The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi ringo,

I decided to be more open about the truth after I was persecuted and I feel happier for doing so. :;):

The Messiah said 'It is not those who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?' Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!' (Matthew 7: 21-23)

March 13, 2004 at 10:41 pm#15659

Participant

Hello brothers,

I haven't been here for a while and I see that the conversation is talking about Trinitarians position on salvation.

Here is my take and I speak mainly from personal experience and I will try and match it with scripture if possible, without twisting it of course.

When I first came to God, I witnessed miracles almost on a daily basis. I recieved visions and many other wonderful things from God. As time went on, I was discipled by older people in the faith who believed that we must be tied to a denomination and believe in the Trinity doctrine.

I foolishly and naively excepted their words and lived by them. During this stage of my life I still recieved visions and witnessed miracles, although it seem to become less as time went on and I started to feel my zeal and faith waning before my very eyes. I repented for trusting in man as I knew this was where I erred, but I was not sure to what extent the input of mans teaching had tainted my perception.

Eventually I recieved 2 dreams that puzzled me, but I believe that I have the explantion for them today. The first dream placed me in a prison, like a cage at a zoo and inside this cage were other christians. I excepted my prison in the dream, but after a while I started to wonder why we were all here. This dream actually annoyed me because I had nothing but good things from God up to this point and I couldn't figure this dream out. I knew that the dream was alluding to something that wasn't good.

Much later I read a book written by Rick Joyner of a vision about a prison. It described my dream and he said that the prison is actually the traditions and doctrines of men. I believe this to be the case as I held this view prior to reading it.

The next dream placed me in an army of other believers. We were about to attack a castle/fortress of the enemy. The enemy in response only sent out servants to run down a hill and away from the castle and us, in order to entice us to follow.

Today I believe this is representitive of a satanic stronghold, and the army being the army of the Lord. This stronghold is built on the traditions of men and the doctrines of men and demon. Many have built on her in vain, but she will be judged and paid back double for what she has done.

After these dreams, and when I read scripture, I started to notice the Trinity didn't seem to stack up with what I was reading, and deep down I developed a problem with this doctrine. I thought that perhaps I was falling away from the truth at times, but I had to be faithful to the revelations of God's spirit and scripture. It was hard for me back then, as I didn't understand how this deception could exist. Yet there is ample warning in scripture of deceptions that would abound.

So I decided to question this doctrine and as expected I recieved this staunch attitude of 'do not question this as you may be in danger of herecy' . Due to the fear of man, which I thought may have been the fear of God, I gave up.

10 years later I read a writing on the Internet where someone actually had the courage to say what I was feeling in my heart all these years. I then decided to check out the scriptures that talk about God in Gospelnet.com and I read them one after another. What developed was a clear understanding that the conviction I had in my heart all these years was correct. Scripture said the same thing and it was clear. I couldn't ignore this understanding any longer.

It then took a lot of courage to make a writing about the Trinity and I expected to be labelled a heretic and to be rejected of all men, even believers. But I felt that I had to obey what God was showing me. In time I realised that I was not the only one who had trouble with the Trinity doctrine. It become apparent that many other believers were questioning this very thing and others thought this idea was strange when they first heard it. I have to date received emails from people all over the world and congratulating me on my Trinity writing that sparked this particular discussion in the first place.
( https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm )

But I also get these emails that spurt of all the scriptures that seem to support the Trinity when they actually do not. It seems like the same email sometimes.

So coming from my experience and my understanding of scripture, my take is that God used me when I believed in the Trinity. Why? because the foundational doctrine of the Church, is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah. I had repented of my sins and I had been baptized in water too.

Now it wasn't as if I was going around saying that we must believe in the Trinity. No I did not. I believe that I preached the right things and I had a great zeal to serve God. But when it got down to a theological discussion about the nature of God, I would parrot off the Trinity deception like a good little boy who wanted to please his teacher.

Anyway the same Spirit that gave me dreams and revelations and even did miracles through my hands was and is the same Spirit that leads me into all truth today. The promptings of the Spirit lead me to see mans teaching from the truth and I got there eventually, although I am sure that I still have much further to go. I only need to remain open and honest.

