The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

It really is not that huge of a leap.

I have studied enough that if I didnt' believe Jesus was the angel of the Lord I would feel the guilt of being dishonest.

January 9, 2007 at 9:36 am#36361

Participant

Quote (charity @ Jan. 09 2007,09:31)

Quote (Morningstar @ Jan. 09 2007,09:26)

Jesus said those who searched the writings of Moses and the Prophets should be able to find him.

I have far to much evidence not to believe Jesus was the angel of the Lord.

Agree working backwards to find the secrets with the fathers

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Exactly, the bible is wonderfully tied together.

It is man who has trampled its teachings. Man now reads commentaries written by 21 century peers and base their entire understanding of scriptures by these men.

If you want to read some good commentaries read some of the earliest writings.

The writings of the early christians reveal they believed the very same thing.

Jesus was the angel of the Lord.

January 9, 2007 at 9:37 am#36362

Participant

But you can discover so much truth in the bible if you can purge out the nonsense found in our contemporary churches.

They have gone so far they are pratically a different religion entirely.

January 9, 2007 at 10:24 am#36363

charity

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Jan. 09 2007,09:37)

But you can discover so much truth in the bible if you can purge out the nonsense found in our contemporary churches.

They have gone so far they are pratically a different religion entirely.

Yes some how we need to reclaim the moment lost by many generations passing Chinese whispers now far away from the truth even
I have tried to gently see if people would consider looking back to the prophets instead of running in circles around the set themes and scriptures being captive to stuck.

Thanks charity

January 9, 2007 at 12:53 pm#36385

Adam Pastor

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Jan. 09 2007,09:36)

Jesus was the angel of the Lord.

Greetings Morningstar

What follows are quotes from some other posts relevant to this subject … Hope they help …

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 26 2006,23:46)

Jesus could not be the Angel of the Lord in the OT;
1) Because he is a human being NOT an angelic being
2) And as such he was not even conceived/begotten yet at the time of the OT

Jesus cannot be an/the 'Angel of the Lord'
Now when I speak of an 'angel' I am speaking of the non-human kind i.e. the host of heaven … angelic beings.

Now if Jesus was an Angel of the Lord he could not qualify to be GOD's Only-Begotten Son!
Why? Because GOD said so, and it appears that the Early Church including the writer of Hebrews were fully aware of this & had no concept that Jesus was at anytime, an angelic being

(Heb 1:4-7) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(Heb 1:13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
(Heb 2:5-9) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The writer of Hebrew is obviously refuting 'angel-christology' which appears was prevalent at his time; he is refuting it using the strongest possible terms.
He is showing that Jesus the Messiah, GOD's Son, was NOT an angelic being at any time!
How much clearer could the writer make it?
The questions in Heb. 1:5, 13; are NOT rhetorical questions.
The answer therefore is:- TO NONE OF THE ANGELS, DID GOD AT ANYTIME SAY …
Thus, Jesus the Messiah, GOD's only-begotten human son was NOT & is NOT an angelic being at anytime!

GOD never ever intended the world to come to be put in subjection under any angel. It was always the will of GOD that the world be under subjection to human beings, not angelic beings hence the terms, 'man & son of man'.
In chapter 2, the writer of Hebrews is equating Jesus, even the risen Jesus, as a bonafide human being, a man, a son of man, and not an angelic being!

Stephen [Acts 7] & Paul [Gal 3.19; cp. Heb 2.2] were fully aware of the OT and they stated that what spoke to the patriarchs were 'angels', angelic beings, plain and simple … they never equate Jesus as an OT angel … never!

There is simply no verse which equates the Messiah with the OT Angel of the Lord! No not one.

Therefore, in the OT, via what the Jews call, the law of agency, GOD spoke and acted via/thru His angels.

