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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 12 2007,09:06) Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,08:45) actually, the burden of proof should be on you to proof that he wasnt begotten in the beginning.
No Morningstar, you made the assertion, you should be willing to substantiate it, if asked. I have made no assertion to the contrary, therefore I have nothing to substantiate. You should know how this works…..Quote Throw all your rhetoric at me you like, but 2 beings regarldless of substance talk is still 2.
Did I assert there are two beings? Where? I am not a bi-theist.Quote This would be a mighty thing to explain to early christians yet we don't find it ever discussed.
I would love to be able to discuss this with them. The first question I would ask them is:- what scriptural support can they offer me for their theory that Yahshua was begotten “in the beginning”?Quote Well, because they understood that God the Most High is the only true immortal God and that he begot a son. Daniel 7:9-27
9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.A question: Who is assigned the divine honorific “Most High” (Heb. ‛elyo^n – “the supreme”) in the above passage?
I mean the burden of proof lies on one whom believes a standard has changed. The default original perspective of the Hebrew faith is that God is one and has no split personalities. You say that is not the case so the standard has changed and the burden of proof falls on you. Thats all I meant by the comment.Semantics, 2 beings 2 persons. tit for tat.
The Most High is God the Father. I think you are trying to say that it is the Kingdom of the messiah and therefore asserting the messiah is Most High. The Messiah rules as King over the Kingdom of God. It is God's Kingdom ruled by his messiah, namely Christ Jesus.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 12 2007,08:40) Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,08:35) and the world will never know the truth until they come to consider that the apostolic tradition only decades after the apostles contains accurate interpretations. They don't contradict scriptures they quote them so often we could reassemble the NT from just their writings. These men understood what they meant because it was explained to them by the apostles. Because everyone will just continue to argue over ambiguous passages. Lets be honest it will never stop.
You can lean on their understanding (do they even agree unanimously on everything??), I will stick with scripture and the paraclete…..
Perhaps, not on minor details, but on the core doctrines yes they do.I am talking about the apostolic disciples not gnostic heretics.
I want to make it clear that I don't place them above scriptures.
Rather, I apply common sense.
If a passage in scripture appears ambiguous then I seek clarity from their writings. Try it for yourself and you will see the NT in a new light.
I am not saying they are perfect men who wrote perfect theology. But, they are disciples of the apostles. If they can't get the core doctrines correct then do we have any chance? These are men who were martyred for their faith. They didn't die for a lie.
t8 and seekingtruth
t8
Sure I'll read those… thanks, though I am completely convinced there is only one God, the Father, and no one beside Him.
I just happened to fall onto this site, I was looking for something, clicked on this site and I couldn't believe it “THERE'S OTHERS LIKE ME, I'M NOT ALONE!!!”, that was very encouraging “I'm not completely nuts!”.
seekingtruth
So you're still going to the same chuch then?
Yes I know what you're talking about when you say you learn from your own writings. I'm much better at recognizing God's voice now, before everyone would tell me Satan can come as an angel of light, while this is true, they meant to cast doubt. Telling me that these dreams, visions or revelations by the power of the Spirit is Satan's work, or that they mean nothing. I just can't believe Satan can come upon you with such amazing power (Spirit), I can't think of any example in the word were Satan could do anything like this, but I do see God's power come on people in the old and the new testament. But even that, I still check with the word, because God could be leading ya in a direction, but it's not quit connecting with ya yet, because God has not given you the understanding yet, He's waiting for the right time.
Hi HT,
Your safety is in abiding in the Word of God.
The Spirit does not teach of His own initiative but takes us back to the teachings of Jesus.
Since trinity was not found in his mouth it is not of the Spirit of God.Quote Hi W,
Why would you say
“Jesus himself said he and his Father are One. This is not the Oneness that you think of as the Spirit of God joining us into Christ and we take on his likeness.”
When Jesus says about those who follow him in Jn 17
“21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: “
Surely you would not deliberately oppose the words of the MASTER?NH
Can you say…
Jn 14:7
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.Jn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Are you saying that you will be Deity like Jesus?Are you saying that the Sons of God will be equal to the Begotten Monogenes Son?
Will you be in the throne in Rev 5 being worshipped with the Father?
You may be in a throne, but not in that one! For they cast their crowns before him!
Jesus being One with the Father because he is the Word/God!
