The Trinity Doctrine

[seekingtruth]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,15:59)

Quote WorshippingJesus, I'm sure you do, I also believed just as you for over 20 years, I know I was saved and God was working in my life. But a few years ago God gave me a revelation that although it could be a product of my imagination it seems to be supported by the whole of scripture. I always hesitate to tell it as I get it from both sides but since I believe it to be true I'm bound to tell it and it is the function of the body to correct or accept by rightly dividing truth (however I mostly get opinions). God is far greater then our reality (the physical universe), He is greater then the spiritual reality (which I believe we do not even begin to understand). When the Father made our “reality” He was manifested (not created) anew in this physical reality as the Son (begotten, the firstborn of all creation). The Son was 100% God (when you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that can be comprehended), but God (the Father) couldn't even begin to be contained in the Son. From that point on the Son did all things for the Father. I believe when it says “God” in scriptures that it is a “title” which refers to the Father/Son and depending on what it is in reference to, will decide if it is one, or the other, or both. If it has to do with attributes it is referring to both, if it has to do positions, decisions, authority, etc. it is the Father as Jesus would never do anything except what the Father wanted done, if it referred to tasks, visits, etc. it is referring to the Son as the Father seems to have done everything through His Son. I believe this fits with the verses which indicate there is only one God, the Father and there is none like him (there is however a Father/Son “Godhead”, after all it is scripture that tells us that me and my wife are one flesh, and that They are one), while other verses are also quite clear that Jesus is independent of the Father (He had His own will not always the same as the Father) and not His equal (but the Fathers will, not His). The Son is worthy of worship and having proved Himself, the Father has now turned all power and authority (in all of this creation) over to Him. As I indicated at the beginning I could be way off in left field (it was what I first thought) but it does seem to fit scripture and bring harmony to what was conflict. As to the Holy Spirit I do not believe “He” is a person as we would think of a person but also I read from scripture that there is more to “Him” then just the active will of God. Being obviously spiritual in nature I believe we lack the ability to truly comprehend what “He” is. this is just my opinion. May God grant us wisdom.   SS Amen. I almost agree with.

Just curious, what do you dis-agree with and why (especially if you have scripture to share) I'm not looking to “trip you up” or play games, truth is only a benefit to me when I'm willing to embrace it and most times this requires setting aside my currently held beliefs when confronted with it.

Personally I do not see the trinity issue as good vs evil but as seeing through the glass darkly. Our salvation is not based on the level of accuracy for our understanding of what God is (who can even begin to understand even a small part of Him)The danger lies with continued resistance (hardening of the heart) to the Holy Spirit as He is leading us to all truth (this is a general statement to all of us, not directed to you).

Just my opinion

Wm

[music4two]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,19:56)

