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WJ
As I said before I am not going to deal with John again except to say this, when you say that we need to understand and follow the real Greek words, When you say we should use the entie scripture, you are not being honest. I say this with no malice, however, when you continually accept a wrong interpretation for the term “word” in John, you are not honest with the real scripture as it was penned. It is obviously a matter of protecting your doctrine by missusing and missinterpreting scripture. If “Word” (Logos) meant Jesus, it would mean it everywhere, not just in John. Logos is used in the New Testament some 230 times and yet those who wish to support the trinity, give Logos a different interpretation for a dozen verses in John then is found in the entire rest of scripture.
You say
Jesus emptied himself of his claim as God so he could do the will of the Father.
He did not stop being God, but left all of his glory and power and authority to humble himself as a man and become a servant dependant on God the Father.
As you and I are to be dependant on the Father so was Jesus.Response –
According to your description of Jesus WE ARE NOT dependent on the Father in the same way because we are not the same type of creature. Jesus remained God. We are not!
Is it reasonable that one being (Jesus) can have a dual nature. Some say He is 100% man and 100% God and yet claim he is fully human. I do not have a dual nature, do you? This in addition to the absolutely rediculous stand that any one being could have 100% of the characteristics of God and 100% of the characteristics of man, especially when many of these characteristics are opposite of one another. Failable – infailable, temptable – non temptable, mortal – immortal, knowing everything – not knowing everything, all powerfull – not all powerfull. This would create a being with multiple personality disorder.I understand your argument that Jesus was filled with the Spirit. You havc said you are Spirit filled too. Are you infailable or non-temptable? Does even having the fullness of God in you make you God?
What about these verses? Do these then indicate we are to become a God like Jesus?
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.You say- Jesus/God gave up his divine power to become a man. How do you explain clear scriptures like —
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.or
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.The most primary characteristic of judaism and Christianity is one immutable unchanging God. Even with this fact, you are comfortable with teaching that Yahweh Elohyim can lay down the very characteristics and attributes of what makes Him God and become a man? Be carefull my friend. that is a vey dangerous teaching.
You say –
In this way Jesus could be a Faithfull High Priest in all things having to do with the Priesthood. For he having a human body like us except without sin he would be tempted in all points as we are.response – So are you then saying that sin is a product of the human body? Does temptation effect only our bodies? What about our human wills or souls?
If Jesus is in any way dofferent then the rest of humanity then He cannot fullfill the position of High Priest since that position is a human calling and requires failability like all other men.
Hebrews 5EVERY HIGH PRIEST IS A MAN chosen to represent other people in their dealings with God. He presents their gifts to God and offers sacrifices for their sins. 2 And he is able to deal gently with ignorant and wayward people because HE HIMSELF IS SUBJECT TO THE SAME WEAKNESSES. 3 THAT IS WHY HE MUST OFFER SACRIFICES FOR HIS OWN SINS AS WELL AS THEIRS.
4 And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. 5 That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him,
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”6 And in another passage God said to him,
“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.
you say —
Jesus was born a man and grew as a child in wisdom and in favour with God his Father. The Eternal Spirit in That body was the the Word/God.Response —
Are you implying here that Jesus did not have a human spirit? I agree that Jesus was filled with the Spirit/breath of God.You say –
Then Jesus proclaimed to the Discples “ALL Power in heaven and earth is given unto me”Response –
This does not prove He is God. In fact it proves my point. Notice the clear words “given unto me”? this means there is a point in time when He did not posses this power. You will filter it through your doctrine to say it is when he gave it up to come to Earth. I say becaue He never had it before but earned it by His choices and life.
John 5:26-2826For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Here we see Him made judge by God, not because He is a God.
Acts 10:41-43
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 17:31
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”you say –
He had done the Fathers will. But if you will look M42 there were instances that Jesus could have taken claim to being God.
As Jesus was about to be put on the cross he could have called legions of Angels to his rescue. But he had said “not my will but thine be done”.
Jesus said “Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days”
“For the son of man has power to lay down his life and to take it again”
What man could say this?
Though he knew this he still said “into thy hands I commit my Spirit” and he gave up the Ghost.
