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Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?NH
What are they doing in heaven?
Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
Why arent you joining in?
Quote Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?Also you cant worship God without having Jesus. All the fullness of God is in him!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2007,18:56) Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?NH
What are they doing in heaven?
Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
Why arent you joining in?
Hi W,
AAh, I see.
So we can find scriptures that seem to parallel what we are doing and that is as good as following and obeying Jesus?Sounds like another gospel.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2007,19:06) Quote Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?Also you cant worship God without having Jesus. All the fullness of God is in him!
Hi ,
Not the same, Worshipping Jesus.
Not sufficient justification there for your new gospel.WORSHIP GOD
Quote Hi ,
Not the same, Worshipping Jesus.
Not sufficient justification there for your new gospel.WORSHIP GOD
LOL.
Hi w,
Is it funny to be asked to always abide in the Word?
God takes it much more seriously than you do.
And you try to lead others to do as you do?
Very brave man.Quote Hi w,
Is it funny to be asked to always abide in the Word?
God takes it much more seriously than you do.
And you try to lead others to do as you do?
Very brave man.NH
I laugh with him who sits on the throne. Have you never laughed in the Spirit? You should laugh with me NH, for the Lord will soon destroy his enemys!
Pss 59:
5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.
6 They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?
8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.
9 Because of his strength will I wait upon thee: for God is my defence.
10 The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies.
11 Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield.
Hi W,
If only the Words of Christ are found in your mouth when you teach then you will have the approval of God and the twoedged sword.Quote Hi W,
If only the Words of Christ are found in your mouth when you teach then you will have the approval of God and the twoedged sword.NH
Isa 33:22
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.His name Is Jesus!!!
Hi W,
From the Jordan God is inseperably united with His Son, our appointed Lord.
Know the Son.
God will walk on earth and rule again… in Him.Quote Hi W,
From the Jordan God is inseperably united with His Son, our appointed Lord.
Know the Son.NH
You havnt been listening! Thats what I have been saying!
Its all in the SON!
Bow the knee to the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords
Ijn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Hi W,
The Son is the WAY to God.
He leads us into relationship with God, his Father, in and through himself.
But we do not rest when we meet him but walk with him into the ever brighter light of the kingdom of His Father.
Then the wedding feast of the lamb as the fatted calf is prepared and the Son serves his brothers at the table of God.Quote (t8 @ Jan. 10 2007,22:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2007,22:14) Hi W,
So let us try to restate what you teach.
God came in flesh.
It was not God as we know him because it was an emptied God.
God then submitted to God.
God was then anointed by God with God's power.
Am I getting closer?
he he he. True Nick.It is exactly what many come here teach, and even a child can see the foolishness.
God sent his son. The son is the image of God and the firstborn. He is the Logos and was with God before creation existed.
Why is that so hard for many to accept.
Instead some people trample these precious truths using the mud of the mens doctrines.
And what kind of person tramples pearls into the mud?
Here's a clue.
Oink.
Hi t8:All we can do is give someone our understanding of the scriptures, and if they disagree with our teaching, we can pray that God will open their eyes to see the truth, but also, maybe we also need to study, perhaps some of our understanding is not correct.
I know that you are one of the Administrators of this site, but if I can say to you as a brother in Christ, I believe that you owe WJ and CB an appology for the statement that you made: “And what kind of person tramples pearls into the mud? Here's a clue. Oink.”
There has to be a better way to deal with this.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2007,05:59) What do you make of those who say you must worship JESUS
instead of the Father or AS the Father?
Good question.Right off the bat I'd have to say I love them… hehe… I worshiped three god's myself, and very aware of the confusion it creates, and if ya can't find the truth how can ya be set free. Maybe if I tell you about my experience, I think you'll get a good idea of what I think of it. Don't worry I'll cut alot of corners to try and keep it as short as I possibly can. But if you don't wish to read though all this then I'll just say ” Hate the doctrine love the people”. But the leaders, pastors or what have you I hold more responsible.
When I first turned to the Lord His Spirit was upon me. After three months someone said I had to go to church, I did, got indoctrinated, I died. Returned to the Lord went to another church, died. I did this again, and again, and again. What I was taught was not the same thing as I read, but I thought these are the wise men what do I know. I was pretty sure God wanted to save me and was going to save me, because He came to me and called me, and it was how He called me, but I was very confused. Again He called me and I walked with Him in the Spirit for about a year and a half, I did not go to church during this time, but His Spirit was upon me very strongly this time. During this time God was starting to show me things that were vary different then what I was taught. I won't get into why and how I went back to church again, but I did, and I died. While going to church I started to doubt what God had showed me, and started to think it was all in my head. Anyways tried different denominations, wondering what's wrong with me, maybe I'm cursed and God does not want me, but by the grace of God I held on to what He showed me from the start. I emailed a very tame version of what I was finding in the word (because I knew he believed in the trinity) to my… I don't know what you would call him, my teacher I guess (I'll put it at the end of the post if you wish to read it), to see what he had to say about what I believe God was teaching me in His word, never heard from him again. For me to believe in something other than the trinity was going against all of Christianity as I knew it, the only other teaching I heard of was Jesus was an angel. It is tuff to think you are alone and to believe that there is no trinity when everyone demands that you do, on top of all the other doctrines they teach.
