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Oxy,
Why can't you answer any of my questions?
I've asked you about 40 troubling questions…troubling for anyone who believes the holy spirit is part of a trinity.
You have yet to answer one.So neither will I answer your 2 questions.
Oxy, if you truly have God's holy spirit, perhaps it will lead you to the scriptures, to the scriptures I have shown and to show me why I am wrong.
So far, it has not.david
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God
Titus 2:13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh
Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God will last for ever and ever and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God has set you above your companions
Scripture does not seem to have a problem with calling Jesus, God, but the only scripture I could find that in anyway could indicate that the Son is equal to the Father was
John 5:18 because of this, then, were the Jews seeking the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Jesus therefore responded and said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth;
However Jesus did not say he was equal to the Father, the Jews did. To the contrary Jesus seemed to reply with a statement on how He was not equal to the Father “not able to do anything of himself”.
Can any supporter of the trinity provide scripture(s) that shows the Son (or the Holy Spirit) being equal to the Father?
What I'm trying to understand is, does the term “God” = the infinite Father, or is “God” a term (possibly a title) referring to the Father's interaction with us through His Son and Spirit, and as the source it includes the Father also?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,05:58) Quote As you have pointed out before, the apostles baptised in Jesus name because His name was above all others. I can concede that without problem. That being the case and Jesus being the revealing of YHWH and the perfect expresion of God's breath in a human on the earth i can say this.
Notice that all the terms in this verse are Titles and not proper names. no personal names are use here, but specific titles are used and the article is used appropriately to indicate those specific titles. this does not personofy any of those things listed.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
It is curious that of all the ones that do not list the article you would hang your hat on one of the few that seems to do so. Are you looking for proof of your doctrine or for the truth in scripture?
M42
So you say that Jesus was not making a distinction here is that right?
Throw out the scripture my friend, because according to your interpretation Jesus is just wasting his words!
Why would Jesus catagorically put the Holy Spirit in there with the Father and Himself?
Was it a waste of words or did it mean anything?
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Again in response to your quote….
Quote You have also never accepted the fact that in the Greek, the article “the” preceeding the term “Holy Spirit” is not there. This again rejects the personification of God’s Holy breath. Was your quote intentionally mis-leading?
Here is a scripture that has the definate article before Holy “Pnuema”?
So your argument of the definate article holds no weight!
Let me show you again.
The Greek reads:“eiV to onoma tou PatroV kai tou Uiou kai tou Hagiou PneumatoV”
“in the name the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.”The definite article “tou” (the) before Son and Holy Ghost indicates that they are all different things or persons. The grammatical rule in Greek for determining whether a single thing or person is meant, or different things or persons is meant, when “and” appears, is called the “Granville Sharp rule.” The basic rule is as follows:
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first.” {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament” (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}”
BTW. Here are those personal attributes again, maybe you can explain to me how the Holy Spirit is not personal.
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.
God = Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these three are One!
REad your own quote on the meanings. According to your own source the article is used to distiguish between things. I agree. It is distinguishing between titles. these ae not personal names but titles used to describe God. The personification of these titles comes from yur preconcieved ideas of the Trinity. you are forsefitting scripture again.
your own scholar says it is persons or things. these are not personal names, but titles THINGS.I conceded that baptism in Jesus name was proper according to Him having the highest name. Notice Jesus says not in the names (plural) as if this was multiple persons bu7t in the name (singular)
What is the name?
Jesus of course!
From a hHebew standpoint Jesus was the Father in that He perfectly revealed Him to us. He is the breath of God in His being made a life giving breath of God.
And of course He is the son.All titles and distinguished by the article. they deserve no more to be personified then if I said the Apple, the orange, and the peach. they have the article. do they deserve to be called persons?
Quote I'd rather discuss this in the holy spirit thread. (I dislike the fact that there are 9 threads on the trinity all with duplicate conversations.) But, if you look at these “personal attributes” that apparently prove personality, isn't it interesting that about 15 of them could be used to prove that the Bible is a person!
These “attributes” that may or may not prove personage might be:
1. Personification.
2. Proof of personage.Since there are so many other ways the holy spirit are spoken of which don't allow for it to be a person, then option 1 is the only one that logic allows.
(For a list of these things, see “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” which is in the holy spirit thread, somewhere between pages 65-67.)M42
Sad! Why are you so set on proving Gods Spirit is not personal?