Jesus in total submission to God.Response –
Any perfect man to whom God intrusted all power in heaven and earth could do all of those things.
You made a very good point. Jesus did not claim to be God. You see this through your doctrine as meaning Jesus gave up his Godhood. Why not see it as it is written? In all of those instances He could have resolved everything by proclaiming himself God. He didn’t!You say –
What man could forgive sins against God?Response –
Those men whom Jesus gives authority to do so.
Mat 16
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19And I will giv
e unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mat 18
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 9
3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7And he arose, and departed to his house.
8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
What power was given to man? Certainly it is applicable to say the power to heal, but the context is about the power to fogive sin given to men. This is one aspect of th people marveling.
you say –
What man could say he is “Lord of the Saboth”?response –
Any man to whom God has made Lord (Kurios (Gr) =master or one in authority. Not a name for God)You say –
What man could say that “before Abraham was “I AM”?response –
First Jesus was a prophet as testified by His own words.
Matthew 13:57
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.Second – The Pharasees, to whom Jesus was speaking, were justifying themselvs on account of their being decendents of Abraham. The great I AM spoke through Jesus and said “Before abraham was I AM.” YHWH did this to point out that their justification should have been on account of God not their geneology.
thirdly – the fact that in the KJV (an other translations) has “I AM” in capitals is not proof that this is the name of God. The entire Greek NT was written in capitals.You state –
What man could say “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”?
What man could say “whoso drinks of the water I shall give him shall never die”?
What man can say “I AM the resurection and the life”?Response – None of these require Jesus being a God to be fullfilled. All power was given in heaven and Earth to Jesus the man.
The Human Jesus is the resurestion and the life for two very important reasons.
1. His blood sacrifice opens the door for us to be restored to our rightfull position as sons of God. A position given away by Adam at the fall.
Romans 5
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
This was the garce of a man.you say –
What man could say “If you have seen me then you have seen the Father, I and my Father are One”?Response –
Christ =
2 Corinthians 4:4
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
humanity =
1 Corinthians 11:7
For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1 Corinthians 15:49
Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.Jesus revealed the Father to mankind. He did not reveal a second person of God but the Father.
Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.Jesus prayed for all men to be one with Him and His Father
John 17
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
If your logic says Jesus being one with God proves He is God, then, by that same logic and context we are to be Gods too.
You say –
What man could say “I AM the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me”?
What man could say he was the “GOOD Shephard”?
What man could say “search the scriptures for in them you think you have Eternal life and they are they that testify of me”?
What man could say “ALL that the Father has is mine”?
What man could say “ye believe in God, believe also in me”
What man?Response –
The man appointed Messiah by YHWH. By the man given all authority and power by YHWH. By the heir to the thrown of God. (by the way, we are joint heirs with him) None of these attributes require Jesus to be a God!You say –
If Jesus was just all man for us to follow his example, then why did he not just walk as a man?response –
He did! I think you fail to see the truth of the position man is supposed to have in the Earth and what we lost at the fall. Adam was created perfect but imature by YHWH. He had dominion over the Earth. There was no sickness, death, genetic coruption, weapons, war, and most important no second law of thermodynamics.
When Adam fell he gave all of this up. Man began to die. Man’s lifespan shortened. No more did the fruit easily yield itself to man. The beasts no longer obeyed. The gene code began to break down and all of man suffered. This is simply the effects on man and his children of being born in a cursed world. This is the effect of Adam surrendering up the position man was intended to have. Instead of man being in dominion over the Earth, the enemy had it. The whole world lies in the lap of the wicked one. Man lost his position. Sin entered the world and the result was the curse. Man from that point forward was subject to the effects of the curse, the physical shortcomings of a cursed world.
This was the result of Adam partaking of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
Jesus on the other hand never partook of the knowledge of Good and evil. Though born perfect and inocent like Adam, he never once sinned or otherwise seperated himself from God. He was the perfect fullfilling of the position man was intended to occupy in God’s creation. The perfect example of a complete human being, filled with God’s breath/Spirit, born of a woman and under the law. He was never sick. The fishes jumped in the net at his comand. He calmed the seas and walked on water. No sicknees caused by genetic weakness could stand against him. He did not suffer from the
second law of thermodynamics. His body did not see decay. Jesus had dominion over the Earth and restored that possibility to us. We our heirs and joint heirs with Him.You state –
Why the walking on water and the dissapearing acts and the calming of storms and the many other miracles he performed with and through the Father who was also in him?