(Acts 7:30) And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
(Acts 7:35) This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
(Acts 7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
(Acts 7:52-53) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
(Acts 7:55-56) But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen mentions the well-known facts that it was 'angels' that appeared & spoke to the patriarchs, GOD working thru them.
He finally begins to speak of the Messiah in verse 52ff … he nevers says that it was the Messiah who spoke to the patriarchs; rather, Stephen states that it was Stephen's audience who were the betrayers & murderers of the Messiah in NT times! i.e. in their time! He does not depict the Messiah in OT times but rather depicts the Coming of the Messiah in their NT time! Not only did the Messiah come, but his audience were instrumental in his death!

And finally, if GOD had spoken thru His Son in OT times via any means, the following verses would not make sense …

(Heb 1:1-2) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Compare: (1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, )

You see!
GOD did NOT speak via His Son in time past (simply because His Son was NOT conceived/begotten yet!)

It wasn't until Jesus came into being … until he was begotten … in the fulness of time, in these last days that GOD had an only-begotten Son to speak TO US thru!!!

GOD's Son was foreordained even in OT times. He did not exist in OT times. He did not exist until he was conceived/begotten like every other human being

Jesus was & ever will be a human being
He was never at any time, an angelic being!

(Oh BTW, remember, the Angel of the Lord continues to appear in the NT e.g. Matt 1:20,24; 2.13, 28.2; Luke 2.9, etc; so again, it can't be Jesus the Messiah!)

Reread Hebrews Chapters 1 thru 2, again!

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Sep. 29 2006,01:27)

Plus to those who believe the Angel of the Lord is Jesus
… If Jesus is 'the Angel of the Lord' then who is the Angel of the Lord???

(Mat 1:20-21) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Mat 1:24-25) Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

(Mat 2:13) And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

(Mat 2:19-20) But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

(Mat 28:2-7) And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. … 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen … 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

(Luke 2:9-11) And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Do you see my point?

Quote ( Adam Pastor @ Sep. 29 2006,10:45)

The so-called church fathers were Hellenistic-minded believers who 'lost the art' of reading the Scriptures with a Hebraic mindset.
Justin Martyr was the first to call Jesus, 'the Second God'; and also remember he was 'a philosopher turned “Christian” '!! That is, his mind was steeped in Greek Platonism and philosophy.
Remember Col 2.8!
Justin Martyr as well as the church fathers of his era, tried to marry their Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures with disatrous results. It was these men who introduced the Platonic notion of 'the immortality of the soul' and with this notion introduced the concept that Jesus the Messiah pre-existed as a personal being known as '[God] the Logos' who was alongside GOD before the foundation of the world.
Like I said, this notion of 'literal pre-existence' of the Messiah was based on their Hellenistic, Platonic philosophy.
Justin Martyr one of the earliest proponent of this notion, when trying to convince Trypho the Jew, actually said …

CHAPTER XLVIII [48] — BEFORE THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS PROVED, HE [TRYPHO] DEMANDS THAT IT BE SETTLED THAT HE IS CHRIST.

Quote

And Trypho said, “We have heard what you think of these matters. Resume the discourse where you left off, and bring it to an end. For some of it appears to me to be paradoxical, and wholly incapable of proof. For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, then that He submitted to be born and become man, yet that He is not man of man, this [assertion] appears to me to be not merely paradoxical, but also foolish.”
And I replied to this, “I know that the statement does appear to be paradoxical, especially to those of your race, who are ever unwilling to understand or to perform the [requirements] of God, but [ready to perform] those of your teachers, as God Himself declares. Now assuredly, Trypho,” I continued,” [the proof] that this man is the Christ of God does not fail, though I be unable to prove that He existed formerly as Son of the Maker of all things, being God, and was born a man by the Virgin. But since I have certainly proved that this man is the Christ of God, whoever He be, even if I do not prove that He pre-existed, and submitted to be born a man of like passions with us, having a body, according to the Father's will; in this last matter alone is it just to say that I have erred, and not to deny that He is the Christ, though it should appear that He was born man of men, and [nothing more] is proved [than this], that He has become Christ by election. For there are some, my friends,” I said, “of our race, who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I, even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines, but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.”

