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Quote in otherwords if I do not define scripture with a preconcieved idea of a dual nature, I will never come to the same conclusions as you.
well thank God for that!!!M42
Then remain in your confusion about Hebrews 1.
Its clear to me!
Quote in otherwords if I do not define scripture with a preconcieved idea of a dual nature, I will never come to the same conclusions as you.
well thank God for that!!!M42
BTW. No preconcieved idea of Dual nature. The Father declares the dual nature in these verses.
Why dont you belive him?
The Dual Nature of Christ
One of the most important questions all Christians must determine is “Who is Jesus?” The word “Christian” itself means followers of Christ. It is imperative to know who Jesus is in order to follow him. The most critical aspect in examining of a living creature must be it’s nature.
God is a being of order and reason. He is the author of intelegent design. Does the Dual Nature Doctrine line up with God’s attributes of logic, design and reason?
There are literally 100 of scriptures that prove Jesus to be human. Nearly all Christian Churches lay claim to believing that He is fully human, however they also add a concept of Jesus being fully God. This is commonly refered to as “The Dual Nature of Christ”
This Dual Nature Doctrine states that Jesus had a dual nature. He is both fully God and fully man at the same time. This belief is held by both Trinitarian and Oneness denominations. In fact, most of their belief systems are centered around this doctrine. For years the fight between Oneness and Trinitarian believers has raged. It is curious that both sides use this doctrine to support their concepts of God. But, does this doctrine stand up to close examination?
First let us define the term nature from common modern language.
Nature in modern dictionaries includes these definitions;
The essential characteristics and qualities of a person or thing:
The fundamental character or disposition of a person; temperament:
The natural or real aspect of a person, place, or thing. One synonym would be disposition or character. A person's nature refers to the combination of qualities that idenity a person or being.Here we see a clear discription of “Nature”. So it is obvious that one aspect of Nature is the characteristics or make up of a person.
Let’s look at the dual nature doctrine. Remember, acording to this doctrine, the two natures (mortal and divine) cannot be seperated.
In order for Jesus to possess both human and devine natures he must be mortal and immortal at the same time. Finite and infinite, fallible and infallible, temptable and non temptable, This is a logical impossibility. At this point most “dual nature believers” make statements such as “God’s ways are higher then our ways” or it is a paradox that we cannot understand with our feeble fallen minds.
Firstly from the very beginning of recorded history in scripture God has dealt with man according to reason and logic. The rules of action and reaction are clearly shown in God’s covenants with man. If we act in accordance with God’s covenant then we receive the blessing of God. If not, then we do not. If God were not a reasoning creature or we not able to understand reason, we could never understand or follow his covenants. We are created in the image of God, with the same reasoning abilities as God. In fact God calls upon us to reason with Him.
Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”Would God calls us to reason with Him were we not capable of doing so?
Secondly this is not a paradox. A paradox is something that appears to be impossible yet proves itself to be possible. An example of a paradox is the belief held for years that, according to the then believed laws of physics, bumble bees could not fly. Yet bumble bees DID fly. This paradox existed because our understanding of nature continues to expand and further understanding resolved the paradox. This does not hold true with laws of reason and logic. There are absolute truths based on logic that do not change. 2 + 2 will always equal 4. There are no square circles. Black does not equal white ect. In the same way opposites cannot be equal.
God cannot be tempted. Jesus can be, and was. These two attributes are opposites and cannot exist within one being.
Jesus is human and therefor can fail. God cannot fail in anything He attempts. Again opposite.
God is all powerfull. Humanity is not. Jesus is human therefore not all powerfull. Opposites!
There is a clear pattern here. The attributes of God and Man cannot exist within one being.
There are some that believe that the laws of logic and reason do not apply when considering God. This is curiously like the beliefs of Wicca (modern witchcraft) who hold there are no absolutes. They further believe that everyone can imagine their own God, with any qualities they make up. Because they do not accept scripture, they require no proof, nor do they require any reason or logic in their God’s attributes or actions. With that philosophy, it is possible to postulate any scenerio, no matter how absurd.
Simply put the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ cannot be expressed without causing contradictions. It cannot be stated in a meaningful way. We can recite the words but our minds cannot understand them in any logical way free of contradictions. It would be like saying something is a square and a circle at the same time. Logic does not permit such a conclusion.
