The Trinity Doctrine

[seekingtruth]

Quote (charity @ Jan. 06 2007,02:40)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 06 2007,06:40) While driving home I believe the Holy Spirit gave me a scripture to share. I know we all have read it before and many will say that it does not apply or I'm “adding to scripture”, but I believe it is the principle behind the example given in this scripture. Romans 14:1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to (understand more things and) eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, (understands less and) eats only vegetables. 3The man who (has more knowledge) eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who (understands less) does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. What “God” is, is definitely a “disputable matter” (over 500 pages on another thread). Why does one “eat everything”, because he has a better understanding, and why does one who is weak “not eat”, because he does not have as good of an understanding. I believe we are taking the trinity dis-agreement beyond what it should be, we are not saved by having a full understanding of what God is, but by what He did for us. As it says later in this same chapter “13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.” To me that would include quoting damnation verses to one another (seems like judgment to me). One side, or the other, or possible both, is wrong, let God sort it out. If you've given the truth as you believe it, you've done your job. May all who love the truth be blessed. Comfort Total righteous thoughts seekingtruth Not without understanding much suffering brought here charity

Thank you Charity,
Philippians 3:8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

It's funny we ask God to use us, then when life gets hard we ask why. When you learn to imbrace those hardships and truly thank God for them, for what He will accomplish through them, it opens up a whole new world.

It is not an easy road but the destination is worth it.

[Mercy]

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 06 2007,13:56)

Nothing changes…. I shake my head in wonder.  Truely it is a futile exercise.  It is all vanity.

I agree

[charity]

seekingtruth a man blessed by God

It is a blessing to understand that the riches of knowledge have to fail, and the searching has failed, and now all that remains is faith that the lord with mercy will reveal the truth to the heart on the day he is ready
In that rest comes, righteousness purifies and holds in patience; even still waiting for an answer abundance of knowledge without righteousness is wickedness and darkness, without understanding Murders of the poor in the faith. Still with a will to be somebody.
Looking closely and praising him we understand that he has brought us down to be nothing for he loves us.
And grace for darkness has lead us and now knowing the way it is now not a burden to follow, a rejoicing to suffer even, because I know what shall come soon after, I welcome suffering and head throw the fire.

Pro 16:8  Better [is] a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
Isa 40:28  Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.
Isa 40:29  He giveth power to the faint; and to [them that have] no might he increaseth strength.
Isa 40:30  Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
Isa 40:31  But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; [and] they shall walk, and not faint.

Faint now and come through faith alone, for forced fainting shall come on the world, and destress Matt 24

selah

[charity]

For any injured suffering pain

Pro 27:6 Faithful [are] the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy [are] deceitful.

A true friend has your soul at heart, for the day of sealing will not miss anyone out

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

[Worshipping Jesus]

ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

To all of the Arian viewers. The Spirit of the Lord God is one! For God is one with his Spirit.

We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of  God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit, being used in speaking of God dwelling in our Body the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These words are interchageable and mean one thing,

God dwells in us.

The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit divinely and unequelly and wonderfully joined together as ONE!

Whether it is speaking of the Father who walks in us or the Son or the Holy Spirit,

God dwells in us!

God = Father, Son And Holy Ghost!

This is scriptural!

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost  


Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:  

[Worshipping Jesus]