M42 You say… Quote You were speaking of an intervention of God to either preserve or destroy the writings of Arius. I did not even broach that subject. I am not the one who brought the comparison of the preservation of scripture into the conversation. You made the post in defence of Arian and his followers. Do you even know what you said? Or was this another copy and paste post, the words of someone else and not your own. Here is Part of it… Quote The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be “one substance” with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'. Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html Even though he (Constatine) had begun his reign with an edict of religious toleration, he now forbade the heretics (mostly Arians) to assemble in any public or private place, including private homes, and ordered that they be deprived of “every gathering point for [their] superstitious meetings,” including “all the houses of prayer.” These were to be given to the orthodox Church. The heretical teachers were forced to flee, and many of their students were coerced back into the orthodox fold. The emperor also ordered a search for their books, which were to be confiscated and destroyed. Hiding the works of Arius carried a severe penalty – the death sentence. So do you promote this or not? Why would you post it? You say… Quote Again I did not say God wanted them preserved. I simply stated that we have little evidence to base any true statement of what Arius believed.I also never said Arius had any truth. I have never aligned myself with Arius or the watchtower. In fact I abhor the watchtower doctrines.  I think they are a slander of the character and mercy of God. I also did not peg Arius' accusers of being trinitarian. Instead I simple called them accusers. You are the one that for some reason labeled them Trinitarians. So I ask again. Do you support or defend the post. Why would you post it? You say… Quote writings were preserved. Josephus, Ceasar and many others. Do you ascert they are inspired by the Holy Spirit because they were preserved? I never said that we were short of the truth without Arius. you said it. I do not need Arius' writings to defend my beliefs nor do i need any other non biblical sources, be they the Nicean council, non scriptural words or Greek Philosophy. What kind of response do you expect if you post 2 pages of documents in defence of the Arians. I was simply responding to the preservation of scripture because the implication is that somehow we missed something and Part of the truth was destroyed by trinitarians . You say… Quote You say I call people who believe in the Trinity, Trinitarians. that is true, but only becaue they profess a belief in that system or doctrine. I have never professed that I am a follower of watchtower or Arianism. In fact if the description of Arianism you quoted is really what He believed, (without evidence from the period difficult to do) I am adamantly against that belief too. I have never detailed what I believe and therefore you have no way to know it.  Your assumptions have no bearing at all. I have not labeled anyone but only quoted what they have labeled themselves. Then again, Why would you post such? Here is some detail of what you believe… Quote As I have posted many times, If Jesus remained God while on this Earth, then He cannot be an example for the rest of us. Either Jesus stopped being God or was never one to begin with. That is the only way he can be a proper and real example for us. On more then one occasion I have ask you to show how your doctrine functions to make us more like Christ. You have understandibly ignored those posts. Obviously your teaching does not work in the real world. It is a philosophy that has nothing in common with real functional teaching. If Jesus is anything but fully human he cannot be our example. Now I don’t call myself a Trinitarian. But I don’t care if they call me one. Because I hold a Trinitarian view. So you say that Jesus the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God and became a man, to me that puts you in a dirivitive of the Arian view. Jesus is not God. Scripture nowhere says the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God. Can any being stop being that being. Sounds foolish because it is. Jesus is and was the Word, the Eternal life that was with the Father. He is the Same yesterday, today and forever. Phil 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. These scriptures show plainly that Jesus was God and made himself of no reputation. He became a servant by taking on a human body and was born as a man. The Spirit of Jesus that was in that body is still the Eternal life the Word/God. He simply laid aside any claim to deity so he as a man submitted totally to the Father might fulfil all righteousness and become a faithful high priest. The context of the above scripture is “let this mind be in you”. We are to have the same attitude that Jesus had in being a servant and humbling himself even to death. Though he had the power to lay his life down and take it again, he laid it down. John 13 3 Jesus **knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands**, and that he was come from God, and went to God; 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. 14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 **For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you**.

Your post is so full of assumptions it is almost funny.

If you will read carefully you will see I posted web sites indicating the sources of those quotes. It is not as you assume a pledgerism (sp)
Secondly I posted those quotes not in defense of Arianism but as proof that his writings were destroyed, which was the purpose of my original post. By doing so I was attempting to prove that no accurate description of Arius' beliefs can be determined.

You state —
Here is some detail of what you believe…

As I have posted many times, If Jesus remained God while on this Earth, then He cannot be an example for the rest of us. Either Jesus stopped being God or was never one to begin with. That is the only way he can be a proper and real example for us.

You are searching high and low to find some pidgeon hole of predjudice to put me in. While it is true that I could have phraised “remained God” better. I did indicate that there were two possibilities to choose from to make it work. You chose to think I believed the one you could slam me on. How very dark ages of you again. In fact I do not believe Jesus gave up some personal divinity to become a man.

You state —-
So you say that Jesus the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God and became a man, to me that puts you in a dirivitive of the Arian view. Jesus is not God.

Another assumption on your part. I did not say that I believe anything of the sort. You completely misquote me again. How dare you again!!!!!
Do not ever ever use terms like Word/God and employ them as coming from me. I would never use such a breach of hermaneutics to come up with that concept.

Putting words in my mouth and reams of assumptions. This is the jist of your post. Such good fruit!