So at what point was I saved. It was the moment that God's Spirit lived inside me and the moment that I become a living stone filled by his Spirit. From there, it was a journey of being led into all truth against the doctrines of demons and the lies of man. This journey is not over yet as I am still in this world, but not of it.

So I was saved and being used by God even when the Trinity was a pillar of my faith. But the truth of this matter is that a believer can believe who Jesus is and be filled with God's Spirit and yet, can still do the works of the Evil One (via the flesh). Jesus rebuked Satan once when talking to his own disciple Peter. So when we finally take off this body and receive the new, we will be perfect in body soul and spirit. For now the spirit and flesh struggle against each other and this is normal for all believers including our father Paul who spelled this battle out for us to understand our own struggles.

So are all Trinitarians saved? No, just as not all of any particular denomination, doctrine or outward appearance are all saved. As ringo111 pointed out, we can be used mightily in one way and yet fail miserably in others. This is the human experience coupled with the experience we have in God.

Now some Trinitarians who condemn their brothers for not believing the way they do and who teach and build on mens creeds, could be servants of Satan, or they could also be servants of God, only decieved in some areas. I think both are possible. As it is written: “Stumbling Blocks are inevitiable and many will stumble over them, but woe to the men who lay them.” This is what the Trinity doctrine is. To many it is a stumbling block and to others it is outright idolatory.

If we look at the Whore of Babylon in Revelation, we see the following words: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;” So yes even God's people can be trapped inside her. She is the mother of false religion.

I trust that all those who are lead by the Spirit of God learn truth by the day and will eventually come into all truth by that same spirit. We should be gracious and understand the work of God in men as God is patient and not willing that any should perish. We should in this way be like minded and serve one another shining the true light to all men and serving with a grateful and humble heart. That God may be glorified in you, resulting in God being praised because of your witness. Such a man is a jewel in the crown of our Lord Jesus Christ.

March 13, 2004 at 10:48 pm#15660

Participant

I have created a page based on the writings of some 1st and 2nd century leaders. They are rather interesting in that they teach that the Father is the one true God, yet Trinitarians often quote these writers out of context by saying they were teaching the Trinity.

Earlier on, Global quoted many of these writers, yet when we see what they were really saying, it only shows what they Church really believed and what we should believe today.

Surely the great falling away has happened and the Mystery of Babylon is evident.

Here is the page:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-6.htm

March 14, 2004 at 1:09 am#15661

Participant

Quote

Hi ringo,

I decided to be more open about the truth after I was persecuted and I feel happier for doing so.

Which is precisly my point-

We are judged according to what we have done. My main point is- Jesus said the merciful acts are rightousness-
The rightousness to surpass the pharasees is To give to the poor. Trinitarians that Do such things- They will obtain mercy-

Evil doers!!!!- is the phrase used in that passage- Get away from me you evil doers!!!!

He did not say Get away from me you who agknowledged i came From God- But mistakenly think i am GoD.

He shows what an evil doer is.

*These people were once entrusted with such power, because of their obediance- but then as Jesus says- any branch within me that does not produce good fruit is cut off and thrown into the fire- These are people who think because they once were right with GoD will always be right with GoD. Sound familiar??? – Its the once saved always saved doctrine- which is a belief which leads many into complacent evil living.
And holds people back from even confessing their sins- with the mistaken belief that GoD, will be displeased with them for not believing what they think is a promise from GoD, that they are forgiven for everything they will ever do- which is a lie. Because it says confess your sins to GoD and he will be cleansed of all unriteousness. If you were not ment to confess- then the disciples would not have written it.

March 14, 2004 at 5:46 am#15662

Participant

Nice Testimony t8 ^_^

March 14, 2004 at 7:45 pm#15663

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2004,16:41)

If God instructs people to come out of the Whore of Babylon and they refuse to come out of her God will still keep his word. Those who come out of her are the saints.

Those who don't eventually come out of the Whore of Babylon are not the saints and will pay the price for their sins.
We must live in love and be a light. We are only saved as long as we continue live in accordance with God's word.

March 14, 2004 at 10:34 pm#15664

Participant

to messageofsalvation,

What you say is true, but they have to know who she is in order to come out of her. God usually sends prophets before judgement, so that the people have a choice and understand what is happening. This is God's mercy and he shows mercy before judgement. It is usually the people that have heard the message and are stubborn and hard of heart that pay the price.