Creator and created!
Study the greek words where he talks about us being one with him and compare to the scriptures where he talks about being one with the Father!
The rest I leave up to you!
Quote Hmmmm…was He begotten twice? Can anyone point me to a verse in the Bible that unambiguously describes the Logos' begettal “in the beginning”?
Isa 1:18
He He.
Maybe its found in the New Arian Bible. I wonder if the NWT has a verse like that?
Quote Hi W,
You say
“Are you saying that you will be Deity like Jesus?”
Is Jesus also a deity?
God is ONENH
Yea, I know. You believe that Jesus is just a man!
Hi W,
THe Monogenes Son was begotten of God alone [Ps2]
and partook of flesh by the Holy Spirit of God and Mary
and was born as a man like you and I.Quote Hi W,
THe Monogenes Son was begotten of God alone [Ps2]
and partook of flesh by the Holy Spirit of God and Mary
and was born as a man like you and I.NH
Again, to you he is a hunk of human flesh that God the Father filled with himself and like a puppet on a string led Jesus around and did great things through that hunk of flesh and when he God in him was done he left that puppet on the cross to die forsaking him and then ressurected that hunk of clay and filled it with himself again and then set that hunk of clay next to him as his little puppet that he works through and calls him Jesus his son and says if you want to come to me you must come through my puppet my son that I have made, this nice piece of flesh called man the second Adam.
Does that sum up your view of Jesus NH? I hope not, for he is your creator and your God.
The Father says so!
Hi W,
Are you just a hunk of flesh?
He became just like us.
It is not us who teach he was just a shell for God but we teach he chose to obey, just as we need to.The Glorious monogenes Son of God emptied himself to become just as we are, partaking of our flesh becoming then just as we are body, soul and spirit. He was already soul and spirit as a spirit being, and his flesh was perishable just like ours.
He was anointed by God in the Jordan with God's own Holy spirit and then walked and worked in the name and power of God till inevitable death at the hands of God's enemies and their father.
Retaining his own individuality he chose obedience unto death submitting his own will to that of God in him and opened thw way to God by the tearing the temple veil of his flesh. Thus we can follow him into his death and resurrection by rebirth of water and the Spirit.
Quote Hi W,
Are you just a hunk of flesh?
He became just like us.The Glorious monogenes Son of God emptied himself to become just as we are, partaking of our flesh becoming then just as we are body, soul and spirit. He was already soul and spirit as a spirit being, and his flesh was perishable just like ours.
He was anointed by God in the Jordan with God's own Holy spirit and then walked and worked in the name and power of God till inevitable death at the hands of God's enemies and their father.
Retaining his own individuality he chose obedience unto death submitting his own will to that of God in him and opened thw way to God by the tearing the temple veil of his flesh. Thus we can follow him into his death and resurrection by rebith of water and the Spirit.
NH
Was his Spirit and Soul created at birth NH?
Or did his Spirit exist before his natural birth?
If his Spirit did exist before his natural birth then how did he cease to be what he was?
Quote The Glorious monogenes Son of God emptied himself to become just as we are, partaking of our flesh becoming then just as we are body, soul and spirit. He was already soul and spirit as a spirit being, and his flesh was perishable just like ours. NH
Just as we are?
Can you empty yourself so that you cease to be NH, or Human?
Hi W,.
Read it again.
He existed as a spirit being of soul and spirit so flesh was all that he needed to be just like to us according to the flesh.
He remained the monogenes son as inner man, a glorious vessel which those with spiritual eyes could still see.Quote Retaining his own individuality he chose obedience unto death submitting his own will to that of God in him and opened thw way to God by the tearing the temple veil of his flesh. Thus we can follow him into his death and resurrection by rebirth of water and the Spirit. NH
His individuality is what he was. If he retained his Individuality then he was still God in the flesh for he was the Word/God before he came.
Hi W,
He died.
His own life ended at calvary.
If he was God , then God died which is stupid.
Now he lives forver in the life of God's Spirit.
We must follow.Quote Hi W,.
Read it again.
He existed as a spirit being of soul and spirit so flesh was all that he needed to be just like to us according to the flesh.
He remained the monogenes son as inner man, a glorious vessel which those with spiritual eyes could still see.NH
Read what again. There is no such teaching in the scriptures.
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