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,23:35)

Quote As the situation with Ananias and Sapphira showed the Spirit of God fully represents God in His creation and must be treated with the respect due to God Himself. Likewise blasphemy against the Spirit is more serious than against the vessel of the Spirit of God, Christ. NH what scripture do you have for this? Gods Spirit is his representation for the universe? Show me the scripture NH.

Hi W,
The Spirit is not God's representative as another person.
That is what you say.

But the Spirit of God is God's presence.
It is as the finger of God.

[music4two]

WorshipingJesus,
Let me appologise if I sounded harsh in my last post to you. I do not like to be labeled as something I am not.

I believe at the root of our different views of the Godhead is a missunderstanding of the very beginning of study. It is impossible to understand writings (scripture) from a Hebrew culture while thinking in terms of a western culture that is so much different.

Let me suggest you take a look at this web site to get a better picture of Hebrew culture and language.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html

For those that do not wish that indepth of study, let me give just a few word study examples from this site.

And God created man in his own image

God (Strong's #430)
The Hebrew word (elohiym) is the plural form of (elo'ah) literally meaning “strength” and “power” and is usually translated as God or god. The — is the masculine plural suffix and when added to this word becomes (elohiym) which is usually translated as gods or judges as they are strong and powerful ones. But it is also commonly used for God as a name because he is “thee” strong and powerful one.
Create (Strong's #1254)
The Hebrew word behind created is the Hebrew verb (bara). The idea of “creating” is an abstract thought that is foreign to Hebrew thought. The concrete understanding behind this word can be seen in 1 Samuel 2:29, “Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?” In this passage is the word “fattening” which is the same Hebrew verb (bara). By extension this word also means to “fill up.”
Man (Strong's #120)
The Hebrew word for man is (adam) and is also the name of the first man.
Image (Strong's #6754)
The word (tselem) is literally a shadow which is the outline or representation of the original.

And Elohiym, the Great Powerful One, filled the man with a representation of himself

When we read “And God created man in his own image” our minds form a mental picture of what we look like and then attribute this picture to God himself. In the Hebrews mind it is not the appearance of something that they concentrate on but its function. This passage is not implying a picture of man or God but their function. Through the Hebrew words of this text we see that God had placed within man a shadow or representation of his own function – goal, purpose, thought, etc. It is our responsibility to live our lives as representatives of God, acting in the same manner as he would.

Exodus 31:3
By: Jeff A. Benner
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship

Wisdom (Strong's #2451)
The verbal root for this word is (hhakham) and means to separate between good and bad, right and wrong, left and right, up and down, etc. This is often used in the context of a skilled workman as in Exodus 28:3, “And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise (hhakham) hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.” These workmen are filled with the spirit of “wisdom” which is in the Hebrew (hhakhmah), the noun form of the verb (hhakham). A person with wisdom is one who has the ability to separate between good and bad, right and wrong, left and right, up and down, etc.
Understanding (Strong's #8394)
The Hebrew word for understanding is (tavun) comes from the verbal root (biyn) meaning to “understand” but the more deeper meaning of this word can be found in a related verbal root – (banah) which means to “build.” In order to build or construct something one must have the ability to plan and understand the processes needed. This is the idea behind the verb (biyn) and its derivative noun (tavun), to be able to discern the processes of construction.
Knowledge (Strong's #1847)
The Hebrew word for knowledge is (da'at), a noun derived from the verb odi (yada) meaning “to know.” The idea of “knowing” in Ancient Hebrew thought is similar to our understanding of knowing but is more personal and intimate. We may say that we “know” someone but simply mean we “know” of his or her existence but, in Hebrew thought one can only “know” someone if they have a personal and intimate relationship. In Genesis 18:19 God says about Abraham “I know him” meaning he has a very close relationship with Abraham. In Genesis 4:1 it says that Adam “knew Eve his wife” implying a very intimate sexual relationship. Knowledge is the intimate ability to perform a specific task or function.

With the more in-depth meaning behind these three words we can better understand Exodus 31:3 as follows;
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, with the ability to distinguish between the good and the bad, and with the ability to discern the processes of construction, and with an intimate ability to perform the tasks, and in all manner of workmanship.