Ill tell you why! Its because like everyone else who deny the trinitarian view, to accept the Holy Spirit as a Person would mean he has to be God.
God is a Spirit my friend is his Spirit not personal?
Do you no of any Angel or demon or any other living Spirit that has no personality? Why would you reduce Gods Spirit to just a mere force or power?
Quote REad your own quote on the meanings. According to your own source the article is used to distiguish between things. I agree. It is distinguishing between titles. these ae not personal names but titles used to describe God. The personification of these titles comes from yur preconcieved ideas of the Trinity. you are forsefitting scripture again.
your own scholar says it is persons or things. these are not personal names, but titles THINGS.I conceded that baptism in Jesus name was proper according to Him having the highest name. Notice Jesus says not in the names (plural) as if this was multiple persons bu7t in the name (singular)
What is the name?
Jesus of course!
From a hHebew standpoint Jesus was the Father in that He perfectly revealed Him to us. He is the breath of God in His being made a life giving breath of God.
And of course He is the son.All titles and distinguished by the article. they deserve no more to be personified then if I said the Apple, the orange, and the peach. they have the article. do they deserve to be called persons?
M42
So the Father is a thing?
The Son is a thing?
And the Holy Spirit is a thing?
I suppose you would say “Jesus, you do not mean to use these titles to distinguish between the Father who is a title or the son who is a title or the Holy spirit who is a title, surely not Jesus?
What you should say Jesus is “Go ye therefore baptising them in the name of Jehovah and Jesus and the force of God”
II Peter 3:16
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,06:15) Quote If one reads John 1 in the Greek and puts motives and intentions in the place of “Word” it makes perfect sense. M42
Explain this using your human logic.
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?
The Beloved John was there and saw this Word Made flesh, he saw him and touched him!
I think I would rather belive him!
You say –
M42
Explain this using your human logic.Response –
Here it is with the right terms applied –
Jn 1:
1. In the beginning was the motive and intentions of God. His plan. His intentions had been from the beginnig with Him. His motives and intentions are the very expression of who he is.
2. All the previous things I mentioned were with God from the beginning.
14. And the plan of God came to fruition. And we beheld that fullfilled plan in the Glory of the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth.You say –
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?response – No, but you can handle and touch the manefestation of God’s motive and intentions. This has been my point all along. Jesus was the manefestation of the plan, motive and intention of God. John is saying the same thing as John 1.
Here it is again –1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the plan (logos) of life;
2 And this is how we touched it. It was manifested to us. the plan was shown to us in the person of Jesus Christ. We are witnesses of the manifestation of the plan of life and can show you that eternal life that was planned by God from the beginning.
— As a side note, try force fitting the name Jesus into verse 1. “and our hands have handled, of the Jesus of life; —– It does not work!
you say –
I think I would rather belive him!Fine, let’s believe John – From the book of Revelation, writtten by John.
Revelation chapter 1:2 and 9
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John the same author as the gospel of John and I John, makes a clear distinction between the “word” of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The word “testimony” comes from the root word to bear witness.
Notice verse 2 John bore record of the word (logos) of God and of bore witness of Jesus and all the things that he (Jesus ) saw.
John bore record of the plan or intentions of God and bore witness of Jesus himself and all that Jesus saw.Verse 9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.John was on the Island of Patmos. Why? For the logos of God. the plan of God and to bear witness of Jesus Christ.
The logos is the plan, motive or intention of God.
Jesus is the fullfillment of the plan of God, but the name of Jesus cannot be literally exchanged with the word Logos.
The Logos is the blueprint. Jesus is the building.It seems John was inspired to make clear his staement in John 1. This also fits clearly with I John 1
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:20) Quote REad your own quote on the meanings. According to your own source the article is used to distiguish between things. I agree. It is distinguishing between titles. these ae not personal names but titles used to describe God. The personification of these titles comes from yur preconcieved ideas of the Trinity. you are forsefitting scripture again.
your own scholar says it is persons or things. these are not personal names, but titles THINGS.I conceded that baptism in Jesus name was proper according to Him having the highest name. Notice Jesus says not in the names (plural) as if this was multiple persons bu7t in the name (singular)
What is the name?
Jesus of course!
From a hHebew standpoint Jesus was the Father in that He perfectly revealed Him to us. He is the breath of God in His being made a life giving breath of God.