Another problem with the dual nature concept arises when considering if Jesus is the same as the rest of humanity. The very essence of humanity is it’s single human nature. If you change the nature of a man, you change that man into a different creature. If the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ is true and Christ's two natures cannot be seperated, then he is fundamentally different then the rest of mankind, since we have only our single human nature and make up. This makes Jesus a different creature then the rest of Humanity. It makes him non human. Followers of this doctrine can state time and again that Jesus is fully human, but the belief that He has a dual and therefor different nature makes Him different. They must, by excepting this doctrine, qualify Jesus’ humanity. This of course contradicts hundreds of very clear scriptures.
This dual nature further begs the question, How is Jesus a pattern for us if he is different in nature then us? We then have to examine every act of Jesus to determine if he did it by virtue of his human nature or his divine nature? When Jesus healed people was it his divine or human nature in action. If we say it was his human nature then we must conclude that humanity has miracle power without God. If his divine nature then how can we do or imitate any of Jesus powerful gifts. After all we have only our human nature! Even though Jesus says “Greater things then this we you do”, we still must question from which nature he did them.
What of Jesus’ resurrection? The most powerful hope and example in the word. Did He resurrect as a man or as a God? What power did it? Of course scripture says God raised Jesus from the dead. This does not solve our dilemma. If Jesus' nature has to be qualified to fullfill the dual nature doctrine and the two natures cannot be seperated, then what was raised from the dead, a God or a man? There are those that teach that God withdrew from Jesus at the point of His crucifiction? The only proof they have is the fact that Jesus cries out “My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?” This is not proof of a broken dual nature. It makes much more sence to see Jesus as a man in such tremendous pain in his heart and body that He cries out in total anquish. He was being killed or deserted by those whom he so desperately loved.
Because this doctrine makes Jesus different we still must question his ability to be a pattern for us. The fact that God raised a dual natured God/man from the dead is not an example for those of us that are of a single nature. How do we know that we, of a single nature, will be raised from the dead? Because this dual nature of Christ makes Jesus different, in basic nature, then the rest of humanity, we cannot use his life as an example. This scraps all of the plan of God to raise up o
thers like Christ. How can others become dual natured like Jesus?Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.
Matthew 16:19
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Again I am taken back to Hebrews 1. How can I believe in a God that cannot exist?
M42
Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.God “Theos”, , was manifest in the flesh
God “Theos”, was justified in the Spirit
God “Theos”, was seen of Angels
God “Theos”, preached unto the Gentiles
God “Theos”, was believed on in the world
God “Theos”, received up into glory.
Who was this God…. Jesus.Quote The fact is that no dual natured creature, 100% man and 100% God could ever have existed. It simply does not fall within the realm of God’s intelegent design, reason or logic. This doctrine effectively scraps all the major promises for other men to follow in Christ’s footsteps. It makes Jesus non-human and therefore nothing Jesus did can be used as an example for humanity. It is another myth and illusion. Again I am taken back to Hebrews 1. How can I believe in a God that cannot exist? M42
If we are the temple of God and God dwells in us and we need God in us to overcome the world, then why would not Jesus the firstborn among many brethren, the second Adam need God in him also? Difference being is he was God.
Its simply a lie to assume that Jesus had to be only man or we could not follow his example.
We need the same Spirit of which he is.
We are of the New creation, and greater is he, “God, Jesus, the Spirit” that is in us than he that is in the world.
Who is in your temple M42.
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Quote Some will ask how did he do things like forgive sins if he is a human being? The pharasees’ ask the same question. Matthew 9/2 through 8 Jesus says to the crippled man “Courage son your sins are forgiven” On seeing this some of the teachers said among themselves “ This man is blaspheming”! Jesus knowing what they were thinking said. “Why are you entertaining evil thoughts in your hearts?
Tell me which is easier to say? Your sins are forgiven or get up and walk. But Look! I will prove to you that the Son of Man (Son of Man again denoting his humanity) has authority on earth to forgive sins.” He then said to the paralized man… Pick up your mattress and go home. {Everyone there understood what happened next as explained in verse 7 and 8….} and the man got up and went home. When the crowds saw this they were awestruck and praised God, the giver of such authority to HUMAN BEINGS!!!What authority was given to human beings? The entire context is about the authority to forgive sins! Notice also that Jesus does not correct the crowd’s celebration of the authority to forgive sin being given to humans. The crowd recognised Jesus as human and that is why they were awstruck at the power given him. If he was God they would have been less surprised. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus had no problem pointing out blasphemy, yet he made no correction here. Perhaps because this power given to humans to forgive sin is not blasphemy. In fact scripture is very clear on the subject.