Do you know anybody today that are following that example?
Most of Jesus ministry was surrounded by miracles. Do you seek to have those miracles performed in you. If not you should?Response –
Do you think that because no one has yet lived up to the complete standard Jesus set, that it is therefore impossible to do? What about “Be ye perfect/Holy as your Father in heaven is perfect/Holy”? Does God give commandments that are impossible to actually do?
I hope I am missunderstanding you in this last part. Are you saying Jesus did all these miracles because He is a God?
I agree it was the Father in Christ that did the works. This does not make Jesus God! The same Father did miracles through Mosses, Elijah and all the prophets as well as the Apostles in the NT and by tens of thousands since then. Do you deny that God does miracles today?
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.And yes I have seen mighty miracles both in my own life and others. I personally know people that have been healed of deadly deseases. I have seen money appear in front of my eyes. I have seen God’s supernatural intervention in hundreds of situations.
Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.You say –
I could go on all night about Jesus.
I leave you with this…
Our bodies are the Temple of God.
I Cor 3:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Examine these scriptures very closly and you will see the interchanging of the words God, Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of him.Response –
Thank you for making my point to some extant. Christ was the temple of God and so are we. This does not make Him God, but rather compares him again with humanity and makes him like us!
Then compare with…
II Cor 13:5
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
The word Jesus in this verse is “Yashua”.
How can Jesus dwell in you and the Spirit of God and God the Father unless they are gloriously and wonderously and uniquelly united together as one?
Jesus is God!response –
First- concerning the long list of scriptures you sent before which you believe proved the Holy Spirit be a seperate person of God do nothing of the sort. Every one can be easily explained by the simple fact that God’s Holy breath moves upon His creation (including us) to do His good pleasure in us. The holy breath is the presence of God himself manifested in the physical realm for our benifit. His presence naturally carries His nature and attributes. Yes YHWH is a comforter, teacher ect. His breath/presence will be The fact that you refuse to look at the actual meaning of the word translated “Spirit” in the KJV does not change it’s real meaning. Nor do your personifications change it. As you said we need to understand the Greek to really comprehend the scriptures. That does not mean use the Greek if it agrees with the KJV or our doctrine. That means believe the Greek regardless of doctrine or translation.
The word is pneuma 4151 in the strongs. It is from the root word pneo. Both carry the primary meaning of wind or breath and take verb form relating to blow or blowing.
You have also never accepted the fact that in the Greek, the article “the” preceeding the term “Holy Spirit” is not there. This again rejects the personification of God’s Holy breath.Acts 2 –
2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4And they were all filled with Holy wind/breath and began to speak with other tongues, as the wind/breath was giving them utterance.
Does having the pesence/breath of God in us make us Gods? Only in that we should be in the process of being changed from Glory to Glory and becoming like YHWH in character. This is why we hae been given a perfect example of God’s character in a complete human being. Jesus Christ.
I see no problem with Jesus being a seperate being from YHWH. However the fact that He returns to us after his esurection is not proof of Him being God. Jesus was given the ability to be a life giving spirit so that he could continue to fullfill his role as mediator and Messiah to mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving breath.
Read this verse carefully. this is comparing two things that became something else. Adam, a hunk of clay, became a living being. Jesus, a man, became a life giving spirit.in conclussion –
If a person is born again/spirit filled then the breath or presence of God resides in us, His Temple. Jesus and the Father are one. Because all power in heaven and Earth is given to Jesus and because He is the mediator between God and Man, Jesus comes also as a life giving breath with YHWH.Romans 8:19
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.Jesus said to follow his example. Could we actually do this if He is God?
John 13:15
I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.Paul said follw his example as he follows the example of Christ. Paul could follow Christ’s because Paul and Christ were both human.
1 Corinthians 11:1
Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.Peter says we should suffer like a God? No, like Christ a man!