Can you see the much richer context of the Hebrew language in these studies. So much is missed in our English translations and thru our Western thinking.
Before anyone can lay claim to understanding any of the Bible (OT or NT, since they were all written by Hebrews) they must have a clear understanding of the cultural mindset of the authors of said scriptures.

When we think in terms of philosophical proofs or cut and paste theology we miss the point far too often. When I speak of cut and paste, I am refering to the discredited tactic of pulling a scripture out of context and putting it with several more derived in the same fasion and putting them together to form a teaching.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You ask
'So by this I assume that you are saying that the Spirit is equal to God? “

God is spirit and without His Spirit He would not be God.

Your question predisposes that I agree with you that the Spirit of God is not the spirit of God but is an anonymous third person in God and such a thought to me is ridiculous. Do you have another person inside you called your spirit as 1 Cor 2 suggests that must be the case if you accept this idea?

The addition of the third person to turn the binity into the first version of the popular trinity myth only made the whole fabrication even more bizarre.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Your post is so full of assumptions it is almost funny. If you will read carefully you will see I posted web sites indicating the sources of those quotes. It is not as you assume a pledgerism (sp) Secondly I posted those quotes not in defense of Arianism but as proof that his writings were destroyed, which was the purpose of my original post. By doing so I was attempting to prove that no accurate description of Arius' beliefs can be determined. You state — Here is some detail of what you believe… As I have posted many times, If Jesus remained God while on this Earth, then He cannot be an example for the rest of us. Either Jesus stopped being God or was never one to begin with. That is the only way he can be a proper and real example for us. You are searching high and low to find some pidgeon hole of predjudice to put me in. While it is true that I could have phraised “remained God” better. I did indicate that there were two possibilities to choose from to make it work. You chose to think I believed the one you could slam me on. How very dark ages of you again. In fact I do not believe Jesus gave up some personal divinity to become a man. You state —- So you say that Jesus the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God and became a man, to me that puts you in a dirivitive of the Arian view. Jesus is not God. Another assumption on your part. I did not say that I believe anything of the sort. You completely misquote me again. How dare you again!!!!! Do not ever ever use terms like Word/God and employ them as coming from me. I would never use such a breach of hermaneutics to come up with that concept. Putting words in my mouth and reams of assumptions. This is the jist of your post. Such good fruit!

m42

Im glad you cleared that up! Thank you!