March 15, 2004 at 1:29 am#15665

Participant

to messageofsalvation

These are the only sins in which people are thrown out-

Everything else is your position in heaven- as Jesus says

Matt 5
17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. “

*Now look, here are the sins as listed in revelations-

Revelation 22:15
14″Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

*But in all this rermember The merciful will obtain mercy- and they share in the same promise as us- If you condem them You are ConDeming yourself!!!

*Just because they dont understand exactly who GoD is- Is not a reason that GoD will send them to hell.

*If they obey the commands- The ones about Mercy, they will obtain mercy- Plus they have been given the Baptism of Forgivness of sins- and pray that GoD forgives them- Id say its mainly church leaders are the most likly to go hell- Because those who teach are Judged more harshly.

*And this about Babalon- OMG- Show me this Babalon you speak of in Revelation- Everyone can call many places and peoples through history babalon-

*T8 prooved what i said- that GoD works through Trinity people and rewards them- Do not be decieved!!!

*Who is telling you that trinity people go to hell for being a believer in the trinity?? If you have no-one telling you- Then id say youve allowed a bitter heart to grow within you and given Satan a foothold. Because telling a trinitarian they are going to hell for believing the trinity is wrong and working with Satans plans!!

You are Just as blinded as the trinitarian if you continue to say this, even though you see the truth about GoD- Just as the Pharasees knew the truth about GoD, and taught according to the seat of moses- They were hypocrites!!!

*The trinity is a wrong belief- But it is not by only believing the trinity that they are in danger of hell. It is ifthey, because of theyre belief, take ungodly actions against other believers, who do not believe the lie of the trinity- who have the same promise as them. And the same with anyone that Does the same to a trinitarian.

They are not idolitors!!! They believe they are Worshipping GoD- The one GoD!!! So it is not idolitary for them!!!!

Do you think GoD is stupid???

Didnt Jesus say it is mercy and not sacrifice that i require??

*Yes trinity beleivers should be corrected- in due time they may- This is almost about a 1700 year old teaching- entrenched in deception- Even if miracles where shown from GoD they would not forsake this teaching.

*how are you to enter a reasonable discussion with someone who doesnt even question theyre own beliefs??

*It is by encouraging our brothers and sisters- to pray to GoD, That his thruth be made known- That theyre own truth be taken away- It is by encouraging them to make theyre faith active that will win this. Encourage them to get sponser Kids- Lend to the poor is lending to the lord. Its using what little you have, to be rewarded by GoD- ^_^

*If you can take the scorn, If you believe its GoD's will to correct them, Thats cool. Just make sure your not condeming people who are wrong in a belief that does not condem them to hell.

March 15, 2004 at 9:45 pm#15666

Participant

Quote (ringo111 @ Mar. 14 2004,19:29)

The trinity is a wrong belief- But it is not by only believing the trinity that they are in danger of hell. It is ifthey, because of theyre belief, take ungodly actions against other believers, who do not believe the lie of the trinity- who have the same promise as them. And the same with anyone that Does the same to a trinitarian.

They are not idolitors!!! They believe they are Worshipping GoD- The one GoD!!! So it is not idolitary for them!!!!

Do you think GoD is stupid???

Ringo,

The trinity is a false belief. Since God is not a Trinity it can only be idolatry. Come on Ringo. If someone comes along and says God is five persons or a block of wood that too is idolatry even if that is what they accept as their true god. A Trinitarian pastor once said about the Trinity, if I am not right then I am in idolatry, and he was quite right in saying that.

Ringo, God is not stupid it is the idolators who are stupid:

'The whole lot of them are brutish and stupid: the teaching given by these Nothings is void of sense. But Yahweh is the true God. He is the living God, the everlasting King. '
(Jeremiah 10:8-10).

The apostle Paul wrote this to the Corinthians and it is something you should remember Ringo:

But the serpent, with his cunning, seduced Even, and I am afraid that in the same way your ideas may get corrupted and turned away from simple devotion to Christ. Because any newcomer has only to proclaim a new Jesus, different from the one that we preached or you have only to receive a new spirit, different from the one you have already received, or a new gospel, different from the one you have already accepted – and you welcome it with open arms. As far as I can tell, these arch-apostles have nothing more than I have….leaving no room with those people who are looking for an opportunity to claim equality with us in what they boast of. These people are counterfeit apostles, they are dishonest workmen diguised as apostles of Christ. There is nothing unexpected about that; if Satan himself goes disguised as an angel of light there is no need to be surprised when his servants, too disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. They will come to the end they deserve.