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CB, I want to thank you for responding politely with scripture. I would like to dig deeper into the scripture you opened with, to me it was your strongest case. Below I have responded to the scriptures you posted with how I see them supporting my position. Obviously we both interpret them differently otherwise we would be in agreement. Feel free to point out why you believe I would be wrong, I will listen (though I may not agree). Quote   Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus 6 Who being in very nature God (Jesus is the nature of God) did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (even though he had God's nature He still did not think equality was something available for Him)  7 but made himself nothing taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness (the previous statement about being in the nature of God must have been pre-incarnate) . 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place (He could only be exalted by someone greater) and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Some translations give a different take on it (the above was from an earlier post). Quote   Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.   “and this is the name whereby he shall be called”, in today's english “and He shall be known as Yhovah our righteousness”. Yhovah was the source of the sacrifice provided by Yesua, John and James were called sons of thunder in scripture, you can be named for attributes without being the item Quote   Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way. Scripture is clear that there is a “Holy Spirit” I posted previously “In my opinion, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “lieutenants” in a “Godhead”, manifestations of an infinite God for His interaction to His finite creations, Jesus to the corporeal creation, and the Holy Spirit to His Spiritual creation. In them is the Godhead a trinity of sorts but not of the type being taught.” I believe there is none like Jehovah (the Father) even the Son is only an image. (2 Corinthians 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” or Hebrew 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.) If your talking about the source of all things the Father has no equal and in my opinion this includes the Holy Spirit. Where in scripture do you find that that all three are equal? Quote   He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4. Acts 5:3   But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (his ultimate lie was to God but it was done through the Holy Spirit, if you lie to the representative, you lied to the one they represent.) Quote   2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.   It says we are the temple of the living God not we are temples of the living God. We are told elsewhere that we are the Body of Christ. I read this as “what agreement do we have with idols, together we are the temple of God who has said, “through Jesus I (God) will walk among them and be their God and they will be mine”. Quote   1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple. God's Spirit lives in you, and what is God's spirit except the Spirit that belongs to God Quote   The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34  with   Hebrews 10:15-17.          “      Psalm 95:7-11         with   Hebrews 3:7-11.          “      Isaiah 6:9, 10          with   Acts 28:25-28.          “      2 Samuel 23:2         with   2 Samuel 23:3 I have no arguments with the Son having the same attributes as the Father but it does not make Him equal to the Father and there are a number of verses I've posted earlier that are quite clear that the Father is greater then the Son. Quote   The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14 9:14   How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? ( this is best explained back a few verses “9:11 for if that which is being made useless [is] through glory, much more that which is remaining [is] in glory.” if the ashes which are useless bring glory how much more the blood of Christ who remains eternally also indicated in verse above 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Quote   Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” It is easy to see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio. I agree but that does not make all three equal.

seekingtruth

I have a few reservations about your post. But for time sake I would like to address one.

You say…

Quote

(Jesus is the nature of God)… and I believe there is none like Jehovah (the Father) even the Son is only an image.

Just food for thought. If you look in a mirror what do you see?

You see a reflection of yourself. The reflection is simply an image of you.

However, that image has no life. That image has no flesh and bones. That image has no substance or essence or nature. Its simply a dead lifeless reflection.

If you break the mirror then there is no image and yet you do not cease to exist nor did your image. So basically that image is not you. It is a reflection.

On the other hand if you get all dressed up and fix up your hair and shave and your wife sees you, then “hopefully” LOL, your wife will say honey you look Handsome today!

Now lets say you dont take a shower for 2 weeks and d
ont shave, and dont brush your teeth and put on raggedy clothes.

Your wife sees you and slaps you.

She just slapped your image.

If she slapped the mirror then she would only be slapping a reflection.

What happened. She seen you, she is looking at your image.

You can change your image.

You have substance and essence and nature. For she is looking at you.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

In him **Jesus** was life and the life was the light of men.

Jn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

We beheld his Glory!

Many want to read into the scriptures that Jesus is just a lifeless mirror of the Father, an image.

Hes some kind of a puppet on a string that the Father just leads around by his nose.

So they would say Jesus had no image of his own, or a reflection of his own.

He was the Son so we know he is not the Father.

So what is it? Jesus is not just the image or reflection of God, he is an exact duplicate or copy a twin if you will of the Father.

If Jesus was the Word/God then he also is a being in himself

Jn 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus left all the Glory that he had as God to humble himself become a servant taking on the nature or image of man.