Blessings to you!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

WorshipingJesus, Let me appologise if I sounded harsh in my last post to you. I do not like to be labeled as something I am not. I believe at the root of our different views of the Godhead is a missunderstanding of the very beginning of study. It is impossible to understand writings (scripture) from a Hebrew culture while thinking in terms of a western culture that is so much different. Let me suggest you take a look at this web site to get a better picture of Hebrew culture and language. http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/index.html For those that do not wish that indepth of study, let me give just a few word study examples from this site. And God created man in his own image God (Strong's #430) The Hebrew word (elohiym) is the plural form of (elo'ah) literally meaning “strength” and “power” and is usually translated as God or god. The — is the masculine plural suffix and when added to this word becomes (elohiym) which is usually translated as gods or judges as they are strong and powerful ones. But it is also commonly used for God as a name because he is “thee” strong and powerful one. Create (Strong's #1254) The Hebrew word behind created is the Hebrew verb (bara). The idea of “creating” is an abstract thought that is foreign to Hebrew thought. The concrete understanding behind this word can be seen in 1 Samuel 2:29, “Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?” In this passage is the word “fattening” which is the same Hebrew verb (bara). By extension this word also means to “fill up.” Man (Strong's #120) The Hebrew word for man is (adam) and is also the name of the first man. Image (Strong's #6754) The word (tselem) is literally a shadow which is the outline or representation of the original. And Elohiym, the Great Powerful One, filled the man with a representation of himself When we read “And God created man in his own image” our minds form a mental picture of what we look like and then attribute this picture to God himself. In the Hebrews mind it is not the appearance of something that they concentrate on but its function. This passage is not implying a picture of man or God but their function. Through the Hebrew words of this text we see that God had placed within man a shadow or representation of his own function – goal, purpose, thought, etc. It is our responsibility to live our lives as representatives of God, acting in the same manner as he would. Exodus 31:3 By: Jeff A. Benner And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship Wisdom (Strong's #2451) The verbal root for this word is (hhakham) and means to separate between good and bad, right and wrong, left and right, up and down, etc. This is often used in the context of a skilled workman as in Exodus 28:3, “And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise (hhakham) hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.” These workmen are filled with the spirit of “wisdom” which is in the Hebrew (hhakhmah), the noun form of the verb (hhakham). A person with wisdom is one who has the ability to separate between good and bad, right and wrong, left and right, up and down, etc. Understanding (Strong's #8394) The Hebrew word for understanding is (tavun) comes from the verbal root (biyn) meaning to “understand” but the more deeper meaning of this word can be found in a related verbal root – (banah) which means to “build.” In order to build or construct something one must have the ability to plan and understand the processes needed. This is the idea behind the verb (biyn) and its derivative noun (tavun), to be able to discern the processes of construction. Knowledge (Strong's #1847) The Hebrew word for knowledge is (da'at), a noun derived from the verb odi (yada) meaning “to know.” The idea of “knowing” in Ancient Hebrew thought is similar to our understanding of knowing but is more personal and intimate. We may say that we “know” someone but simply mean we “know” of his or her existence but, in Hebrew thought one can only “know” someone if they have a personal and intimate relationship. In Genesis 18:19 God says about Abraham “I know him” meaning he has a very close relationship with Abraham. In Genesis 4:1 it says that Adam “knew Eve his wife” implying a very intimate sexual relationship. Knowledge is the intimate ability to perform a specific task or function. With the more in-depth meaning behind these three words we can better understand Exodus 31:3 as follows; And I have filled him with the spirit of God, with the ability to distinguish between the good and the bad, and with the ability to discern the processes of construction, and with an intimate ability to perform the tasks, and in all manner of workmanship. Can you see the much richer context of the Hebrew language in these studies. So much is missed in our English translations and thru our Western thinking. Before anyone can lay claim to understanding any of the Bible (OT or NT, since they were all written by Hebrews) they must have a clear understanding of the cultural mindset of the authors of said scriptures. When we think in terms of philosophical proofs or cut and paste theology we miss the point far too often. When I speak of cut and paste, I am refering to the discredited tactic of pulling a scripture out of context and putting it with several more derived in the same fasion and putting them together to form a teaching.

m42

No apology needed. I am a very strong willed person and come across a little forcefull sometimes. My good quality of being confident can soetimes be a weakness.

So I hope you also bear with me in my folly also.

Thanks for the info and I will be studying those things.

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi SS

You say…

Quote

God is far greater then our reality (the physical universe), He is greater then the spiritual reality (which I believe we do not even begin to understand). When the Father made our “reality” He was manifested (not created) anew in this physical reality as the Son (begotten, the firstborn of all creation)

I’m not sure what you are saying here, but if you are implying that Jesus the Son came into being “He was manifested (not created) anew in this physical reality as the Son”, that would indicate that the Word had a beginning, so I would disagree.

Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.

Jesus is a being in himself who now sits at the right hand of the Father from where he came, all power in heaven and earth given to him, and all the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in him.

He was the co-creator with the Father and the Spirit.

You say…

Quote

The Son was 100% God (when you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that can be comprehended)

I agree.

You say…

Quote

, but God (the Father) couldn't even begin to be contained in the Son. From that point on the Son did all things for the Father.

I disagree..

Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus was again co-creator with the Father and the Spirit.

Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

You say…

Quote

I believe when it says “God” in scriptures that it is a “title” which refers to the Father/Son and depending on what it is in reference to, will decide if it is one, or the other, or both. If it has to do with attributes it is referring to both, if it has to do positions, decisions, authority, etc. it is the Father as Jesus would never do anything except what the Father wanted done, if it referred to tasks, visits, etc. it is referring to the Son as the Father seems to have done everything through His Son.

