should follow Jesus.Quote Hi W,
For 1800 years professional wordsmiths have sought to justify the new teaching of trinity by a little tweak here and a smudging there, to support the most successful business ever developed-human religion.
But you should follow Jesus.NH
For 1800 years men have been denying the scriptures and turning the neck from them and turning to fables and false doctines derived from the thinking of natural minds.
Hi W,
So your doctrines only trace back 1800 years?Thank you for that admission because you should seek the revealed wisdom of God that goes back to the beginning of time.
WJ –
My deffinition of Word? I show you verse after verse where Logos must mean a statement, speach or expression of an idea/plan and you ignor them all. You find a few verses you can twist to support your doctrine and keep posting them over and over again, like some idle school boy. By what authority (other then your doctrine) do you translate Logos as Jesus.
wikpedia =
logos — which in Classical Greek stands for: a) the (oral or written) expression of thoughts and b) the ability of a person to express his thoughts (inward logos).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology
and:
http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=1536732
In the beginning was the Conversation;
and the Conversation was with God,
and the Conversation was God.– John 1:1, as translated by Erasmus
The opening of the New Testament's Book of John introduces us to Jesus as Logos incarnate: the Lord's teachings given human form. Logos here has traditionally been translated as the Word (of God), but this is by no means the only meaning of the word, and taken at face value it is at least a little misleading in this context. The word can also can mean reason, thought, or discourse. Desiderius Erasmus translated it as Conversation in his Sixteenth Century rendition of John; but the upper reaches of the church hierarchy were apparently unhappy with this reading, and Word stuck. We can only speculate as to whether it was rejected on theological, political or plain linguistic grounds.
(Erasmus, the primary translator of the KJV wanted to define Logos as conversation. Huh! Imagine that!!!)
The historical meaning of word still does not support your concepts.
A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.At Robertson defines Logos as –
The Word (o logov).
Logov is from legw, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logov is common for reason as well as speech.You say that John meant Jesus when he wrote Logos? Was John very confused? Did he change his mind about the meaning after a few verses?
36 times Logos is used in the Book of John. You translate the first four times as meaning Jesus. What about the other 32 times it is used? This is in the same book and the same author! By what authority do you translate 4 verses one way and 32 another? This does not even take into consideration over 300 other times Logos is used in the New Testament with the meaning always as an expressed idea or intention.In the following verses in John, I have inserted a question after the English word translated from Logos.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which Jesus had said.
Joh 4:37 And herein is that saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
Joh 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,(Jesus or statement/idea? )and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word (Jesus or statement/idea?)abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying(Jesus or statement/idea?); who can hear it?
Joh 7:36 What manner of saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
Joh 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying(Jesus or statement/idea?), said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word(Jesus or statement/idea?), then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath no place in you. even because ye cannot hear my word.(Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 12:38 That the saying(Jesus or statement/idea?) of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, (Jesus or statement/idea?)hath one that judgeth him: the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:(Jesus or statement/idea?) and the word(Jesus or statement/idea?) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word(Jesus or statement/idea?)is truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (Jesus or statement/idea?)
Joh 18:9 That the saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Joh 18:32 That the saying (Jesus or statement/i
dea?)of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 19:8 When Pilate therefore heard that saying,(Jesus or statement/idea?) he was the more afraid;
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, (Jesus or statement/idea?)he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying (Jesus or statement/idea?)abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?How about I John?
Logos Count: 6
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of life;
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) is not in us.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, (Jesus or expressed idea/statement?) neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.How about Revelation”
Logos Count: 17Re 1:2 Who bare record of the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)that he saw.
Re 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this prophecy, and keep those things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)and hast not denied my name.
Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Re 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God shall be fulfilled.
Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God.
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are true and faithful.
Re 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which must shortly be done.
Re 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book.
Re 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of this book: worship God.
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?) of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things (Jesus or expresed idea/plan/statement?)which are written in this book.WJ. Can you see that your definition of Logos cannot work in the rest of scripture? The question still remains – By what authority do you translate these few in John a couple in I John and a couple in Revelation differently then the remaining 350 times it is used in scripture? Does your doctrine of the Trinity give you the authority to translate a few verses diferently then the overwhelming majority of verses?
God has used Logos over 350 times with clear meaning of a statement, expressed idea, plan, motive or intention. This is in complete agreement with the functional and relational way in which Hebrews thought and wrote. I guess we should ignor all these scriptures and bow to your saying “Hath God said?”
Quote In the beginning was the Conversation;
and the Conversation was with God,
and the Conversation was God.– John 1:1, as translated by Erasmus
M42
I dont follow the words of Erasmus.
A conversation is not a Being. So how can a conversation be God?
This is heresy and foolishness. You are wasting your time with me.
John 1:3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made.I Jn 1:
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)These verses have pronouns refering to a living being.
In the verses that you quote with your interjection of your expresed idea/plan/statement there is no pronouns refering to the logos as a living being!
I dont know why John chose to use the Word Logos in reference to Jesus who was with God and was God.
But it wasnt to say that he was a figment of the Fathers imagination.
Jesus is/was the substance of all things, by him all things consist.
He is/was the Word that was/is with God and the Word that was/is God!
Blessings to you and yours.