M42
This is what Catholosism teaches. The Preist have the power to forgive sins.
Jesus said…
Lk 11:
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.Jesus said to ask the Father to forgive us as we forgive those who sin against us.
We have no power to forgive mens sins against God. Or you could simply declare anyone to be saved.
There is no example other than Jesus of any other man in scripture forgiving sins against God.
Forsake these lies my friend.
Earlier I posted the idea of Jesus being YHWH.
YHWH however, is not the Father.
The God El is the Father.
YHWH is a son of the “Most High” who is El.
El the Most High gave to YHWH an inheritence of man.
Is this how you understand it worshippingjesus?
Quote Earlier I posted the idea of Jesus being YHWH. YHWH however, is not the Father.
The God El is the Father.
YHWH is a son of the “Most High” who is El.
El the Most High gave to YHWH an inheritence of man.
Is this how you understand it worshippingjesus?
The Word that was with God and the word that Was and is God, Jesus, Yashua was not the Son of “El” Untill Theos took on human form and was declared to be the Beloved Son, the Only Begotten.
YHWY was not a Son. YHWY was with God and was God.
You believe El and YHWH are the same?
How do you explain these verses?
Deuteronomy 32
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.YHWH received a portion from the Most High. YHWH is called a son of God.
You believe Jesus was YHWH.
Jesus was praying to the Father God El.
Here is an example where he calls on him by name.
Matthew 27
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “(BC)ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2007,21:53) M42 Where did you run to?
I did not run away. Just got back on.
So let's see. I would like you to explain your description of the dual nature.Quote You believe El and YHWH are the same? How do you explain these verses?
Deuteronomy 32
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.YHWH received a portion from the Most High. YHWH is called a son of God.
You believe Jesus was YHWH.
Jesus was praying to the Father God El.
Here is an example where he calls on him by name.
Matthew 27
46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “(BC)ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN MEI said I believe YHWH was with God and Was God. But by no stretch of the imagination does your vrs say that he was a son before he was born as the man Jesus. The Word made flesh.:O
Quote Deuteronomy 32
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Mercy
**ALL Things** were made by him and for him! And **BY HIM** ALL Things consist!
Quote what I am saying does not contradict that. YHWH still did all those things
Good!
Jesus is Co-creator of all things with the Father and the Holy Spirit!
For they Are ONE!
Quote I did not run away. Just got back on.
So let's see. I would like you to explain your description of the dual nature.M42
I already have!
What I am saying in a nut shell is:
In the beginning was the Elohim. A divine council. El the Father was the “Most High”.
YHWH one of El's sons created the world and everything in it. The world fell.
El (the Father) then assigned the divisions of men to his sons. YHWH received Jacobs people has his inheritance.
YHWH promised to save his people and through the prophets his spirit moved men to fortell of the coming of the messiah.
YHWH the son of God (El) who formed the world came to earth as the man Jesus.
Jesus spoke of his Father (EL) the Most High, The Father, The God that is invisible and that no man has seen. Jesus (YHWH) returned to the right hand of God the Father (EL) in heaven.
Jesus (YHWH) will return to gather together the people his Father (EL) gave him.
Quote What I am saying in a nut shell is: In the beginning was the Elohim. A divine council. El the Father was the “Most High”.
YHWH one of El's sons created the world and everything in it. The world fell.
El (the Father) then assigned the divisions of men to his sons. YHWH received Jacobs people has his inheritance.
YHWH promised to save his people and through the prophets his spirit moved men to fortell of the coming of the messiah.
YHWH the son of God (El) who formed the world came to earth as the man Jesus.
Jesus spoke of his Father (EL) the Most High, The Father, The God that is invisible and that no man has seen. Jesus (YHWH) returned to the right hand of God the Father (EL) in heaven.
Jesus (YHWH) will return to gather together the people his Father (EL) gave him.
Mercy
I am glad you cleared that up.
However there is no scriptural evidence that “EL” The Father was referred to as the Father of a Son until The Word took on human form.
All other inferrences were prophetic of the Son of God being born of the virgin Mary. This is when God became a Father. Jesus is the only Begotten Son. But, being that he is the firstborn Son, he now can bring many Sons into Glory.
My point is, if you say that the Word was the son before the birth of Jesus, this would imply that the Word/God had a beginning as all sons do!
I am with you on everything else. Deuternomy 32:8-9
addresses that point.
8When the Most High (EL THE FATHER) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's (YHWH THE SON) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
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