I’m not sure what you are saying here, but if you are implying that Jesus does all the work, and the Father just makes the decisions, then I disagree.

Again…

Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

You say…

Quote

I believe this fits with the verses which indicate there is only one God, the Father and there is none like him (there is however a Father/Son “Godhead”, after all it is scripture that tells us that me and my wife are one flesh, and that They are one), while other verses are also quite clear that Jesus is independent of the Father (He had His own will not always the same as the Father) and not His equal (but the Fathers will, not His). The Son is worthy of worship and having proved Himself, the Father has now turned all power and authority (in all of this creation) over to Him.

I agree, except I don’t think that Jesus earned the creation because he was faithful.

All things were created for him.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And Im not quite sure what you mean when you say..

(He had His own will not always the same as the Father)

If you mean like “not my will but thine be done”.

Yes the Son was subject to the Fathers will.

You say…

Quote

As I indicated at the beginning I could be way off in left field (it was what I first thought) but it does seem to fit scripture and bring harmony to what was conflict. As to the Holy Spirit I do not believe “He” is a person as we would think of a person but also I read from scripture that there is more to “Him” then just the active will of God. Being obviously spiritual in nature I believe we lack the ability to truly comprehend what “He” is. This is just my opinion. May God grant us wisdom.

The Holy Spirit is definitely a person and is God. Jesus uses the pronouns, He, Him, whom, in many scriptures. Our Lord wanted us to know there was “Another”. He spoke of the Father his whole ministry and nearing the end of his ministry he introduces the Holy Spirit to us.

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you **another Comforter**, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him [autos] not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him [autos]; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The word for “ him” is [autos] which means,
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same

It was translated AV – him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121.

That’s over 3000 times in the New Testament “autos” is used referring to a person.

The Holy Spirit :
·Speaks, Acts 13:2
·Hears, John 16:13
·Teaches, John 14:26
·Intercedes, Rom 8:26
·Testifies, John 15:26
·Guides, John 16:13
·Commands, Acts 16:6,7
·Appoints, Acts 20:28
·Leads, Rom 8:14
·Reproves, and convicts of sin, John 16:8
·Seals, God's promise in believers' hearts, Eph 1:13,14
·shapes the individual's and community's life to Christ's, Rom 8:1-17

In Scripture, the Holy Spirit has intellect, emotions, and will, and can be grieved.

Scriptural evidence of the Person of the Holy Spirit is overwhelming,

I don’t see how any one can deny the Person of the Holy Spirit.

But they do.

Hope this helps.

Blessings  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

As the situation with Ananias and Sapphira showed the Spirit of God fully represents God in His creation and must be treated with the respect due to God Himself. Likewise blasphemy against the Spirit is more serious than against the vessel of the Spirit of God, Christ.

NH

Just show me scripture where the Spirit is Gods representative for the universe as you say above.

This is not Star Wars, we do not serve the Force.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Seekingtruth.

Just realized I addressed you as SS.

Sorry.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say

“Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.”

Surely we should not be so vain as to believe life began at Genesis 1? That was only the moment God decided to create a physical universe and earth and along with that all the measures that go with visible life.

Before that was “the beginning”.

[seekingtruth]

WorshippingJesus,
Thank you for responding with scriptures not opinions.

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that would indicate that the Word had a beginning, so I would disagree.

Actually what I've presented is that the Word was manifested from the eternal Father, so while He had a beginning at the point of creation He is eternal in nature.

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Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.

I'm not sure that scriptures teach that “in the beginning” means the start of time anymore then “it all started with” would. I do agree that everything that was made in this “reality” was made through Him.

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Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I see this as a supporting scripture for the position of Jesus containing all that is possible in a bodily form of God, another way to put it is not all of God is in Christ but all of Christ is God.

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I’m not sure what you are saying here, but if you are implying that Jesus does all the work, and the Father just makes the decisions, then I disagree. Again… Jn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Do you have more then that one scripture? I see it differently as I run a company and I work everyday by making decisions where others do the “work”, but believe me, I “worketh”.