And of course He is the son.All titles and distinguished by the article. they deserve no more to be personified then if I said the Apple, the orange, and the peach. they have the article. do they deserve to be called persons?
M42
So the Father is a thing?
The Son is a thing?
And the Holy Spirit is a thing?
I suppose you would say “Jesus, you do not mean to use these titles to distinguish between the Father who is a title or the son who is a title or the Holy spirit who is a title, surely not Jesus?
What you should say Jesus is “Go ye therefore baptising them in the name of Jehovah and Jesus and the force of God”
II Peter 3:16
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
You are jumping off a cliff and completely missrepresenting what I said. I said the titles were things. According to your own expert “the” can be used to specificy things without giving personification.
I never even eluded to God being a thing.Quote (music4two @ Jan. 03 2007,16:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:20) Quote REad your own quote on the meanings. According to your own source the article is used to distiguish between things. I agree. It is distinguishing between titles. these ae not personal names but titles used to describe God. The personification of these titles comes from yur preconcieved ideas of the Trinity. you are forsefitting scripture again.
your own scholar says it is persons or things. these are not personal names, but titles THINGS.I conceded that baptism in Jesus name was proper according to Him having the highest name. Notice Jesus says not in the names (plural) as if this was multiple persons bu7t in the name (singular)
What is the name?
Jesus of course!
From a hHebew standpoint Jesus was the Father in that He perfectly revealed Him to us. He is the breath of God in His being made a life giving breath of God.
And of course He is the son.All titles and distinguished by the article. they deserve no more to be personified then if I said the Apple, the orange, and the peach. they have the article. do they deserve to be called persons?
M42
So the Father is a thing?
The Son is a thing?
And the Holy Spirit is a thing?
I suppose you would say “Jesus, you do not mean to use these titles to distinguish between the Father who is a title or the son who is a title or the Holy spirit who is a title, surely not Jesus?
What you should say Jesus is “Go ye therefore baptising them in the name of Jehovah and Jesus and the force of God”
II Peter 3:16
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
You are jumping off a cliff and completely missrepresenting what I said. I said the titles were things. According to your own expert “the” can be used to specificy things without giving personification.
I never even eluded to God being a thing.
It is the same as me saying in the name of the King. King is not a name but a position or title. If I were to say in the name of Richard the Lionheart. that would be a whole different matter.
Jesus says in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit. All titles are more aptly ways in which God has revealed Himself to man. his perfect revealing beiong Jesus, hence baptism in Jesus name.Quote I'd rather discuss this in the holy spirit thread. (I dislike the fact that there are 9 threads on the trinity all with duplicate conversations.) But, if you look at these “personal attributes” that apparently prove personality, isn't it interesting that about 15 of them could be used to prove that the Bible is a person!
These “attributes” that may or may not prove personage might be:
1. Personification.
2. Proof of personage.Since there are so many other ways the holy spirit are spoken of which don't allow for it to be a person, then option 1 is the only one that logic allows.
(For a list of these things, see “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” which is in the holy spirit thread, somewhere between pages 65-67.)David
Since this is a trinity thread. The only comment I will make is…
God = Father, Son and Holy Spirit united as one Godhead.
Its seems to me that all believers should rejoice over these 40 scriptures showing the wonder and beauty and the Glorious attributes of our God!
Quote You say –
M42
Explain this using your human logic.Response –
Here it is with the right terms applied –
Jn 1:
1. In the beginning was the motive and intentions of God. His plan. His intentions had been from the beginnig with Him. His motives and intentions are the very expression of who he is.
2. All the previous things I mentioned were with God from the beginning.
14. And the plan of God came to fruition. And we beheld that fullfilled plan in the Glory of the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth.You say –
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?response – No, but you can handle and touch the manefestation of God’s motive and intentions. This has been my point all along. Jesus was the manefestation of the plan, motive and intention of God. John is saying the same thing as John 1.
Here it is again –1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the plan (logos) of life;
2 And this is how we touched it. It was manifested to us. the plan was shown to us in the person of Jesus Christ. We are witnesses of the manifestation of the plan of life and can show you that eternal life that was planned by God from the beginning.
— As a side note, try force fitting the name Jesus into verse 1. “and our hands have handled, of the Jesus of life; —– It does not work!
you say –
I think I would rather belive him!Fine, let’s believe John – From the book of Revelation, writtten by John.
Revelation chapter 1:2 and 9
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John the same author as the gospel of John and I John, makes a clear distinction between the “word” of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The word “testimony” comes from the root word to bear witness.