In Paul's day there were counterfeit servants who claimed to worship the one God and follow the same Christ as true believers. They even produced miracles.Yet these arch apostle ministers of Satan.

Just because the Trinity is not considered idolatry by a Trinitarian does not mean it is not idolatry. Just because an adulterer doesn't feel in his own eyes that he is commiting adultery that does not mean it is not adultery. Do not be deceived.

We are called to bring the correct Good News and the correct Christ to people, but we must not be taken in by those who are deceived.

If you believe they are not idolators then you too are deceiving yourself. Maybe you have been influenced to much by your association with them if you feel so strongly that they are not in idolatry.

Paul said to the Thessalonans:

But when the Rebel comes, Satan will set to work; there will be all kinds of miracles and a deceptive show of signs and portents and everything evil that can deceive those who are bound for destruction because they would not grasp the love of the truth which could have saved them. The reason why God is sending a power to delude them and make them believe what is untrue is to condemn all who refuse to believe in the truth and chose wickedness instead.

God uses his servants to call Trinitarians out of idolatry. It is Satan who keeps them in their delusion. You may find this hard to accept but it is the truth!

March 16, 2004 at 4:55 am#15667

Participant

Yes I think the Trinity doctrine is idolatory for some, but most christians I come into contact with, do not preach the Trinity doctrine at all. They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah and confusingly they accept that he is also God in substance, but they confess to not understanding this.

The point is that most believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God, but they truly do not understand the Trinity doctrine, but believe it to be true becasue everyone else around them believes it to be true.

I think that yes they are confused, but they believe the truth about who Jesus is and excpet the false teaching of the Trinity of which most do not understand anyway. That is why I hardly ever here them mention it.

I am always suspicious of people who preach the Trinity and who defend it vigorously for they are servants of tradition rather than servants of the truth, but I find that most christians don't talk about it in my experience at least.

So are they to be accountable for a doctrine that they do not understand, yes, but are they condemned if they believe in it when they do not even understand it, whilst believing and understanding that Jesus is the Son of God and their Messiah? I do not think so personally, but I am open to correction.

Surely we and Trinitarians all believe that their is a Father and a Son and we believe in the Spirit of God. But some are taught that all 3 are God and we know the truth that there is one God and the others come from him. So does such a difference condemn a man to idolatory or does it preserve the stronghold of the enemy to keep the creeds and denominations built on her, in tack, or both.

There of course must be a reason that Satan promotes such a doctrine and my guess is that it helps christians to become law breakers by acknowledging a triune God rather than 1 God. But most christians I know at least do not talk about the Trinity, so are they condemned in believing in a doctrine that sits in the back of their faith because they really do not understand it? I also find that many who have some understanding of this doctrine are also not really interested in talking about it anyway. So how much of this doctrine is really a foundation of one's faith must be considered from a one to one basis rather than bunching them all together and condemning the lot.

I think that if we could see the heart of all men as Jesus can, then we would see that there are children of Abraham who currently believe in this doctrine. It would be assumed that such people would accept truth when it was presented to them clearly.

For there is the true foundation and then there are false foundations. But some men belong to the true foundation, but they have also built on other foundations, such as the Trinity and their denomination. Such people mean well, but they are decieved in these works and they will recieve no reward for their labours on these other foundations. But it is possible that they may still be on the true foundation and will be saved but as one escaping through the fire perhaps.

March 16, 2004 at 5:11 am#15668

Participant

I was talking to a christian the other day and I decided to probe deeply into his beliefs. I asked him what was the foundation of true faith and he mentioned repentance, baptism, confession of who Jesus is and then he mentioned the Trinity. I then asked him to explain the Trinity and he said to me that Jesus said that he was one with the Father and that if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father. So he used this to reason that Jesus was God himself because he was alluding to him being the Father.