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I agree, except I don’t think that Jesus earned the creation because he was faithful.

Agreed, poor choice of words on my part, it was not so much “earned” but more of a “He accomplished what needed to be done.”

Regarding the Holy Spirit I agree but dis-agree. Currently my position is based entirely on a take of the whole of scripture. In other words as I read the scriptures they assign personal traits to the Holy Spirit but seem to stop short of presenting Him as a person. I'm not willing or able to defend a position without a further revelation from God (by the Holy Spirit) ironic isn't it.

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Seekingtruth. Just realized I addressed you as SS. Sorry.

No problem your not the first, or the second, or the third,…..

Wm

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2006,04:29)

Hi W, You say “Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.” Surely we should not be so vain as to believe life began at Genesis 1? That was only the moment God decided to create a physical universe and earth and along with that all the measures that go with visible life. Before that was “the beginning”.

Nick,
I agree “in the beginning” I believe to mean the start of our story (so to speak) not of time.

[music4two]

WorshippingJesus,
I am curious if you have ever studied the word “spirit”.

Look it up in several Bible dictionaries. Remember my post on hermaneutics? You were very kind in your remarks about it and agreed with the principles contained in it.
Let me refresh your memory on one aspect of proper study methods.

Define questionable words or phrases thru Bible dictionaries or Encyclopedias. Preferably ones that derive their definitions from the original languages. (again use several sources) Do not make the mistake of trying to research everything yourself. Refer to other experts in Greek and Hebrew. Always use the most common literal definition unless there is very clear evidence to use another. (bear in mind this evidence must also follow these hermeneutical principles)

Please bear this in mind when looking at the definitions of Spirit.

[david]

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David How about the name of the Father and the name of the Son, are they a person?

As I pointed out, the word name doesn't have to indicate personage. In this scripture, it could be speaking of one grasping the authority of the Father.
Just like when we speak of “stopping in the name of the law,” it is referring to recognizing the “authority of the law.”

Being baptized into Christ, means more than knowing his name. It means understanding what is behind the name, and recognizing his authority.

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David Also the Law dosnt think, feel, speak, comfort ,Guide, teach, can be grieved, can be lied to, can hear, can move, is alive… Sometimes I wonder. I Cor 1: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Sometimes I wonder too, worshipping Jesus guy,
I DIDN'T SAY THE LAW THINKS, FEELS, ETC.
I said the exact opposite. I said that the word “name” doesn't always mean a person is involved. And obviously, in the case of the “law” this is true.

Let me try this again.

In the “name” of all that is true….(what does that mean)?

Does truth have a name WJ? If so, please tell me what it is?

I didn't say that that law was a person, did I?

And by quoting that scripture, if you're implying that I'm foolish, you are also saying that God chose me….so, I fail to understand why you posted it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, You say “Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.” Surely we should not be so vain as to believe life began at Genesis 1? That was only the moment God decided to create a physical universe and earth and along with that all the measures that go with visible life. Before that was “the beginning”.

NH

Then show me scripture saying Jesus the Word/God had a beginning.

**All things** were made by him and for him. Again since he is a living being in the Universe, the created universe, did he create himself?

There was nothing else before **ALL THINGS** except God.
God and creation.

There is no proof that Jesus had a begining. In fact since he Was and is the Word/God is all the proof we need. God didnt create himself.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Does truth have a name WJ?  If so, please tell me what it is?

David

Truth does have a name.

Jn14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Do you know him David?

II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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David How about the name of the Father and the name of the Son, are they a person?   As I pointed out, the word name doesn't have to indicate personage.  In this scripture, it could be speaking of one grasping the authority of the Father. Just like when we speak of “stopping in the name of the law,” it is referring to recognizing the “authority of the law.” Being baptized into Christ, means more than knowing his name.  It means understanding what is behind the name, and recognizing his authority. Quote   David Also the Law dosnt think, feel, speak, comfort ,Guide, teach, can be grieved, can be lied to, can hear, can move, is alive… Sometimes I wonder. I Cor 1: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: Sometimes I wonder too, worshipping Jesus guy, I DIDN'T SAY THE LAW THINKS, FEELS, ETC. I said the exact opposite.  I said that the word “name” doesn't always mean a person is involved.  And obviously, in the case of the “law” this is true. Let me try this again. In the “name” of all that is true….(what does that mean)? Does truth have a name WJ?  If so, please tell me what it is? I didn't say that that law was a person, did I? And by quoting that scripture, if you're implying that I'm foolish, you are also saying that God chose me….so, I fail to understand why you posted it?