I am in no way wise when it comes to languages, I even have a hard time with my own English language (apparently a learning disability). It basically came down to this… I said this to Him after many years of frustration ” Lord there is no way I am going to be able to understand your word when theologians can't even agree on what many of the passages mean, it's always “well this word means this in the Greek, and that doesn't mean that…”, who I'm I suppose to believe?. How am I suppose to know what you mean unless you tell me yourself. I tried to understand Greek but I can barely grasp my own language, What chance does a person like me have, I thought your word was for everyone. If you don't tell me your word, then what's left for me, forever cursed. I could leave but what would I do, there would be nothing left for me but a bitter wait of judgment. So if you want me, your going to have to teach me yourself, because I have no idea, I can't figure it out, I give up on trying to understand your word, you are going to have to teach me if you want me.
I was fortunate enough God heard my prayer. The next day I happened to read this on the Internet, this is what He said to me…
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
I would have to say this gave me a lot of encouragement. I saw this passage in a whole different light. For one thing He was talking about the *religious* leaders (I always assumed He was talking about atheists), and each taught their own doctrine. They killed Him because they wanted to rule over the people, but in the end God judged them and took it away by destroying that nation. I believe history is repeating itself. Many years ago while I was reading His word He showed me this about our spiritual leaders today, but I was not ready to receive it then, I mean at first when God revealed it to me I received it, but after, thought maybe it was just my pride and just in my head, how could all our spiritual leaders be wrong or false? And I wasn't wise enough to debate them. Makes ya think of certain scripture when the Jews wondered where did Jesus and Peter (I believe it was) get their learning, not saying I'm wise… yet, just saying… just saying I believe God is calling me out of that doctrine.
So as you can see I take it very seriously. Because Gods people parish for lack of knowledge, and the letter kills but the Spirit of truth gives life. For my own reasons I see false doctrine as very harmful, so harmful it can destroy you. The Apostles spent so much of their time writing letters to worn us of this coming danger after their gone. And that God would send tribulation to test those on earth. He would send something so deceiving that it would fool even the elect if that were possible.
Somehow I believe (I haven't put much study into this yet, so I have no idea how accurate this could be) that this is the great test that is coming upon the earth, this mother of harlots doctrine.
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler pays attention to lies, All his servants become wicked.
Isaiah 9:16 15 The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail. For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Lamentations 2
11 My eyes fail from weeping,
I am in torment within,
my heart is poured out on the ground
because my people are destroyed,
because children and infants faint
in the streets of the city.
12 They say to their mothers,
“Where is bread and wine?”
as they faint like wounded men
in the streets of the city,
as their lives ebb away
in their mothers' arms.Ezra 5:12 But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to wrath, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Bread is not the word of God, the truth in Gods word is the real food, without it you will perish. The very first thing Jesus said when asked what was the greatest commandment Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one…”
Matt 22:45 makes it clear Jesus is special and unique and not just a man. 43 “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: 44 ” The LORD said to my Lord,…” 45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” This is saying to me He did not come from man.
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2;\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Hi ——, (Crossed out his name, not sure of the rules on that.)
Good to hear from you, it's been some time now, I guess you really have been busy, getting a little worried about that. We are back from Winnipeg now, and was sad when my son said he misses grandpa, but everything is back to normal.
Yes, I have started my own study on the deity of Jesus Christ, not finished the study yet, I was surprised and I have discovered, so it looks like, it will be an on going study, or longer then I first had thought. I have always taken the trinity as fact, or that it always existed even before the creation of the world, but now from my study so far I'm beginning to wonder.
Before I was taught the trinity I thought the Holy Spirit was another way of God revealing Himself. Now after believing in the trinity I am beginning to wonder, is the Holy Spirit; God the Holy Spirit, or God the Father, or the seven spirits of God? But this is another study.
First it is interesting all the scriptures one can find like 1 Thessalonians 1:1 below, but not one that says “God the Son”.
1 Thessalonians 1:1:
King James Version (KJV)
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.I'm studying and trying to understand, as best I can, who Jesus is.
From my study so far it would seem Jesus did not exist as Jesus before His birth. It would seem Jesus existed as part of God the Father (the one and only true God), just as my son was part of me before he was born. In John it says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, why would John use “word” instead of “Jesus”? We know John is referring to Jesus when he says “word”.
So I'm thinking along these lines. We came from the Earth, God created the Earth, then He created man from the dust of the Earth, but Jesus came straight from God, making Jesus a God, in other words if God was to have a son the son would naturally be a God, after His Father, but the son is not greater then the Father, the Father is always greater then the son even though they may be equal in every other way.