I then replied to him that his particular belief in the Trinity was judged as herecy along time ago by Trinitarians and that he would have been a hereitc if he lived back then. Realising that what I said may be true, he asked me if he would have been killed for this belief and I replied that I do not know, but it may have been possible.

He reflected on this situation and I could see that he thought that the system that condemned him, had to have been flawed as he was surely a true believer.

My point to this discussion was to find out what he beleived and then to challenge his belief. I also wanted to show him how corrupt the system that he serves really is. I also asked him to show me certain scriptures and how they taught his belief. I could see that he was agitated and I really had to wonder if this man really loved the truth at all.

Later he told me that he was looking for peace and happiness and that division or challenging one's belief didn't fit in with his idea of what the Kingdom of God is about. So I could see his reason for belonging to a denomination and that was for friendship and peace.

He then started talking about a friend of mine and how much of a bad person he was for challenging him many years ago. I could see that this person I was talking to was a product of the system whose foundation is the Trinity. I could see that he took comfort in his relationship with his pastor and the system itself seemed to be more of an assurance of his faith than all this testing your beliefs with scripture stuff.

In the end I was not even sure if this man was a child of Abraham and I can see that many who say Lord Lord will not enter into his rest. But I still think that we cannot judge by the outward appearance and God judges each person individually and so should we.

March 16, 2004 at 7:15 am#15669

Participant

Dear friends,

Trinitarians are taught that the Trinity is the foundation of Christian belief. The apostle John says that 'no lie can come from the truth'. He also says in 1 John 4:6 'But we are children of God, and those who know God listen to us, and those who are not of God refuse to listen to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of falsehood'.

I believe the words of the apostle John: 'those who are not of God refuse to listen to us'.

If we are very open about the truth we will see much clearly.

We are told in Revelation 22:15: 'These others must stay outside: dogs, fortune-tellers, and fornicators, and murders, and idolaters, and everyone of false speech and false life.'

March 16, 2004 at 7:26 am#15670

Participant

March 16, 2004 at 8:36 pm#15671

Participant

Yes this is true, but many Christians who are caught up in this doctrine do not understand it. They can see the Father and the Son as 2 persons and they acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God and the Christ and they acknowledge repentance as well. Would God condemn every Christian who in addition to the requirements also believes that Jesus is God as well, even though they cannot understand it or explain it.

Trinitarians are very confused between identity and nature. Jesus is divine in nature because he came from the Divine, but he is not that Divine in identity. This is where they get confused and John 1:1 is interpretted by them as Jesus being that God in identity when it clearly is not saying that.

Would God condemn all who hold to the true foundation and also hold to the wrong teaching that Jesus is the Divine rather than being divine? It seems like and easy error to make especially if it is taught as essential.

I am not so sure that God would be so hard about this, but I think that God would judge a man for idolatory if he understands the Trinity and worships that Trinity, prays to that Trinity by name that is.

In some ways Trinitarians believe that God's nature/essence/spirit is God and that nature/essence has 3 persons. But God is one and to all who he shares his nature with, become divine or partake in the divine nature.

When I believed in the Trinity I know that I had salvation and God used me as much as I would allow him. But my Trinity belief was a part of my faith that I didn't really understand and I accepted it because I thought that I had to. But I truly did not serve the Trinity or worship the Trinity, I use to pray to the Father in Jesus name, as Jesus taught us to. I think that I was not condemned for my belief and I am sure that we all believe in some error somewhere. But had I taught the Trinity and it was the central part of my faith and I served the Trinity etc, then perhaps then I would have been an idolator.

March 16, 2004 at 10:37 pm#15672

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2004,14:36)

But had I taught the Trinity and it was the central part of my faith and I served the Trinity etc, then perhaps then I would have been an idolator.

If a Trinitarian says they worship the Trinity, three persons as God Almighty then its idolatry. Whether they understand what they worship is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not they have rejected God when he tells them that the Trinity is a lie. You see God can speak to anyone. When God speaks to a Trinitarian personally to tell them that the Trinity is wrong many of them are guilty of looking upon him as the spirit of the devil. This in itself will be enough to condemn them if they do no renounce their false belief. God in no way could be considered hard but just. I have met Trinitarians who have told me they do not care whether or not they understand the Trinity but worship it all the same.

