The Trinity Doctrine

[music4two]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,05:54)

M42 We are not talking about mens wars here. We are talking about the preservation of the scriptures. And if you dont know what Arian believed, here it is in a nut shell. Arianism is a Christological view originally held by followers of Arius, a Christian priest who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a “creature”; in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of “created being”. Arianism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It seems to me that fits your teaching. Whether or not if its true about Arian or not, it still seems to be the theme of the JWs and dirivitaves of the Arian view. BTW you label us Trinitarians, and we dont get all huffy. I dont care what you label me. I am a born again Spirit filled, bible beliveing, Son of God. And I honor and serve the Father , Son and Holy Ghost.

You were speaking of an intervention of God to either preserve or destroy the writings of Arius. I did not even broach that subject.
I am not the one who brought the comparison of the preservation of scripture into the conversation.

And I quote —
“So what does this have to do with the scriptures that we have today.
What does that have to do with those who are not Catholic and who accept the Jesus of the scriptures today.
There is a reason why Arians documents were destroyed.
Could be that the same God that preserved the scriptures that he wanted us to have today is the same God that allowed those documents to be destroyed.
If they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, would not God have preserved them?”
And I quote —
“So the argument that  Arian had some truth that was destroyed by trinitarians and therefore we dont have the whole truth is weak to say the least.
We have what God wanted us to have. Believe it or reject it. Which I find many here rejecting much of the scriptures to fit their Arian roots.?”

Again I did not say God wanted them preserved. I simply stated that we have little evidence to base any true statement of what Arius believed.I also never said Arius had any truth. I have never aligned myself with Arius or the watchtower. In fact I abhor the watchtower doctrines. I think they are a slander of the character and mercy of God.
I also did not peg Arius' accusers of being trinitarian. Instead I simple called them accusers. You are the one that for some reason labeled them Trinitarians.
To use the example of preservation as proof of inspiration is a false assumption. Plato's writings were preserved. Josephus, Ceasar and many others. Do you ascert they are inspired by the Holy Spirit because they were preserved?
I never said that we were short of the truth without Arius. you said it. I do not need Arius' writings to defend my beliefs nor do i need any other non biblical sources, be they the Nicean council, non scriptural words or Greek Philosophy.

I never said anything even remoterly ascerting that you could not be a born again Spirit filled Christian if you believed in the Trinity. Those type of accusations usually come from the other direction. Many teinitarians promote that if you do not believe in the trinity, you are in a cult, a believer of Arius or watchtower or at the least unsaved.

You say I call people who believe in the Trinity, Trinitarians. that is true, but only becaue they profess a belief in that system or doctrine. I have never professed that I am a follower of watchtower or Arianism. In fact if the description of Arianism you quoted is really what He believed, (without evidence from the period difficult to do) I am adamantly against that belief too. I have never detailed what I believe and therefore you have no way to know it.  Your assumptions have no bearing at all. I have not labeled anyone but only quoted what they have labeled themselves.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, If what you say is true “Is this enough scriptural proof that Jesus/God was manifest in the flesh?” Was God a man? Why was God taught and disciplined by his human parents? What happened to God at the Jordan?

NH

What are you saying?

That the Word/God stopped being the Word/God and became a man?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Jesus is a man.
That man died.
God is not a man.
God cannot die.

Jesus is a son
Sons have Fathers.
Sons are not their fathers
Fathers are not their sons.

Beings have life.
God is the source of life.
The Son has life
Two living beings.

Beings have wills
God's will be done on earth
Christ had a will
Thy will be done not mine.

Two become one
One cannot become one
Two can love and be loved.
God loves the Son.

God sends the Son
The Son agrees to come
God fills and leads the Son
See the Father in the Son

The Spirit of God
In the Son and his brothers
Millions in two
in one.

Never three

[Worshipping Jesus]

M42

You say…

Quote

You were speaking of an intervention of God to either preserve or destroy the writings of Arius. I did not even broach that subject. I am not the one who brought the comparison of the preservation of scripture into the conversation.

You made the post in defence of Arian and his followers. Do you even know what you said? Or was this another copy and paste post, the words of someone else and not your own.