Notice verse 2 John bore record of the word (logos) of God and of bore witness of Jesus and all the things that he (Jesus ) saw.
John bore record of the plan or intentions of God and bore witness of Jesus himself and all that Jesus saw.Verse 9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.John was on the Island of Patmos. Why? For the logos of God. the plan of God and to bear witness of Jesus Christ.
The logos is the plan, motive or intention of God.
Jesus is the fullfillment of the plan of God, but the name of Jesus cannot be literally exchanged with the word Logos.
The Logos is the blueprint. Jesus is the building.It seems John was inspired to make clear his staement in John 1. This also fits clearly with I John 1
M42
This is a huge stretch, but oh well.
II Peter 3:16
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Quote You are jumping off a cliff and completely missrepresenting what I said. I said the titles were things. According to your own expert “the” can be used to specificy things without giving personification.
I never even eluded to God being a thing.M42
Then stop elluding to the Spirit being a thing!
Quote It is the same as me saying in the name of the King. King is not a name but a position or title. If I were to say in the name of Richard the Lionheart. that would be a whole different matter.
Jesus says in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit. All titles are more aptly ways in which God has revealed Himself to man. his perfect revealing beiong Jesus, hence baptism in Jesus name.M42
No but the King is a person!
Try saying in the NAME of the Force! Star wars!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:07) Quote I'd rather discuss this in the holy spirit thread. (I dislike the fact that there are 9 threads on the trinity all with duplicate conversations.) But, if you look at these “personal attributes” that apparently prove personality, isn't it interesting that about 15 of them could be used to prove that the Bible is a person!
These “attributes” that may or may not prove personage might be:
1. Personification.
2. Proof of personage.Since there are so many other ways the holy spirit are spoken of which don't allow for it to be a person, then option 1 is the only one that logic allows.
(For a list of these things, see “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” which is in the holy spirit thread, somewhere between pages 65-67.)M42
Sad! Why are you so set on proving Gods Spirit is not personal?
Ill tell you why! Its because like everyone else who deny the trinitarian view, to accept the Holy Spirit as a Person would mean he has to be God.
God is a Spirit my friend is his Spirit not personal?
Do you no of any Angel or demon or any other living Spirit that has no personality? Why would you reduce Gods Spirit to just a mere force or power?
First of all this quote is not from me. Get your posts straight.I am not denying that God is a personal being. I am denying that He is 3 personal beings. YHWH is a personal God with personality, feelings, and specific attributes. One of thise attributes is that He is a Spirit being. Non-coporial in essence. Not of natural earthly material.
God spirit/breath is the very presence of God himself. It is not a seperate person of God. It is not seperate from God in any way.Jesus christ is a human being who never seperated himself from His creator by partaking of the knowledge of God and evil. He grew in closeness to His creator till they became one in relationship. we are called to the same (oneness) relationship with them.
Quote I'd rather discuss this in the holy spirit thread. (I dislike the fact that there are 9 threads on the trinity all with duplicate conversations.) But, if you look at these “personal attributes” that apparently prove personality, isn't it interesting that about 15 of them could be used to prove that the Bible is a person!
These “attributes” that may or may not prove personage might be:
1. Personification.
2. Proof of personage.Since there are so many other ways the holy spirit are spoken of which don't allow for it to be a person, then option 1 is the only one that logic allows.
(For a list of these things, see “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” which is in the holy spirit thread, somewhere between pages 65-67.)M42
Sad! Why are you so set on proving Gods Spirit is not personal?
Ill tell you why! Its because like everyone else who deny the trinitarian view, to accept the Holy Spirit as a Person would mean he has to be God.
God is a Spirit my friend is his Spirit not personal?
Do you no of any Angel or demon or any other living Spirit that has no personality? Why would you reduce Gods Spirit to just a mere force or power?
First of all this quote is not from me. Get your posts straight.
I am not denying that God is a personal being. I am denying that He is 3 personal beings. YHWH is a personal God with personality, feelings, and specific attributes. One of thise attributes is that He is a Spirit being. Non-coporial in essence. Not of natural earthly material.
God spirit/breath is the very presence of God himself. It is not a seperate person of God. It is not seperate from God in any way.Jesus christ is a human being who never seperated himself from His creator by partaking of the knowledge of God and evil. He grew in closeness to His creator till they became one in relationship. we are called to the same (oneness) relationship with them.