Trinitarians worship three persons as God. They believe that they are worshipping the Father, Son and a third person (who in fact does not exist which is therefore idolatry).

I have never met a Trinitarian who will say they do not worship the Trinity. If they say that they worship the Trinity then they are not true Christians.

God will have mercy on those who repent of their false belief, and God will have given everyone one of them an opportunity to do this at some stage. God has not changed since the days when he led the nation of Israel out of Egypt.

For those who refuse to believe that the Trinity is wrong it is case that

'By hearing you will hear, And will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, And will in no way perceive:

13:15 For this people's heart has grown callous, Their ears are dull of hearing, They have closed their eyes; Or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their heart, And should turn again; And I would heal them.'

March 17, 2004 at 12:31 am#15673

Participant

t8 ^^;;

Quote

How sad for the one you talked to – Jesus was in GoDs image- Just like us- and said only what GoD told him to say- Jesus prayed that we would also be one – So if it means Jesus is GoD then we are GoD aswell. So sad.

Yes, How many people actually want trueth??? Im not sure….
Those who defend the trinity pose as if they want the truth, then with heard hearts tear us down.
Hmm, Well, I feel like living again, it took so long- I almost gave up- Take heart trueth lovers- Lovers of The true GoD-
GoD will repay- Lets strengthen and encourage eachother.

The difference between idolitary and the trinity is- That , The true GoD is apart of trinity- In fact they think that the trinity is the true GoD- The GoD of israel, They are mixed in confusion- and especially with our language messing up allot of things. Im sure GoD overlooks such matters in the end. As they still teach mercy- in parts.

March 17, 2004 at 1:07 am#15674

Participant

Hey Messageofsalvation. *_*

Quote

If a Trinitarian says they worship the Trinity, three persons as God Almighty then its idolatry.

See the problem here is Trinitarians think different things, some totally disagree with the concepts of the trinity, yet call GoD a trinity, a common trinitarian view is that Three persons are not persons at all, but personalities(substance)- Contradiction in terms i know , but non the less, this is theyre expressed belief if told that the true meaning of the trinity Is in fact Idolitary.
When faced with this very biblical fact that GoD is One (person) and is not three people- if they listen and think about it, past calling you a heretic. They then exchange the word person, for substance- to make it more articulate and mysterious, they make GoD seem like an object that can be melted or choped apart- which makes out that GoD is mentally confused about who he is-
Basically they think GoD is a deceitfull Scitsofrenic- who has nothing better to do but confuse people into hating and killing eachother. Otherwise expressed as, what they call a “Mystery” – which means, they cannot back it up by scripture so they just accept some rediculous teaching that seperates those who believe in the message about GoD.

I have felt GoD's presence in trinity churches- angels are all around trinity churches- I have a friend that see's them-
I was taught by trinitarians as a child- and GoD out of their message- There is one GoD, Its amazing – Go see what they teach the little ones, They never teach the trinity- Not as far as ive seen- The best messages are the ones given to little children.

But this , Like the pharasee's May be them Supplying true believers with true teachings while they themselves are faulse. But not all Pharasee's disbelieved Jesus.

But yes, maybe GoD is allowing them to be protected For a while, and experiance his power- In hope that they will see what is right- Ive heard open prophecies in churches- one church i went to , somone out the back was propheciing- “I gave up my life!!! Why dont you give up yours!!!??!!”
When i heard this, I was like- wow, thats Jesus- I felt the power of the words, But next to no-one in the church payed any attention. I personally believe GoD will overlook the belief of the trinity- As far as this-
If they do not do what is evil-

But even if they do, The merciful will obtain mercy- <,,,

Quote

GoD has mercy on the merciful

Please look at this and keep into account in your Judgment-
I think you need a better understanding of the mercy of our GoD

Everything you believe Does not have to be perfect to enter the Kingdom of GoD.

Now this is what is meant by merciful, not that you should accept sin and say it is not- Or call trueth a lie, No!!!

This is what Jesus calls mercy

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

*This is a worshiper who worships in spirit

Romans 12:1
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship.