The key is he humbled himself and left, he did not change his nature as deity but took on the nature of man as we take on the divine nature of Christ.

While we have divine nature we cannot share deity with him.

For this part is reserved for the Imogenes Son. We will not be participating in the recieving of worship found in Rev 5.

We become like him by being changed into his image, taking on some of his attributes.

But, does that mean we are not individuals and have our own image or reflection? No.

Jn 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

A close examination of these scriptures shows that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.

But, also it shows that the Father worked in Jesus, but Jesus also did the works.

The Father spoke through Jesus but Jesus also speaks.

I believe that when Jesus said…
“If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”

He meant just that. He is an exact image, copy, duplicate of the Father.

The Imogenes Son! The essence, the substance, the nature of God.

Jn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.

A human Father has a Son.
The Father is greater than the Son in position and rank.
The Son is equal to the Father in Substance, essence and nature.

All I am saying is I believe Jesus is more than just the Image of God.

Blessings

[david]

This post above, which he has put in about 5 of the trinity threads, I respond to in the “holy spirit” thread on about page 79, and then again on page 80 when he reposts most of it.

Unfortunately, his post proves nothing. Please go to the holy spirit thread on page 80 and respond to my post. What does it prove? How does it prove this?
What does Matthew 28:20 prove for example? That you can count to three? Congrats on that. But beyond that, does it prove that the holy spirit is God, or to be worshiped or equal with God or anything at all? And how?

[david]

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Jn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. A human Father has a Son. The Father is greater than the Son in position and rank. The Son is equal to the Father in Substance, essence and nature.

WJ, do people still fall for this?
If Jesus and Jehovah are one (and where's the holy spirit in this) and part of a trinity, then you have to also conclude that Jesus followers are part of the same trinity, for they too are “one,” as any Bible will bear out.

JOHN 17:21-22
“in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

So if you make the argument that Jesus and his Father are one in substance, essence, etc or whatever, you HAVE TO conclude the same thing of Jesus followers and Jesus–they too are “one” and apparently of the same essense, etc, all part of one giant trinity!

In good conscience, I don't see how you can use this scripture to support your beliefs knowing this. Or maybe you didn't know. Well, now you do.

[Cult Buster]

david

Quote

If Jesus and Jehovah are one (and where's the holy spirit in this)

                                                      JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit

Jer 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH)  : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Rev 22:9  worship God.
 

[Cult Buster]

david

Quote

But beyond that, does it prove that the holy spirit is God, or to be worshiped or equal with God or anything at all?  And how?

                                     JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit

Jer 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH)  : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Rev 22:9  worship God.
 

[Worshipping Jesus]

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This post above, which he has put in about 5 of the trinity threads, I respond to in the “holy spirit” thread on about page 79, and then again on page 80 when he reposts most of it. Unfortunately, his post proves nothing.  Please go to the holy spirit thread on page 80 and respond to my post.  What does it prove?  How does it prove this? What does Matthew 28:20 prove for example?  That you can count to three?  Congrats on that.  But beyond that, does it prove that the holy spirit is God, or to be worshiped or equal with God or anything at all?  And how?

David

Let me see if I get the picture!

Jesus and David walking together.

Jesus says…

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So david responds…

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Lord what does this prove that you can count to three?  Congrats on that.

So in other words David, Jesus made this statement for a reason, and it was to disprove the Arian belief that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not one!

Also it is to prove that there is a singular name for God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit now.

Jesus is that name!

The word for “Name” is a singular word David. Study it. It dosnt say in the “names” of.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

WJ, do people still fall for this? If Jesus and Jehovah are one (and where's the holy spirit in this) and part of a trinity, then you have to also conclude that Jesus followers are part of the same trinity, for they too are “one,” as any Bible will bear out. JOHN 17:21-22 “in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.” So if you make the argument that Jesus and his Father are one in substance, essence, etc or whatever, you HAVE TO conclude the same thing of Jesus followers and Jesus–they too are “one” and apparently of the same essense, etc, all part of one giant trinity! In good conscience, I don't see how you can use this scripture to support your beliefs knowing this.  Or maybe you didn't know.  Well, now you do.