Sorry for the post. This was meandt for David!
Quote You say –
M42
Explain this using your human logic.Response –
Here it is with the right terms applied –
Jn 1:
1. In the beginning was the motive and intentions of God. His plan. His intentions had been from the beginnig with Him. His motives and intentions are the very expression of who he is.
2. All the previous things I mentioned were with God from the beginning.
14. And the plan of God came to fruition. And we beheld that fullfilled plan in the Glory of the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth.You say –
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?response – No, but you can handle and touch the manefestation of God’s motive and intentions. This has been my point all along. Jesus was the manefestation of the plan, motive and intention of God. John is saying the same thing as John 1.
Here it is again –1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the plan (logos) of life;
2 And this is how we touched it. It was manifested to us. the plan was shown to us in the person of Jesus Christ. We are witnesses of the manifestation of the plan of life and can show you that eternal life that was planned by God from the beginning.
— As a side note, try force fitting the name Jesus into verse 1. “and our hands have handled, of the Jesus of life; —– It does not work!
you say –
I think I would rather belive him!Fine, let’s believe John – From the book of Revelation, writtten by John.
Revelation chapter 1:2 and 9
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John the same author as the gospel of John and I John, makes a clear distinction between the “word” of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The word “testimony” comes from the root word to bear witness.
Notice verse 2 John bore record of the word (logos) of God and of bore witness of Jesus and all the things that he (Jesus ) saw.
John bore record of the plan or intentions of God and bore witness of Jesus himself and all that Jesus saw.Verse 9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.John was on the Island of Patmos. Why? For the logos of God. the plan of God and to bear witness of Jesus Christ.
The logos is the plan, motive or intention of God.
Jesus is the fullfillment of the plan of God, but the name of Jesus cannot be literally exchanged with the word Logos.
The Logos is the blueprint. Jesus is the building.It seems John was inspired to make clear his staement in John 1. This also fits clearly with I John 1
M42
Sad! Why are you so set on proving Gods Spirit is not personal?
Ill tell you why! Its because like everyone else who deny the trinitarian view, to accept the Holy Spirit as a Person would mean he has to be God.
God is a Spirit my friend is his Spirit not personal?
Do you no of any Angel or demon or any other living Spirit that has no personality? Why would you reduce Gods Spirit to just a mere force or power?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:38) Quote It is the same as me saying in the name of the King. King is not a name but a position or title. If I were to say in the name of Richard the Lionheart. that would be a whole different matter.
Jesus says in the name of the Father, Son and holy Spirit. All titles are more aptly ways in which God has revealed Himself to man. his perfect revealing beiong Jesus, hence baptism in Jesus name.M42
No but the King is a person!
Try saying in the NAME of the Force! Star wars!
the word king does not specify a particular person. It could apply to any number of individules that held that position
If I say to you the title son. that could mean either of my two sons or your sons or jane does sons. It is not a specific person. It is a title.
It is your preconcieved idea of the trinity that gives specific person to these titles.You do bring up a good point though. I can tell you the name of the Father is YAHWEH Eloohyim. I can tell you the name of the Son is Jesus. Can you tell me the personal name of the Spirit?
Father, son and Holy Spirit are all titles. descriptions of specific revealings of the one God.Quote the word king does not specify a particular person. It could apply to any number of individules that held that position
If I say to you the title son. that could mean either of my two sons or your sons or jane does sons. It is not a specific person. It is a title.
It is your preconcieved idea of the trinity that gives specific person to these titles.You do bring up a good point though. I can tell you the name of the Father is YAHWEH Eloohyim. I can tell you the name of the Son is Jesus. Can you tell me the personal name of the Spirit?
Father, son and Holy Spirit are all titles. descriptions of specific revealings of the oneM42
The Holy Spirit like the Father and Son has many appalations.
Jesus called the Spirit “Comfortor”. The primary ministry of the Holy Spirit was to testify of Jesus and not of himself.
God has many names. The I Am that I Am, Jehovah Jirah, Jehovah Shalom, etc.
Jesus is including the Name of the Holy Spirit in his statement becaus he wanted his own to know that the Spirit is a distinct and seperate person, and yet they are all One.
Jesus said the Father would send the Comfortor!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:48) Quote You say –
M42
Explain this using your human logic.Response –
Here it is with the right terms applied –
Jn 1:
1. In the beginning was the motive and intentions of God. His plan. His intentions had been from the beginnig with Him. His motives and intentions are the very expression of who he is.