(Taken from: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text….ho.html )

So, Justin Martyr could not prove that Jesus pre-existed his birth! Like Justin Martyr, I suggest … that you have erred in this matter. Justin also points out (as history proves) that it was the majority position among Christians of that time, that Jesus the Christ of GOD, was born man of men! Thus he did not pre-exist as someone or something else.
Sadly, this philosophical, Platonic notion of 'a literal pre-existence of a Logos-being' gained ground among the Hellenistic Christians, and we have the situation that we have today!!

So, like I said, … don't depend upon 'the church fathers' for proof … go back to the Scriptures.
Jesus was speaking of Deut 18:15-19; both disciples & believers alike perceived that Jesus of Nazareth was
'That Prophet' [e.g. John 4.19,29,42-44; 6.14, 7.40, Acts 3.22ff, 7.37, etc]
Neither Jesus nor any of his apostles identified the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord.
And as I said before, if memory serves me well, neither in any of the Jewish apocryphal writings (which are nearer to the source & era then the writings of the church fathers) ever identify the Messiah as the Angel of the Lord or Metatron. (Please correct me if I am mistaken by quoting otherwise)
Be Berean. Search these facts out.
God strengthen you in your search. Amen.

January 9, 2007 at 1:50 pm#36386

Participant

Hebrews 1 and 2 proclaim Jesus to be far exalted above his brethren (i.e. the other angels).

It even explains why he became flesh in Hebrew 2:16. So that he can help the descendents of Abraham by knowing perfectly how to intercede on behalf of them. He could no longer maintain his angelic nature since it is not angels he helps.

Jesus is refered to so many times as being preincarnate in the new testament. I definately do not believe in the heresy of adoptionism.

These verses you quoted in Hebrews chapter 1 are reflections of the old testament

Hebrews 1:5-6
Or again,

“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?

6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God's angels worship him.”

It is found here:

Deuteronomy 32:43
43″Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,[a]
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him[c]
and cleanses[d] his people's land.”[e]

This is the song of Moses describing how God divided the nations.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.

This is something that has already occured once before, before his incarnation as a son of man.

January 9, 2007 at 1:54 pm#36387

Participant

Reading first century Jewish Targums will tell you the same thing. The jews anticipated the word of the Lord, the angel of great council to be the messiah.

January 9, 2007 at 2:35 pm#36389

charity

Participant

I feel answers can be found in his Name, All Power is in his name
I have used the Names given from revelations and lifted him higher so that he draw all things to himself

Faithful AND True

The Word of God.

*KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.*

First thing to glorify him in the creation as the author? so….

The white horse Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

David, one from the roots of Jessie, who the covenant of promise to life was given, and many people gathered because of his faithful preaching The sure Mercies of David delivered to the Great Congregation, by him many were redeemed to God, but still spent their lives waiting for the arrival of the savor, much like Many do today holders of unfulfilled prophecy, except he has come, and said I am with you always, behold I knock if any will open I shall come in, we have him at our door.
So THINKING if someone is at your table, you can’t also be still expecting him to arrive.
Faith alone on the things unseen, a head may swing from side to side faith stolen defeating the Christ knocking at the door, and attention been given to another Christ to come? And danger towards a thief turning up?

The name Faithful and true

Dose Christ desires include his father David to be glorified in his names who turned the hearts of the congregations towards his coming.

Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty; I have exalted [one] chosen out of the people.
Psa 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
Psa 89:21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

How the wicked Deal with King David and his covenant
Psa 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown [by casting it] to the ground.
Psa 89:40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

And Christ announced some ahead of their appointed positions and that their feet returning to walk the earth as holy and purified according to the gospel of mercy a covenant towards New life that was delivered to them by messenger to massagers from his father David, these are the Men of Nineveh, REDEEMNED Set aside BEFORE the Lamb of God was sent

These verses explain the start of the convent of life delivered by David by the Holy Ghost to the end of Christ’s life resurrection and ascending?
We should agree that Christ is now the King of kings Lord of Lords

Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called *Faithful AND True*, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, *that no man knew*, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God.*
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, *KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.*

Has Christ glorified his faithful follows also in his last Name, King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
And return to Eden with a Kings lords those things from the beginning, a daughters of zion

He wishes his father David not to have his crown cast to the ground, and the same for us also that are FOUND faithful

SHALL Christ EVEN make that crown sit on David’s head for the people of his covenent and kingdom?
Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Selah

January 9, 2007 at 4:58 pm#36394

Adam Pastor

Participant

Which Targum?
Please quote accordingly with Source;
Thank You

January 9, 2007 at 5:28 pm#36395

Participant

Hi MS,
First you need to give us a scripture that says Jesus is an angel.
Secondly you need to find supporting scriptures that show it is a proven fact.
Then we can stand on this firm foundation.
Otherwise it remains just an idea you and others have agreed on.
We do not follow men but what is written.

January 9, 2007 at 7:53 pm#36411

Participant

Jesus has been given **ALL POWER** in heaven and in earth.

Eph 1:
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Col 1:
16 For by him were **all things created**, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is **before all things**, and **by him all things consist**.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should **all fulness dwell**;

Heb 1:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Father has given him a name above every name.

Phil 2:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

He is not above the Father, Neither is he below the Father.

Jehovah is above the Son only in rank.

He has committed all things to the Son. It Pleased the Father that **ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELL IN HIM BODILY**

Everyone wants to give so much honor to the Father. Great.

We honor the Father by honoring the Son **even a as you would honor** the Father, this includes being God.

If The Father calls him God and honors him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. Should we not honor the Father by doing the same.

He that hath the Son hath “God” the Father also.

I Jn 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that **Jesus Christ,[Word/God]** is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ,[Word/God] is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

He is at the right hand of the Father. Jesus said the Father was greater than he because he had no yet been given back all the power which he had with the Father as co-creastor before he took on human form and offered his Body as a sacrifice for us, being subject to the Father wiliingly given up his right to be equal with God.

He had not yet been Glorified with the Glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

Jesus is co-creator with the Father and the Spirit, of **ALL** things, and By him **ALL THINGS CONSIST**, and he is BEFORE **ALL THINGS**.

Who could contain all of God but Jesus the Word/God?

Unless he created himself then he is the Great **I AM** that is written about in the volume of the book.

There is no scriptural evidence that the Word/God who took on human form had a beginning.

Show me and I will believe you.

January 9, 2007 at 7:54 pm#36412

Participant

Hi W,
Indeed he has been given all power by a greater being, his Father and his God.

January 9, 2007 at 9:34 pm#36420

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
Indeed he has been given all power by a greater being, his Father and his God.

Do you have a Son? Is he a greater being than you?

January 9, 2007 at 9:53 pm#36421

Participant

Hi W,
I have several wonderful sons and none share my being though we do have unity in the Spirit. I begat none from my self alone so we are not greater than or less than each other.

The Son of God told us several times God us God was his Father and was greater than himself and we should believe his words rather than develop ideas based on human experiences.

The Father too also at least twice confirmed that Jesus was His Son and surely we should believe Him?

The Son of God is ever the stumbling stone for jews and now gentiles it seems.

January 9, 2007 at 10:57 pm#36424

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
I have several wonderful sons and none share my being though we do have unity in the Spirit. I begat none from my self alone so we are not greater than or less than each other.

The Son of God told us several times God us God was his Father and was greater than himself and we should believe his words rather than develop ideas based on human experiences.

The Father too also at least twice confirmed that Jesus was His Son and surely we should believe Him?

The Son of God is ever the stumbling stone for jews and now gentiles it seems.