1 Peter 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
Paul says He gives mercy in like manner as a God? no, but like Christ.
1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.Have we attained. I know no one yet that has done so, but we do press on to the mark. That mark being the standard set by our brother Christ. The perfect example, because he is human.
Phil 3
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. 18For, as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
M42
Quote As I said before I am not going to deal with John again except to say this, when you say that we need to understand and follow the real Greek words, When you say we should use the entie scripture, you are not being honest. I say this with no malice, however, when you continually accept a wrong interpretation for the term “word” in John, you are not honest with the real scripture as it was penned. It is obviously a matter of protecting your doctrine by missusing and missinterpreting scripture. If “Word” (Logos) meant Jesus, it would mean it everywhere, not just in John. Logos is used in the New Testament some 230 times and yet those who wish to support the trinity, give Logos a different interpretation for a dozen verses in John then is found in the entire rest of scripture. Fine. But who was it that became flesh?
Do you throw those scriptures away also?
As to the rest I see no reason to repeat myself!
Blessings!
Quote The word is pneuma 4151 in the strongs. It is from the root word pneo. Both carry the primary meaning of wind or breath and take verb form relating to blow or blowing.
You have also never accepted the fact that in the Greek, the article “the” preceeding the term “Holy Spirit” is not there. This again rejects the personification of God’s Holy breath.M42
This is untrue! Here is a scripture that have the definate articles.
Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:The Greek reads:
“eiV to onoma tou PatroV kai tou Uiou kai tou Hagiou PneumatoV”
“in the name the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.”The definite article “tou” (the) before Son and Holy Ghost indicates that they are all different things or persons. The grammatical rule in Greek for determining whether a single thing or person is meant, or different things or persons is meant, when “and” appears, is called the “Granville Sharp rule.” The basic rule is as follows:
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first.” {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament” (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 02 2007,22:06) M42 Quote As I said before I am not going to deal with John again except to say this, when you say that we need to understand and follow the real Greek words, When you say we should use the entie scripture, you are not being honest. I say this with no malice, however, when you continually accept a wrong interpretation for the term “word” in John, you are not honest with the real scripture as it was penned. It is obviously a matter of protecting your doctrine by missusing and missinterpreting scripture. If “Word” (Logos) meant Jesus, it would mean it everywhere, not just in John. Logos is used in the New Testament some 230 times and yet those who wish to support the trinity, give Logos a different interpretation for a dozen verses in John then is found in the entire rest of scripture. Fine. But who was it that became flesh?
Do you throw those scriptures away also?
As to the rest I see no reason to repeat myself!
Blessings!
I have neer thrown any scripture away. In fact I have dealt with every scripture you have posted. the same cannot be said for your responses. This one is a prime example.As to John 1. you begin from a false premiss to begin with. this is exactly what I have been saying all along.
You assume it has to be a Who became flesh. this is starting with a peconcieved idea of a preexistant Christ.
Let me explain it this way. The primary meaning of the Greek Logos is a statement, idea, or concept. Some other words that might describe it is the motives, intentions or plan of God.God has a plan. his plan is to bring salvation and restoration of mankind through a human messiah. A human because we need a perfect example of what it means to walk with God as human beings. God also needed a second Adam to restore that which Adam gave away.
God is just in all that He does. Even when the enemy goes into the court of Heaen to accuse the brethren, God deals justly.
Jesus and Adam had to be the same in order to be just.
god found a good Godly woman in Mary and his motive and intentions for mankind became flesh.
Adam = God breathed life into the nostrils of Adam
Jesus = And mary was found to be with child of Holy breath
Adam = born without the curse or it’s inner effects.
Jesus = born of incorruptable seed without the inner effects of the curse
Adam = taught and fathered by God himself
Jesus = taught and fathered by God himself
Adam = direct son of God
Jesus = direct son of God
Adam = completely human
Jesus = completely human
Adam = had the position of dominion over the Earth, all of it’s creatures and was to take care of it
Jesus = Had the position of dominion over the Earth. He also cared for God's creation including us, by being a blood sacrifice to restore us to our rightfull position in God's economy.If one reads John 1 in the Greek and puts motives and intentions in the place of “Word” it makes perfect sense.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 02 2007,23:37) Quote The word is pneuma 4151 in the strongs. It is from the root word pneo. Both carry the primary meaning of wind or breath and take verb form relating to blow or blowing.
