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Histruths,
Welcome, My story is similar to yours in some ways, I was saved, sought truth in the scriptures, then after a year I started attending “church” and while I was indoctrinated to a point I never put too much trust in the “system” and was always (and still am) somewhat of an outsider.I also struggle with English (though it is my only language) but praise God! the Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth. I too am amazed by what I've written and will reread it many times. Some will believe me to be arrogant for this, but quite the opposite I know I'm not capable of producing most of what I've written. I've actually finished something and commented to myself “I didn't know that”. It's quite possible I could be deceived but most of what I've written seems to line up with the whole of scripture. If not, that's what the brethren are here for, to point it out (unfortunately sometimes opinions are also presented as if they were a valid arguement).
None-the -less, I do know that I have grown in leaps and bounds since joining, it can be frustrating, but well worth it.
Measure everything your read (or write) against the whole of scripture with an open mind, it is the light onto our path.
Long winded way to say Hi.
Father and Son are of the same substance.
Jesus was begotten from the father before the beginning.
However, they are not one being. They are two.
This is where a lot of confusion comes from.
The non-trinitarians recognize the distinctness of Christ and abhor the idea of people making a triad of multiple personalities out of their God. Often they take this to far and make Jesus out not to be divine.
The Trinitarians are afraid of polytheism and so must make God into a triad being. It is the simple answer to explain everything away. “Hey we have two persons here who are divine, yet there is only one God. Lets just say they are two and one at the same time and that will solve are problems.” Then they have to throw in the Holy Spirit as well.
If the Most High God begets from himself a son who is a seperate divine being does the Most High God stop being the ONE TRUE GOD?
Trinitarians say yes.
Quote Father and Son are of the same substance. Jesus was begotten from the father before the beginning.
However, they are not one being. They are two.
This is where a lot of confusion comes from.
The non-trinitarians recognize the distinctness of Christ and abhor the idea of people making a triad of multiple personalities out of their God. Often they take this to far and make Jesus out not to be divine.
The Trinitarians are afraid of polytheism and so must make God into a triad being. It is the simple answer to explain everything away. “Hey we have two persons here who are divine, yet there is only one God. Lets just say they are two and one at the same time and that will solve are problems.” Then they have to throw in the Holy Spirit as well.
If the Most High God begets from himself a son who is a seperate divine being does the Most High God stop being the ONE TRUE GOD?
Trinitarians say yes.
Morning Star
No Polytheism!
Jesus himself said he and his Father are One. This is not the Oneness that you think of as the Spirit of God joining us into Christ and we take on his likeness.
The Oneness that Jesus shared is one of deity!
Now you can put down the Trinitarians if you like and side with followers of the Arian sect, but in doing so will have to throw out many scriptures from the cannon that infatically show that Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Monogenes Son, the exact copy or twin if you will of God the Father.
Men have Sons and they are human.
God begats a Son and they are God!
You want to start the dialogue, ill go with you. For there are mounds of scripture that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2007,04:56) Quote Father and Son are of the same substance. Jesus was begotten from the father before the beginning.
However, they are not one being. They are two.
This is where a lot of confusion comes from.
The non-trinitarians recognize the distinctness of Christ and abhor the idea of people making a triad of multiple personalities out of their God. Often they take this to far and make Jesus out not to be divine.
The Trinitarians are afraid of polytheism and so must make God into a triad being. It is the simple answer to explain everything away. “Hey we have two persons here who are divine, yet there is only one God. Lets just say they are two and one at the same time and that will solve are problems.” Then they have to throw in the Holy Spirit as well.
If the Most High God begets from himself a son who is a seperate divine being does the Most High God stop being the ONE TRUE GOD?
Trinitarians say yes.
Morning Star
No Polytheism!
Jesus himself said he and his Father are One. This is not the Oneness that you think of as the Spirit of God joining us into Christ and we take on his likeness.
The Oneness that Jesus shared is one of deity!
Now you can put down the Trinitarians if you like and side with followers of the Arian sect, but in doing so will have to throw out many scriptures from the cannon that infatically show that Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Monogenes Son, the exact copy or twin if you will of God the Father.
Men have Sons and they are human.
God begats a Son and they are God!
You want to start the dialogue, ill go with you. For there are mounds of scripture that show that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God!
There wasnt to much I disagreed with.Jesus is very God of Very God.
The difference is the trinity says that he is a personality of a substance called God. This substance has 3 multiple personalities and Jesus is one of them.
I am saying the one True God had a son. Jesus being begotten of the divine father is himself divine.
Trinitarians all say they are co-equal and co-eternal.
The Father is greater than the son and the son did not always exist as a seperate entity. There was a time before he was begotten.
Hi W,
Why would you say
“Jesus himself said he and his Father are One. This is not the Oneness that you think of as the Spirit of God joining us into Christ and we take on his likeness.”
When Jesus says about those who follow him in Jn 17
“21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: “
Surely you would not deliberately oppose the words of the MASTER?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2007,05:04) Hi W,
Why would you say
“Jesus himself said he and his Father are One. This is not the Oneness that you think of as the Spirit of God joining us into Christ and we take on his likeness.”
When Jesus says about those who follow him in Jn 17
“21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: “
Surely you would not deliberately oppose the words of the MASTER?