The Father is greater in rank, not substance, essence, or nature.

If he is the nature of God and is less than God in being, then he is not truly the nature of God is he?

Jesus became the son when he was made flesh. But his essence, substance and nature as the Word/God did not change or he would no longer be the Word.

Just as you are a Spirit who lives in a body. Jesus the Eternal Spirit took on human form.

This is scriptural!

January 9, 2007 at 11:06 pm#36425

Participant

Hi W,
So when he emptied himself it was of nothing of any significance?
When he came it was in his own glory and strength?
He came to tell us about himself only?

This is a new gospel and we should abhor it.

January 9, 2007 at 11:17 pm#36426

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
Jesus is not the destiny-he is the Way

Jesus is not your destiny?

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

What is your destiny NH?

It looks like the Apostle Pauls was Jesus. A prize is usually given at the end of a race or event.

What are you looking for?

Heb
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

January 9, 2007 at 11:27 pm#36427

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
So when he emptied himself it was of nothing of any significance?
When he came it was in his own glory and strength?
He came to tell us about himself only?

This is a new gospel and we should abhor it.

This is the Gospel.

If you empty yourself and let Jesus live in you, do you cease to be NH. No you simply submit all of your power and authority over your own life and let Jesus take control.

The Word left all his right and power and authority as God for he was in the form of God and humbled himself and took on the form of a servant which to him was being born in human form.

You have no evidence the Word/God was no longer the Word/God when Jesus was born!

Jesus did not stop being deity, he simply chose to submit to God his Father in everthing even unto death.

This is the Gospel that the Apostles preached and has come to us by the Spirit of truth.

Maybe this is a new Gospel to you NH.

But it is the true Gospel. Prove me wrong in what I say with scriptures!

January 9, 2007 at 11:31 pm#36428

942767

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2007,19:53)

Jesus has been given **ALL POWER** in heaven and in earth.

The Father has given him a name above every name.

He is not above the Father, Neither is he below the Father.

Jehovah is above the Son only in rank.

He has committed all things to the Son. It Pleased the Father that **ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELL IN HIM BODILY**

Everyone wants to give so much honor to the Father. Great.

We honor the Father by honoring the Son **even a as you would honor** the Father, this includes being God.

If The Father calls him God and honors him as such and commands the Angels to worship him. Should we not honor the Father by doing the same.

He that hath the Son hath “God” the Father also.

He had not yet been Glorified with the Glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

Jesus is co-creator with the Father and the Spirit, of **ALL** things, and By him **ALL THINGS CONSIST**, and he is BEFORE **ALL THINGS**.

Who could contain all of God but Jesus the Word/God?

Unless he created himself then he is the Great **I AM** that is written about in the volume of the book.

There is no scriptural evidence that the Word/God who took on human form had a beginning.

Show me and I will believe you.

Hi WJ:

I have a few questions relative to what you wrote.

If Jesus is the Great “I AM”, How do you explain verse 1 of Hebrews which states “GOD HAS SPOKEN UNTO US BY HIS SON”.

And Jesus is the co-creator with the the Father and the Holy Spirit, how do you explain the last portion of Hebrews 1:2 which states: “BY WHOM(referring to Jesus) ALSO HE (referring to God) MADE THE WORLDS”. (It appears that he acted alone in the creation.)

What is meant in Phil 2:6 by “WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD…”.

If your statement that He, Jesus, is not above the Father, neither is he below the Father is true then how do you explain: 1 Co 11:3 which states: “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of woman is the man; AND THE HEAD OF CHIRST IS GOD”. Or, Ephesians 4:6 which states: “ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL WHO IS ABOVE ALL…”.

What does Jesus mean by saying “ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH”. (Matt. 28:18)

And finally, what does Jesus mean when he commands to baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST”? (Matt. 28:19)

Thanks, and God Bless

January 9, 2007 at 11:44 pm#36429