You have also never accepted the fact that in the Greek, the article “the” preceeding the term “Holy Spirit” is not there. This again rejects the personification of God’s Holy breath.M42
This is untrue! Here is a scripture that have the definate articles.
Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:The Greek reads:
“eiV to onoma tou PatroV kai tou Uiou kai tou Hagiou PneumatoV”
“in the name the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.”The definite article “tou” (the) before Son and Holy Ghost indicates that they are all different things or persons. The grammatical rule in Greek for determining whether a single thing or person is meant, or different things or persons is meant, when “and” appears, is called the “Granville Sharp rule.” The basic rule is as follows:
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first.” {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament” (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}”
As you have pointed out before, the apostles baptised in Jesus name because His name was above all others. I can concede that without problem. That being the case and Jesus being the revealing of YHWH and the perfect expresion of God's breath in a human on the earth i can say this.
Notice that all the terms in this verse are Titles and not proper names. no personal names are use here, but specific titles are used and the article is used appropriately to indicate those specific titles. this does not personofy any of those things listed.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
It is curious that of all the ones that do not list the article you would hang your hat on one of the few that seems to do so. Are you looking for proof of your doctrine or for the truth in scripture?
Oxy, in this thread, and the one on the holy spirit, you like to point out the “he” with reference to the holy spirit.
This is what I said in the holy spirit thread, on around page 65-67:
“A HELPER–“he” “his,” “him”
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive parakletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns (ie: “him”). On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun (“it”) to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”“Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 03 2007,04:37) Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Still got that high fever cult buster?Isn't this a wonderful Bible truth???
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Quote (music4two @ Jan. 03 2007,00:19) WorshippingJesus,Jan. wrote:M42
Quote As I said before I am not going to deal with John again except to say this, when you say that we need to understand and follow the real Greek words, When you say we should use the entie scripture, you are not being honest. I say this with no malice, however, when you continually accept a wrong interpretation for the term “word” in John, you are not honest with the real scripture as it was penned. It is obviously a matter of protecting your doctrine by missusing and missinterpreting scripture. If “Word” (Logos) meant Jesus, it would mean it everywhere, not just in John. Logos is used in the New Testament some 230 times and yet those who wish to support the trinity, give Logos a different interpretation for a dozen verses in John then is found in the entire rest of scripture. Fine. But who was it that became flesh?
Do you throw those scriptures away also?
Quote As to the rest I see no reason to repeat myself!
Blessings!
I have neer thrown any scripture away. In fact I have dealt with every scripture you have posted. the same cannot be said for your responses. This one is a prime example.As to John 1. you begin from a false premiss to begin with. this is exactly what I have been saying all along.
You assume it has to be a Who became flesh. this is starting with a peconcieved idea of a preexistant Christ.
Let me explain it this way. The primary meaning of the Greek Logos is a statement, idea, or concept. Some other words that might describe it is the motives, intentions or plan of God.God has a plan. his plan is to bring salvation and restoration of mankind through a human messiah. A human because we need a perfect example of what it means to walk with God as human beings. God also needed a second Adam to restore that which Adam gave away.
God is just in all that He does. Even when the enemy goes into the court of Heaen to accuse the brethren, God deals justly.
Jesus and Adam had to be the same in order to be just.
god found a good Godly woman in Mary and his motive and intentions for mankind became flesh.
Adam = God breathed life into the nostrils of Adam
Jesus = And mary was found to be with child of Holy breath
Adam = born without the curse or it’s inner effects.
Jesus = born of incorruptable seed without the inner effects of the curse
Adam = taught and fathered by God himself
Jesus = taught and fathered by God himself
Adam = direct son of God
Jesus = direct son of God
Adam = completely human
Jesus = completely human
Adam = had the position of dominion over the Earth, all of it’s creatures and was to take care of it
Jesus = Had the position of dominion over the Earth. He also cared for God's creation including us, by being a blood sacrifice to restore us to our rightfull position in God's economy.If one reads John 1 in the Greek and puts motives and intentions in the place of “Word” it makes perfect sense.
