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Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2006,00:42)
To WorshippingJesus.It is not I who says it. It is scripture.
You are contending with scripture, not me.Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.Luke 18:19
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.John 12:49-50
49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
Luke 18:18-19
18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.Jesus did not say “I am not good”, nor did he say “I am not God”. He questioned the rich young ruler's rationale for calling him “good”. I believe He is saying, in essence, “are you calling me God?” And yes WJ is correct, by any measure Jesus was/is “good”
Quote I am curious what you have to say then about all the examples of baptism in Acts. In every case where a name under which to be baptised is mentioned, They baptize in Jesus name. Did the apostles understand something different then you do? You say Mat 28 depicts 3 person yet when they obey Jesus' commandment they baptize in Jesus name only. Did the apostles obey or dissobey Jesus?
M42
Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Notice, Jesus says all power is given to him in heaven and in earth.
Jesus spent many days with the disciples.
John said that the world would not be able to contain the books if all the things Jesus said or did were written.
So the Apostles understood the Godhead. Father,Son and Holy Ghost.
All the fullness of the Godhead being in Christ, and that he had been given a name above all names. So they baptised in the name that is above all names.
But that does not negate what Jesus said. There is 3 spoken of. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Study the scripture, disect it, break it down, research all the possible records and most ancient copys of the scriptures.
You will find that Mathew 28:18,19 is irrefutable evidence, along with many other scriptures, that there is three.
Jesus said it. Not I. So why dont men believe it.
WJ quoted
Quote t8 Why do you turn your face from the many scriptures that undeniably claim that Jesus is the Word/God.
WJ. You won't convince this lot because they are brainwashed by their Arian cult. They are resistant to truth because they have lost the love of it. They are Wilfully blind. It is a form of dishonesty.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.
Quote Hi w,
Is Christ just a shell for the trinity?————–
NH
Tell me. Is you body a shell without the Spirit?
Jam 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.And what is your faith in, NH?
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Only God or demons can be in a person!
Quote WJ quoted Quote
t8Why do you turn your face from the many scriptures that undeniably claim that Jesus is the Word/God.
WJ. You won't convince this lot because they are brainwashed by their Arian cult. They are resistant to truth because they have lost the love of it. They are Wilfully blind. It is a form of dishonesty.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.
CB
I am sure you are right. But its not the ones that are dogmatic in resisting the truth on this forum.
Its the ones who hide in the shadows of this forum who maybe are not sure.
Hopefully the Glorious light of the Gospel of Christ/God will shine unto them.
Hi W,
Tradition has always seemed a good alternative foundation.
Tradition has always drawn men tight and they have always been tempted to put it above scripture.Mk 7
” 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Whatever plants my Father did not plant will be pulled out.
Such are tares that are bound for the fire.Quote Hi W,
Tradition has always seemed a good alternative foundation.
Tradition has always drawn men tight and they have always been tempted to put it above scripture.Mk 7
” 7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Whatever plants my Father did not plant will be pulled out.
Such are tares that are bound for the fire.We present you with pure scripture NH, and you call them tradition.
It seems you hold on to tradition. Why do you not accept all the scriptures not just a few?
Hi W,
You seem to assemble the scriptures to align them with catholic tradition
instead of letting them assemble themselves according to the Spirit of truth.Isaiah 6:3 “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.”
Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Hi,
What amazing scriptwriting-one for each person in God!
This approach is an embarrassment to serious trinitarians
No
God is ONEHi,
Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?Is 63
16For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.Is 64
8But now, O LORD,You are our Father,
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all of us are the work of Your hand.Is God a trinity
or rather is He not the Father?Eph 4
6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in allWho will say AMEN?
First thing I need to make it clear I'm not part of the administration of this site and with that said what I'm doing may be against some rules. If so I accept whatever discipline needs to be assigned to me.
This seems to be the hottest topic going and worth discussion. But with the other threads on this topic more time is spent flinging accusations about others character then with supportive scriptures.
I'm asking that only those post who are willing to stick to scriptures as they relate to the topic. And by stick to scripture I do not mean posting scripture about the ultimate punishment of those in non-agreement.
Post scriptures supporting your position, give your interpretation (on your scripture or another's), make explanations, but please, no comments about any other person or group.
Let's reason together.
I suppose it is only right that I throw the first scriptures out.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: This scripture indicates there is the Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost but does not say they are all are equal.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. To me this scripture indicates that God is the Father but Jesus seems somewhat excluded from being “God” the source.
Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. This verse shows the highly exalted position of Jesus but at the same time seems to indicate there is more to the Father then there is to Jesus otherwise why do our thanks need to go through Jesus to the Father.
Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. It seems to show that it is ok to worship Jesus as the Son of God
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This scripture seems to indicate that God is a title and made up of at least two beings.
Eph 3;9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Seems to indicate that God used Jesus to accomlish His will, putting Jesus in submission to the Father.
Jn 14 “You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” Once again it seems that the Father is more then the Son.
Phil 2-5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Seems that Jesus was more before He was “made into the likeness of man” but even then He did not see Himself equal to God.
1Jn 4-2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: this shows that Jesus was/is more then a man, all men come in the flesh.
Jn 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. indicates that the Holy Ghost is something seperate from the Father.
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
right now I'm using this post as a storage area for all scriptures relating to God, Son, Holy Spirit, I will remove ones that apply equally to both sides of the arguement. If others have scriptures they believe should be in here post them on this thread and I will copy them to this one, once we have a complete list of scriptures that relate, they can be seperated into pro/con and see how each side interprets both. This should make it easier to get the big picture.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 14 “You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
Jn 14-26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Eph 3;9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Colossians 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him
Colossians 2: For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Phil 2-5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
1Jn 4-2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Seems to support the idea of Jesus being God in the flesh but also could be that God was manifested in the life of Jesus.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The Son seems to be called the everlasting Father this scripture would seem to be a problem for either side of the trinity argument. Is this a good translation?
Jn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. This verse seems to leave little room for doubt that Jesus pre-existed the world and it also indicates that the Father is greater since He is the giver of; power, those who will be saved, work to be done. He also said “know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” which seems clear that the Father is the only true God.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort This seems quite clear that The Father is God to the Son.
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
Col 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Seems to indicate Jesus is a deity like unto the Father but since it was the “Fathers good pleasure” that allowed it, it indicates that the Father is greater then the Son.
As to fullness in Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. I guess since we are filled with the fullness of God it won't revel too much about a possible trinity.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 24 2006,13:04) First thing I need to make it clear I'm not part of the administration of this site and with that said what I'm doing may be against some rules. If so I accept whatever discipline needs to be assigned to me. This seems to be the hottest topic going and worth discussion. But with the other threads on this topic more time is spent flinging accusations about others character then with supportive scriptures.
I'm asking that only those post who are willing to stick to scriptures as they relate to the topic. And by stick to scripture I do not mean posting scripture about the ultimate punishment of those in non-agreement.
Post scriptures supporting your position, give your interpretation (on your scripture or another's), make explanations, but please, no comments about any other person or group.
Let's reason together.
Amen. Great Idea. Do you have any rhyme or reason behind the order in which you are posting the scriptures? Or..are you posting them as they come to mind and making commets on them?thanks,
sscott
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