David

Are you the Begotten Son? Are you the “Imogenes” Son? Are you the Eternal life.

Will you be in the throne in Rev 5?

[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
[11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
[12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
[14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

So there is a difference in the Imogenes Son and the many Sons!

Jesus is the Word that was with God and the Word that Was/is God?

You dont see no difference?

When Jesus said I and my Father are One, he was saying if you have seen Me, then you have seen the Father.

Can you say this David?

Phil 2:6
6]Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Do you deny these scriptures?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“Also it is to prove that there is a singular name for God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit now.

Jesus is that name!”

So in calling yourself “worshiping Jesus” you are showing that it is Jesus ALONE you now worship?

Such is the extreme of the path of deception you have walked.

[seekingtruth]

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All I am saying is I believe Jesus is more than just the Image of God. Blessings

I was quoting scripture

2 Corinthians 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

I too believe He is however more then an image in the mirror, even up to His having a will that was different from the Father (not my will but yours). He was a separate being.

I believe Yeshua is the greatest being in all that exists, with the exception of the Father. I also agree that if you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that beings in our corporeal existence can comprehend. but the Father is greater than that.

Jesus was around in the beginning, but there is no beginning to the eternal past, but there was a beginning to our creation. Jesus is the Son, the Father is the source of everything mentioned in scripture, everything that was created was done through the Son but the Father was the source.

I would appreciate it if you would provide the scriptures you feel prove that Jesus has existed from the eternal past.

Thank you.

[charity]

Hello seekingtruth

We know that faith is a substance of things hoped for and things that are not seen on earth
And we know that when our life is ready to be offered up to the lord at our last breath, we should need to have known in full confidence that we also as Christ have seen the father.

How then shall do this?

We know that we are commanded to take part in the first resurrection that the power of the second death is swallowed up before our departure.

And this is only by faith alone believing?

I ask all men

Were you Here?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This is before the lamb that shall come and lead these many nations before the throne to life giving waters, and the new creation began when he arrived, the graves opened at his last breath, many come out to preach, and we are to be born again of a good seed not a bad seed?

Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

I know this that it shall come to ears things that have never been heard or spoken of before, but only for they have been lost and hidden in past down lies and snares
The saints are Sent from God that all men shall receive a gospel of grace by substance of faith and know with confidence what took place in the heavens also at the time of Christ life and death on earth

Selah

[Worshipping Jesus]

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I was quoting scripture 2 Corinthians 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” I too believe He is however more then an image in the mirror, even up to His having a will that was different from the Father (not my will but yours). He was a separate being. I believe Yeshua is the greatest being in all that exists, with the exception of the Father. I also agree that if you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that beings in our corporeal existence can comprehend. but the Father is greater than that. Jesus was around in the beginning, but there is no beginning to the eternal past, but there was a beginning to our creation. Jesus is the Son, the Father is the source of everything mentioned in scripture, everything that was created was done through the Son but the Father was the source. I would appreciate it if you would provide the scriptures you feel prove that Jesus has existed from the eternal past. Thank you.

seekingtruth

Jn 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John didnt say…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word “came from God”, and the Word was God.

But John did say this….

I Jn 1:1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

The word “manifest” is phaneroo, which means;

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way, make actual and visible, realised.

Again this shows Jesus was made known, but did not have a beginning from the Father. He always was with the Father.

The word for “Eternal” is aionios, which means;

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Notice, Jesus does not have eternal life But Jesus *IS* the Eternal life!

He is the eternal life that we recieve. He had no beginning nor end. We had a beginning, but now have no end.

Jn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.

The word for “everlasting” is also aionios. Same word as eternal.

Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal [aionios]
life: and they are they which testify of me.