Actually, Adam was not the son of God. The words “son of” are in italics, which means the words are added to give “clarity. Adam was of God in that God created him, but Jesus was/is and acyual Son of God. the firstborn.Quote As you have pointed out before, the apostles baptised in Jesus name because His name was above all others. I can concede that without problem. That being the case and Jesus being the revealing of YHWH and the perfect expresion of God's breath in a human on the earth i can say this.
Notice that all the terms in this verse are Titles and not proper names. no personal names are use here, but specific titles are used and the article is used appropriately to indicate those specific titles. this does not personofy any of those things listed.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
It is curious that of all the ones that do not list the article you would hang your hat on one of the few that seems to do so. Are you looking for proof of your doctrine or for the truth in scripture?
M42
So you say that Jesus was not making a distinction here is that right?
Throw out the scripture my friend, because according to your interpretation Jesus is just wasting his words!
Why would Jesus catagorically put the Holy Spirit in there with the Father and Himself?
Was it a waste of words or did it mean anything?
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Again in response to your quote….
Quote You have also never accepted the fact that in the Greek, the article “the” preceeding the term “Holy Spirit” is not there. This again rejects the personification of God’s Holy breath. Was your quote intentionally mis-leading?
Here is a scripture that has the definate article before Holy “Pnuema”?
So your argument of the definate article holds no weight!
Let me show you again.
The Greek reads:“eiV to onoma tou PatroV kai tou Uiou kai tou Hagiou PneumatoV”
“in the name the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.”The definite article “tou” (the) before Son and Holy Ghost indicates that they are all different things or persons. The grammatical rule in Greek for determining whether a single thing or person is meant, or different things or persons is meant, when “and” appears, is called the “Granville Sharp rule.” The basic rule is as follows:
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first.” {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament” (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}”
BTW. Here are those personal attributes again, maybe you can explain to me how the Holy Spirit is not personal.
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.
God = Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these three are One!
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (would the Son be giving direction to the Spirit if it was the Fathers active will?) 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. (the depths of reality must be a shock to us) 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, (does not sound like an equal?) and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine (the Father gives “it” to the Son, then the Spirit takes “it” from the Son and to Son's glory He makes “it” known to us) and make it known to you. [ (what is “it”, truth and knowledge of what is to come?)
Quote Oxy, in this thread, and the one on the holy spirit, you like to point out the “he” with reference to the holy spirit. This is what I said in the holy spirit thread, on around page 65-67:
“A HELPER–“he” “his,” “him”
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive parakletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns (ie: “him”). On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun (“it”) to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.David
We dont hide this.
Tell me by these scriptures how the Holy Spirit is not personal?
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.God = Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these three are One!
Quote If one reads John 1 in the Greek and puts motives and intentions in the place of “Word” it makes perfect sense. M42
Explain this using your human logic.
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I Jn 1:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Can you see a motive and intention? Can your hands handle a motive and intention?
The Beloved John was there and saw this Word Made flesh, he saw him and touched him!
I think I would rather belive him!
Quote We dont hide this. Don't you?
So you go around telling people that “he” isn't really what the original greek had? ya.
Quote Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN! 1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.I'd rather discuss this in the holy spirit thread. (I dislike the fact that there are 9 threads on the trinity all with duplicate conversations.)
But, if you look at these “personal attributes” that apparently prove personality, isn't it interesting that about 15 of them could be used to prove that the Bible is a person!
These “attributes” that may or may not prove personage might be:
1. Personification.
2. Proof of personage.Since there are so many other ways the holy spirit are spoken of which don't allow for it to be a person, then option 1 is the only one that logic allows.
(For a list of these things, see “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” which is in the holy spirit thread, somewhere between pages 65-67.)Quote There is an abundance of scripture which I have presented that shows The Holy Spirit as a Divine Person.
Actually, CB, I believe you keep repeating the same 4 or 5 scriptures, such as Matthew 28:19,20 for example and every so often, you throw in another one. I would not call it an “abundance of scripture.”
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