David

By the way I really do Love you in the Lord, but I really think you are striving to make the scriptures say something other than what they say.

Jesus plainly speaks of 3 persons in Matt 28. If he would have meant something other than this he would have said so.

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Sorry it is the truth.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hello Brothers & Sisters In Christ.

The debate over the Godhead is an old one to say the least.

Men for centurys have distrorted and wrested the scriptures and in many cases cast them behind their backs in order to support their Anti-Scriptural views.

Satan has sought to destroy the word of God off the face of the planet with no success.

Jesus said…

Matt 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

The Apostle Paul warned of the deception that would come to mislead the children of God.

II Cor 11:
13 For such are false apostles, [Messengers], deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles, [Messengers], of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Gal 2:4
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

The beginnings of most cults happens when men withdraw themselves from the mainstream of the body of
Christ ,because they have a new revelation or truth and stop meeting with true believers, those who love God, having the Spirit and living a seperated Godly life. They begin to isolate themselves, very often having an elitist Spirit.

I suppose the biggest attack Satan could bring is against the Godhead. Of course Satan can’t touch God, but if he can deceive his people by causing them to believe a lie, then he would be successful in dividing the body and distorting ones view of who God is.

Some of the toughest scriptures for most of these decievers to deal with that supports the Deity of Jesus is Jn 1:1-3.

Many try to change them, or ignore them, and maybe even some secretly wish they were not in the Canon. Some may even wish that all the writings of John would disappear.

These are foundational scriptures which put together with Old and New Testament scriptures becomes evidence proving Jesus is God. Not the Father or the Spirit, but God, One with the Father and the Spirit.

There is no denying their validity, or accuracy. All the translators of the major translations agreed  the same.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Put these scriptures together with the many others speaking of the Godhead. And you have irrefutable evidence that can not be denied without turning the head and stopping the ears.

The following is a quote from the Gospel way.

                                                             John 1:1

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” refers to Jesus (v17), the only begotten of the Father who became flesh and dwelt among us (v14). This affirms that Jesus is a separate individual from the Father (He was with God), and yet He Himself possesses Deity (He was God). Note that the context affirms both Jesus' Deity and His humanity: God became flesh and dwelt among us.

Some argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” Hence, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. Hence, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,

(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God None say “a god.” Hence they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.).

(2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly Jesus is not a false god; hence He is true God. But if He is “god” in a different sense than the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God!

3) Many Scriptures use “God” (Gk. theos) without an article to refer to the true God.See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John 1:6,12,13,18; Romans 17:17; and many others.

(4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true GodSee Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts 5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.

(5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.

(6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article.

If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.
So John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all (v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does.
[Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell's Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.

http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin….ges.php

Rom 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I will be sharing more.

In Christ Keith

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2006,05:16)

Quote Hi W, You say “Since we know by him and for him all things were created, all things being time and space included, then the Word/Jesus could not have had a beginning.” Surely we should not be so vain as to believe life began at Genesis 1? That was only the moment God decided to create a physical universe and earth and along with that all the measures that go with visible life. Before that was “the beginning”. NH Then show me scripture saying Jesus the Word/God had a beginning. **All things** were made by him and for him. Again since he is a living being in the Universe, the created universe, did he create himself? There was nothing else before **ALL THINGS** except God. God and creation. There is no proof that Jesus had a begining. In fact since he Was and is the Word/God is all the proof we need. God didnt create himself.

Hi W,
Jesus is
the Son of God
not God.

You should believe him and stop leading others astray as the millstone will be heavy around the neck.

[Author]

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