I thought the same thing. But I assumed he must just ignore that to keep his view.Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to Hades, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From there He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic [or universal] church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of His Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made, both that are in heaven and in earth; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the living and the dead. And we believe in the Holy Spirit.
If they only would have stopped with the creeds at this point. The Athanasian Creed is the heretical one.
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,05:01) The Father is greater than the son and the son did not always exist as a seperate entity. There was a time before he was begotten.
Morningstar,
I have asked this question many times here but have never been given an answer….any answer…..Where in the Bible would I read about a pre-incarnation begettal of the Logos?
Thanks and regards.
You know the verses. You just interpret them differently.
Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Yet all those writings by the early Chrisitians only a couple decades after the apostles all record that this means exactly literally in plain greek what it says. Jesus was the first born, begotten of the Father. Yet you 2000 years later won't even consider for a moment that they know what they are talking about. Forget the fact that they actually walked with apostles and disciples of apostles.
18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Think about the context of the verses that follow verse 15.
…that in everything he might be preeminent.
The implication is that firstborn should be literal when you view it in all 3 contexts.
1. He was the first being after God.
2. He was the founder of the church.
3. He was the first to rise from the dead.Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,07:26) You know the verses. You just interpret them differently. Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Yet all those writings by the early Chrisitians only a couple decades after the apostles all record that this means exactly literally in plain greek what it says. Jesus was the first born, begotten of the Father. Yet you 2000 years later won't even consider for a moment that they know what they are talking about. Forget the fact that they actually walked with apostles and disciples of apostles.
Is Colossians 1:15 your best prooftext? Oh dear…..Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,07:26) You know the verses. You just interpret them differently. Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.Yet all those writings by the early Chrisitians only a couple decades after the apostles all record that this means exactly literally in plain greek what it says. Jesus was the first born, begotten of the Father. Yet you 2000 years later won't even consider for a moment that they know what they are talking about. Forget the fact that they actually walked with apostles and disciples of apostles.
Yahshua is also described as being “”firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18). If we take firstborn to mean “birthed” what possible sense could we make of this verse….It's also evident when read the OT and NT that the term firstborn for the Jew often refers to position/rank – not a procreative event (Psalms 89:27, Exodus 4:22, Hebrews 12:23 etc etc).
There must be a less ambiguous verse you could point me to….where is this mysterious pre-incarnation begettal described in scripture?
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,07:31) 18And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. Think about the context of the verses that follow verse 15.
…that in everything he might be preeminent.
The implication is that firstborn should be literal when you view it in all 3 contexts.
1. He was the first being after God.
2. He was the founder of the church.
3. He was the first to rise from the dead.
So now “first born” equates to preeminence? Well yes, I agree entirely!But wouldn't this rendering of the term totally dissolve your interpretation of Col 1:15….
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,07:31) 3. He was the first to rise from the dead.
Didn't Lazarus do that before Yahshua (John 11:44)? and some of the “bodies of the saints” for that matter (Matthew 27:52-53)…..and the world will never know the truth until they come to consider that the apostolic tradition only decades after the apostles contains accurate interpretations. They don't contradict scriptures they quote them so often we could reassemble the NT from just their writings. These men understood what they meant because it was explained to them by the apostles.
Because everyone will just continue to argue over ambiguous passages. Lets be honest it will never stop.
Hmmmm…was He begotten twice?
Can anyone point me to a verse in the Bible that unambiguously describes the Logos' begettal “in the beginning”?
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,08:35) and the world will never know the truth until they come to consider that the apostolic tradition only decades after the apostles contains accurate interpretations. They don't contradict scriptures they quote them so often we could reassemble the NT from just their writings. These men understood what they meant because it was explained to them by the apostles. Because everyone will just continue to argue over ambiguous passages. Lets be honest it will never stop.
You can lean on their understanding (do they even agree unanimously on everything??), I will stick with scripture and the paraclete…..actually, the burden of proof should be on you to proof that he wasnt begotten in the beginning.
Why?
Because:
Here O' Israel the Lord our God is one.
Throw all your rhetoric at me you like, but 2 beings regarldless of substance talk is still 2.
This would be a mighty thing to explain to early christians yet we don't find it ever discussed.
Why?
Well, because they understood that God the Most High is the only true immortal God and that he begot a son.
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 12 2007,08:45) actually, the burden of proof should be on you to proof that he wasnt begotten in the beginning.
No Morningstar, you made the assertion, you should be willing to substantiate it, if asked. I have made no assertion to the contrary, therefore I have nothing to substantiate. You should know how this works…..Quote Throw all your rhetoric at me you like, but 2 beings regarldless of substance talk is still 2.
Did I assert there are two beings? Where? I am not a bi-theist.Quote This would be a mighty thing to explain to early christians yet we don't find it ever discussed.
I would love to be able to discuss this with them. The first question I would ask them is:- what scriptural support can they offer me for their theory that Yahshua was begotten “in the beginning”?Quote Well, because they understood that God the Most High is the only true immortal God and that he begot a son. Daniel 7:9-27
9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.A question: Who is assigned the divine honorific “Most High” (Heb. ‛elyo^n – “the supreme”) in the above passage?
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