2. All the previous things I mentioned were with God from the beginning.
14. And the plan of God came to fruition. And we beheld that fullfilled plan in the Glory of the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth.You say –
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?response – No, but you can handle and touch the manefestation of God’s motive and intentions. This has been my point all along. Jesus was the manefestation of the plan, motive and intention of God. John is saying the same thing as John 1.
Here it is again –1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the plan (logos) of life;
2 And this is how we touched it. It was manifested to us. the plan was shown to us in the person of Jesus Christ. We are witnesses of the manifestation of the plan of life and can show you that eternal life that was planned by God from the beginning.
— As a side note, try force fitting the name Jesus into verse 1. “and our hands have handled, of the Jesus of life; —– It does not work!
you say –
I think I would rather belive him!Fine, let’s believe John – From the book of Revelation, writtten by John.
Revelation chapter 1:2 and 9
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John the same author as the gospel of John and I John, makes a clear distinction between the “word” of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The word “testimony” comes from the root word to bear witness.
Notice verse 2 John bore record of the word (logos) of God and of bore witness of Jesus and all the things that he (Jesus ) saw.
John bore record of the plan or intentions of God and bore witness of Jesus himself and all that Jesus saw.Verse 9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.John was on the Island of Patmos. Why? For the logos of God. the plan of God and to bear witness of Jesus Christ.
The logos is the plan, motive or intention of God.
Jesus is the fullfillment of the plan of God, but the name of Jesus cannot be literally exchanged with the word Logos.
The Logos is the blueprint. Jesus is the building.It seems John was inspired to make clear his staement in John 1. This also fits clearly with I John 1
M42
Sad! Why are you so set on proving Gods Spirit is not personal?
Ill tell you why! Its because like everyone else who deny the trinitarian view, to accept the Holy Spirit as a Person would mean he has to be God.
God is a Spirit my friend is his Spirit not personal?
Do you no of any Angel or demon or any other living Spirit that has no personality? Why would you reduce Gods Spirit to just a mere force or power?
I do not appreciate your conesending comments. If you want to be honest. What is really sad is the person that takes an atribute and/or revealing of God, the fact that He is a spirit, and pakes a seperate person of that attribute.the attribute of being a spirit is no more a person then the attribute of being physical. there ae many spirit beings in creation. YHWH is one of them. If one accepts the term Holy Spirt as accurate the that term is merely a discription to differentiate between God and these other spirit beings. He is the spirit that is holy. this is not a personal name but a title or discription.
I am off here for a while. buisness to do.
Quote I do not appreciate your conesending comments. If you want to be honest. What is really sad is the person that takes an atribute and/or revealing of God, the fact that He is a spirit, and pakes a seperate person of that attribute. the attribute of being a spirit is no more a person then the attribute of being physical. there ae many spirit beings in creation. YHWH is one of them. If one accepts the term Holy Spirt as accurate the that term is merely a discription to differentiate between God and these other spirit beings. He is the spirit that is holy. this is not a personal name but a title or discription.
I am off here for a while. buisness to do.
M42
Praying for you!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,16:57) Quote the word king does not specify a particular person. It could apply to any number of individules that held that position
If I say to you the title son. that could mean either of my two sons or your sons or jane does sons. It is not a specific person. It is a title.
It is your preconcieved idea of the trinity that gives specific person to these titles.You do bring up a good point though. I can tell you the name of the Father is YAHWEH Eloohyim. I can tell you the name of the Son is Jesus. Can you tell me the personal name of the Spirit?
Father, son and Holy Spirit are all titles. descriptions of specific revealings of the oneM42
The Holy Spirit like the Father and Son has many appalations.
Jesus called the Spirit “Comfortor”. The primary ministry of the Holy Spirit was to testify of Jesus and not of himself.
God has many names. The I Am that I Am, Jehovah Jirah, Jehovah Shalom, etc.
Jesus is including the Name of the Holy Spirit in his statement becaus he wanted his own to know that the Spirit is a distinct and seperate person, and yet they are all One.
Jesus said the Father would send the Comfortor!
The diffeence is that the Father and the Son are titles given to specific individules with specific personal names.
Your conjecture that Jesus included the name Holy Spirit to indicate the trinity is reading your doctrine into the scripture. It does not say that at all.
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