Hi W,
A being has life in themself.
When a being begets a son one becomes two.
You say the Word is a being and I agree.
God is a being.
If the Word is a being and is with God, another being, then we have two beings together.WJ
You state –
I dont follow the words of Erasmus.Response –
Curious, you claim a preference for the KJV and a respect for the church fathers. Erasmus was the primary translator of the KJV. Do you now reject him because he does not agree with your interpretation?You state –
A conversation is not a Being. So how can a conversation be God?Response – Exactly! It is you that claims the logos to be a being/God, not me! 360 times the logos is not a being yet here you interpret it as being one. I would not use the term conversation to describe the Logos, but it is closer then claiming it is literally Jesus.
Perhaps instead of ignoring all the rest of scripture you should look for a different meaning for John 1:1. For example; Hebrews think relational and functional. They see the expressions/plan, motives and intentions of God as God himself. God expressed Himself in and through the burning bush. Does this make the bush God or even a living being? The bush went so far as to claim to be the God of Abraham, Isaaic and Jacob. Mosses spoke to and bowed down and worshipped at the bush. These verses are very specific and much clearer then those in John. Do you consider God to be a burning bush? I would hope not! However, if you consider Jesus as the perfect expression of the character of God being brought forth in a human being, the logos makes perfect sense in all the scriptures.You state –
This is heresy and foolishness. You are wasting your time with me.Response –
In all of our debates I have (as I remember) avoided the term heresy. Curious. Since you dropped the gauntlet — Hebrews see a being as coming in the flesh if their makeup is fully of the natural realm. Jesus was fully human. Those who augment his humanity with a dual nature or make him to be a preexistant God, run the risk of teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh. This is teaching the anti-Christ.
Anti-Christ = against the anointed one. Jesus as a human being needed an anointing. A God does not!You state –
John 1:3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.Response –
Up to this point logos as the plan of God is easily understood (from a Hebrew outlook) In addition the Greek says the Word was toward God not with God, denoting the word as a reflection or expression of God. Expressed image of God ring a bell?You state –
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made
that was made.Response –
You claim the pronouns him refer to the noun word and you believe that word = Jesus. From this you deduce that him in verse 3 refers to Jesus. What a bunch of circular resoning. First you assume Jesus is equal to word. Second the only true living being noun/name used prior to verse 3 is the name God. Therefore “him” in verse 3 refers to God in verses 1 and 2.
Verse 3 should read – All things were made by God; and without God was not any thing made
that was made.You state –
I Jn 1:
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Response –
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the plan (Logos) of life.How is that possible? John goes on to explain how this happened.
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;
God’s plan for life was manifested in Jesus Christ. We have seen that manifestation and bear witness to it. In addition to that, we show you that life. What life? The life in God’s plan that was with Him from the beginning and was manifested in Christ.
Further clarity is seen in Revelation 1:2 and 9
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John bore record of the plan of God and in addition he bore witness to the testimony of Jesus Christ. John bore witness to the plan of God and to the fullfillment of the plan of God in Christ. Jesus is the fullfillment of the Logos. The express image and revealing of God to us.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.An image of anything is not the original.
King James Dictionary
IM'AGE, n. L. imago.
1. A representation or similitude of any person or thing, formed of a material substance; as an image wrought out of stone, wood or wax.
2. A statue.
3. An idol; the representation of any person or thing, that is an object of worship. The second commandment forbids the worship of images.
4. The likeness of any thing on canvas; a picture; a resemblance painted.
5. Any copy, representation or likeness.
The child is the image of its mother.
6. Semblance; show; appearance.
Scripture clearly states Jesus is the image of the invisible God. We look at Jesus and see God revealed to us through the perfect image.
M42
Quote In the beginning was the Conversation;
and the Conversation was with God,
and the Conversation was God.M42, Does your “bible” show the following?
“Joh 1:14 And the Coversation (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,”
If Jesus was “the Conversation that was made flesh and dwelt among us” and “the Conversation was God.”
Then Jesus must be God!
I'd rather the Bible wording.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Jesus The Word is God
Quote You state –
I dont follow the words of Erasmus.Response –
Curious, you claim a preference for the KJV and a respect for the church fathers. Erasmus was the primary translator of the KJV. Do you now reject him because he does not agree with your interpretation?M42
Then why did he put the pronouns refering to a living being if the Word/conversation was not a being?
Goodbye.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2007,19:11) Hi W,
Monogenes.
The monogenes son was sent into the world.
All creation came through him but he was begotten as firstborn.
Was this answer for me? It was addressed to “W”….“Monogenes” denotes that Yahshua is unique, one of a kind.
“Firstborn” denotes that he is preeminent.But that aside, I don't see how this answers the question….where in scripture do we read about the Logos being “directly derived” from YHWH?
And another question comes to mind – can a “divine” being beget another that is “not divine”?
Quote Was this answer for me? It was addressed to “W”…. “Monogenes” denotes that Yahshua is unique, one of a kind.
“Firstborn” denotes that he is preeminent.But that aside, I don't see how this answers the question….where in scripture do we read about the Logos being “directly derived” from YHWH?
And another question comes to mind – can a “divine” being beget another that is “not divine”?
Hi Is 1:18
The original question started with you!
Blessings
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