James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Jude 1:22
Be merciful to those who doubt;

Matthew 25
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37″Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40″The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44″They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45″He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

*You see, Jesus Doesnt list peoples beliefs here- He lists what they have done-
The ones who were merciful, as Jesus describes mercy- are given mercy- “What you have done to the least of these you have done to me”

*Many trinitarian churches take ahold of merciful works, and will be rewarded.

I REALLY THINK YOU'LL BENEFIT FROM READING MY POST IN “IS Hell Eternal??”

Also please take these scriptures into account.

This is from my post in “Is hell eternal??” It would be better if you read the whole post in that forum, as i am only taking the relevent parts ofr this discussion.

This means there is a chance for someone who is in hell to get out because of his life- because of his actions. (only because jesus is the attoning sacrifice, and chooses who shall enter his Kingdom)

This is my backup- for this reasoning.
Ive added the line to show he was in fact telling this to a pharisee.

Luke 14

1One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. 2There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy.

12Then Jesus sa
id to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

He says they will be repaid. At the reserection. Meaning- They can go to hell for theyre indulgent life- For not believing in Jesus, But then When Death and hades are emptied, Be repaid.

Once again Another scripture. To back this statment.

Luke 16:9
9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

In view of these scriptures, what do you think???

*atm (At the moment), Im not sure if hardcore trinitarians will escape hell, Hell is temporary, and then there is the Final Judgment, where, they will be rewarded if they have done the above acts. But so will an unbeliever, so yeah.

*It pays just do set your heart on what is right ^_^

Im enjoying this debate- I like being challenged with scripture-

laterz :laugh:

March 17, 2004 at 6:34 pm#15675

Participant

Quote (ringo111 @ Mar. 16 2004,19:07)

You see liars are very clever at twisting their words. This is what Trinitarians are doing. God is not three personalities or three persons so it is still idolatry.

Many Trinitarians will switch between the terms when it suits them. Yet if their Pastor says he is a person. They go back and agree with them, and that is hypocrisy.

If a man or woman says they are worshipping God but also worship another thing as their one God then they are deceiving themselves because they are worshipping an idol. If a man worships a tree as God and believes also that Father, and the son are this one God that man is still in idolatry. It would be difficult for you to accept that Trinitarians are idol worshippers because of your background.

You cannot mix the worship of God with the worship of other things as God. This is idolatry.

You see Trinitarians are double talkers like Satan,the Father of lies. I've seen Trinitarians do it time and time again when I've challenged them. Ringo you are trying to justify their actions personally I would not.

You said

they make GoD seem like an object that can be melted or choped apart- which makes out that GoD is mentally confused about who he is-

that clearly smells of idolatry i.e. 'they make GOD seem like an object that can be melted or choped apart'.

March 17, 2004 at 9:51 pm#15676

Participant

I am glad that this conversation is taking place as I believe that we need to talk about those who believe this doctrine and where they stand.

I would like to note here that those who believe in the Trinity actually worship the Father and believe him to be God, but it is the additional part that is wrong. Jesus and the Holy Spirit also being 2 persons who are God.

Now Israel worhipped the true God, but at times they also worshipped additional gods and even idols made with human hands. But God never gave up on Israel and they were still his chosen people were they not?

Now if we look at the history of Israel and the Church, you will find that the Church has fallen in the same ways that Israel did, so it just goes to show you how many really learn from history.

Israel wanted a human king and the churches want a human at the top whether it be a single pastor (which is not biblical) or a pope. Israel's price for this King was a tithe and other costs, and so we see the same thing in these denominations. Tithing keeps the system rolling along.

Now Israel certainly committed idolatory and at times they have been judged harshly, but they were always his people. Same with us, the children of God can still commit murder, adultery and idolatory, but God gives us chances to repent for he is truly merciful. God send prophets first to warn the people before he cuts people off. E.g David committed adultery, Moses murdered someone and Israel worshipped a golden calf made with their own hands.

Perhaps we can understand the words in Revelation “Come out of her my people for her sins have piled up to heaven” & “she is the Mother of all harlots”.

So Israel worshipped other gods and become harlots themselves at times and God sent prophets for them to repent. So that they would know their error, rather than being cut of in ignorance.

So if Israel committed idolatory and the Church does too, then surely God will not give up on his people, but he will warn his people first. Perhaps the message to come out of her is near. Perhaps it is a message for today.

March 18, 2004 at 1:50 am#15677