Thats because he is the Eternal life.

Jn 6:
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

Jn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

There is much more I hope this helps!

[charity]

No other like God

God dose not seem happy here in these scriptures
Wherefore God has said to us, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
And they will carry on with their Gods not understanding righteousness excepting not the creation that subdues the earth  from the beginning.

Isa 46:1 ¶ Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages [were] heavy loaden; [they are] a burden to the weary [beast].
Isa 46:2  They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
Isa 46:3 ¶ Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne* [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4  And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver [you].
Isa 46:5 ¶ To whom will ye* liken me, and make [me] equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 46:6  They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, [and] hire a goldsmith; and* he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
Isa 46:7  They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, [one] shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
Isa 46:8 ¶ Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to* mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9  Remember the former things of* old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] *none like me,
Isa 46:10  Declaring the *end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
**Selah** Isa 46:11  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; *I have purposed *[it], *I will also do it*.
Isa 46:12 ¶ Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that [are] far from righteousness:
Isa 46:13  I bring *near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

[charity]

The fire for Bel and his followers, these scriptures sounds like Matt 24

Jer 51:44  And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.
Jer 51:45 ¶ My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer 51:46  And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come [one] year, and after that in [another] year [shall come] a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
Jer 51:47  Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.

[Debra]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 06 2007,06:40)

While driving home I believe the Holy Spirit gave me a scripture to share. I know we all have read it before and many will say that it does not apply or I'm “adding to scripture”, but I believe it is the principle behind the example given in this scripture. Romans 14:1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to (understand more things and) eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, (understands less and) eats only vegetables. 3The man who (has more knowledge) eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who (understands less) does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. What “God” is, is definitely a “disputable matter” (over 500 pages on another thread). Why does one “eat everything”, because he has a better understanding, and why does one who is weak “not eat”, because he does not have as good of an understanding. I believe we are taking the trinity dis-agreement beyond what it should be, we are not saved by having a full understanding of what God is, but by what He did for us. As it says later in this same chapter “13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.” To me that would include quoting damnation verses to one another (seems like judgment to me). One side, or the other, or possible both, is wrong, let God sort it out. If you've given the truth as you believe it, you've done your job. May all who love the truth be blessed.

Hi seekingtruth
Thank you and praise be to God for your post.
I agree enough is enough, and we should go beyond dissagreements where possible, and respond to each other with respect first. There has always been division where God's Word ( our understanding Praise God,The Bible) is concerned, and not only amongst us Christians, look how many branches are coming of other reigions trees,why?
Why does being right matter so much to us?
Your right, we are not saved by our understanding of what God is, but by what He did for us.
God bless.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, You say “Also it is to prove that there is a singular name for God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit now. Jesus is that name!” So in calling yourself “worshiping Jesus” you are showing that it is Jesus ALONE you now worship? Such is the extreme of the path of deception you have walked.

NH

Jesus is the name by which all men are saved now! Not Father, thats a title.

We pray in Jesus name!

We are baptised in Jesus name!

We cast out devils in Jesus name!

We heal the sick in Jesus name!

We recieve the baptism in the Holy Spirit in Jesus name!

We Gather together in Jesus name!

We recieve little children in Jesus name!

We do miracles in Jesus name!

We give a cup of water in Jesus name!

We speak new tongues in Jesus name!

We take communion in Jesus name!

The way is narrow! Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life!

He said I am the door. John said  He that hath the Son hath the Father, and we should honor the Son even as we honor the Father.

Tell me NH. Is there any other name that we should Know?

There are many appalations for Father and Holy Spirit!

But there is One Name where all power in heaven and earth resides, and whereby all men shall be saved!

Do you know any other name we are to do these things?

I guess you could say I am a Jesus freak!!

Therfore Go ye into all the world…

Matt 28:18,19
KJV
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

NWT
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus.

The Apostles new it and baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit….JESUS!      

Acts 5:42
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

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