Another thing to notice from this verse in John, it says “WAS the word”; “WAS with God”; “WAS God”. This is saying to me Jesus came from the Father and is the son of God the Father.
By the power of the Holy Spirit Mary conceived, God's power is simply He speaks and it is, “by His word”. And His word became flesh, I think when John said the word became flesh that's exactly what he meant. So when it says all things were created by Jesus, they were, just like Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham, for Levi was in his loins, and as Paul says in Rom 5 “through one man’s offense judgment came to all men”, so too Jesus created all things because He was in the bosom of God, or loins so to speak. God created everything by His word, He spoke it into existence, Jesus is the word, and the word of God became flesh-You see what I'm getting at?
It's possible we have an example from creation. God created man first, then made woman from man, then man and woman had a son, so we have man (God the Father) in the beginning, then woman (Holy Spirit/or possibly seven Spirits of God) from man (God the Father), then son (Son) from man and woman. It would seem to me that he seven Spirits of God are the Holy Spirit, it could be that the seven Spirits of God came from and were a part of God, making the seven Spirits an expression of God to the heavenly hosts, but more study.
Ephesians 1:17
King James Version (KJV)
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:1 Corinthians 8:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.But I suppose this all could be explained as a trinity, but my question would be why force three when there is only need for one God of all.
If there is anything to prove this wrong I would love to hear it. I would not want to believe a lie.
This following passage would be my problem text, well the only one I have come across so far. But I see how it can fit in with what I am putting forth here, but I'm not sure if that would be twisting the text.
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Philippians 2:5-11
5Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]
6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!
9Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name,
10That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Another interesting passage:
Isaiah 9:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Turned out to be a long letter, I was trying to keep it short, but I don't think it was possible. Man! sure wish I knew Greek, makes ya think, how does God expect a simple person like me to be able to understand and come to the right conclusion without knowing Greek? And yet it's mostly the simple He chooses. Which Greek theologian am I to trust? Maybe He does not expect us to know Greek. Better end it here or I'll go on forever.
END
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2;\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\[Man! You know what, looking back and reading this letter is really something for me, it's like a prophecy to me, because I didn't fully understand what I was learning or writing at the time, and even started to doubt it.]
Quote Hi W,
The Son is the WAY to God.
He leads us into relationship with God, his Father, in and through himself.
But we do not rest when we meet him but walk with him into the ever brighter light of the kingdom of His Father.
Then the wedding feast of the lamb as the fatted calf is prepared and the Son serves his brothers at the table of God.
NH
Ah, and so is the key.The marriage supper of the Lamb!
Who are we being united to NH?
Who shall we be the bride of?
Is it the Father?
Ah, and yet we are to be united to the Father, but not without the Son.
So what is your goal NH?
Do you think you will bybass Jesus to get to the Father.
The Father wants to be One with his children.
How shall he accomplish this?
By the joining together all that are his in Christ.
Sorry NH, Jesus is the only way.
Jesus is the end, because all of God the Father is in him!
Or will you be married to another?
Eph 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather **together in one all things in Christ**, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Dont forget NH who it is all for.ALL things were made by him and for him. The scriptures are all written about him!
Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God.Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Its all about Him. And yet they will not come to him. They think that they can approach the invisible God by bypassing the visible God. Jesus is his name.The Father says so. And you should too!
Check out the words of the Apostle Paul…
Phil 3:7
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Loss for who?Phil 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
That I may win who?Phil 2:
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Who is the prize?NH, we need to examine our focus and our hearts.
Do we see the Son of God as a mere puppet of the Father, a piece of flesh called man?
Or is he the Lord of Glory by which we have set our hearts and lives to abtain.
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Let this mind be in you….Phil 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
We should be seeking none other NH. For as we know the Son we will know the Father!Hi w,
At the marriage supper of the Lamb all the sons of God will be shown united by the Spirit of God.
All dead according to human life but living by the Spirit of Life.
Brought to God's table in Christ.
Worship God.Quote Hi w,
At the marriage supper of the Lamb all the sons of God will be shown united by the Spirit of God.
All dead according to human life but living by the Spirit of Life.
Brought to God's table in Christ.
Worship God.NH
Shall they be Sons, or the daughters of Zion?
The virgins without spot or wrinkle. Prepared as a bride for the marriage of the Lamb.
Hi W,
God has sons and daughters, a bride and bridesmaids and all those can apply to his children in Christ.
Virginity is according to faithfulness to the teachings and not being corrupted by the deceptive words of the Whore.Hi and welcome Histruths.
I look forward to contributions from you.
Congratulations on reading 9 pages of this discussion.
I would like to tell you about the following page which pretty condenses what is in this discussion but written in light of the fact that “there is one God the Father”.There is also a section that covers scriptures that Trinitarians use in order to back up their doctrine.
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