Here is Part of it…

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The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be “one substance” with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'. Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty. http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html Even though he (Constatine) had begun his reign with an edict of religious toleration, he now forbade the heretics (mostly Arians) to assemble in any public or private place, including private homes, and ordered that they be deprived of “every gathering point for [their] superstitious meetings,” including “all the houses of prayer.” These were to be given to the orthodox Church. The heretical teachers were forced to flee, and many of their students were coerced back into the orthodox fold. The emperor also ordered a search for their books, which were to be confiscated and destroyed. Hiding the works of Arius carried a severe penalty – the death sentence.

So do you promote this or not? Why would you post it?

You say…

Quote

Again I did not say God wanted them preserved. I simply stated that we have little evidence to base any true statement of what Arius believed.I also never said Arius had any truth. I have never aligned myself with Arius or the watchtower. In fact I abhor the watchtower doctrines.  I think they are a slander of the character and mercy of God. I also did not peg Arius' accusers of being trinitarian. Instead I simple called them accusers. You are the one that for some reason labeled them Trinitarians.

So I ask again. Do you support or defend the post. Why would you post it?

You say…

Quote

writings were preserved. Josephus, Ceasar and many others. Do you ascert they are inspired by the Holy Spirit because they were preserved? I never said that we were short of the truth without Arius. you said it. I do not need Arius' writings to defend my beliefs nor do i need any other non biblical sources, be they the Nicean council, non scriptural words or Greek Philosophy.

What kind of response do you expect if you post 2 pages of documents in defence of the Arians.

I was simply responding to the preservation of scripture because the implication is that somehow we missed something and Part of the truth was destroyed by trinitarians .

You say…

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You say I call people who believe in the Trinity, Trinitarians. that is true, but only becaue they profess a belief in that system or doctrine. I have never professed that I am a follower of watchtower or Arianism. In fact if the description of Arianism you quoted is really what He believed, (without evidence from the period difficult to do) I am adamantly against that belief too. I have never detailed what I believe and therefore you have no way to know it.  Your assumptions have no bearing at all. I have not labeled anyone but only quoted what they have labeled themselves.

Then again, Why would you post such?

Here is some detail of what you believe…

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As I have posted many times, If Jesus remained God while on this Earth, then He cannot be an example for the rest of us. Either Jesus stopped being God or was never one to begin with. That is the only way he can be a proper and real example for us. On more then one occasion I have ask you to show how your doctrine functions to make us more like Christ. You have understandibly ignored those posts. Obviously your teaching does not work in the real world. It is a philosophy that has nothing in common with real functional teaching. If Jesus is anything but fully human he cannot be our example.

Now I don’t call myself a Trinitarian. But I don’t care if they call me one. Because I hold a Trinitarian view.

So you say that Jesus the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God and became a man, to me that puts you in a dirivitive of the Arian view. Jesus is not God.

Scripture nowhere says the Word/God ceased to be the Word/God. Can any being stop being that being. Sounds foolish because it is.

Jesus is and was the Word, the Eternal life that was with the Father. He is the Same yesterday, today and forever.
Phil 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

These scriptures show plainly that Jesus was God and made himself of no reputation. He became a servant by taking on a human body and was born as a man.

The Spirit of Jesus that was in that body is still the Eternal life the Word/God.

He simply laid aside any claim to deity so he as a man submitted totally to the Father might fulfil all righteousness and become a faithful high priest.

The context of the above scripture is “let this mind be in you”. We are to have the same attitude that Jesus had in being a servant and humbling himself even to death.

Though he had the power to lay his life down and take it again, he laid it down.

John 13
3 Jesus **knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands**, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5 After that he
poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.
14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 **For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you**.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“These scriptures show plainly that Jesus was God and made himself of no reputation. He became a servant by taking on a human body and was born as a man.

The Spirit of Jesus that was in that body is still the Eternal life the Word/God.

He simply laid aside any claim to deity so he as a man submitted totally to the Father might fulfil all righteousness and become a faithful high priest.”

When did the Spirit of Jesus arise?
Is the Spirit of Jesus the spirit of the Word?
Did the Word empty himself or just “lay aside” his powers and glory?
Did Jesus partake of flesh or do you think the Spirit of Jesus is his human spirit?
Did scripture ever say Jesus had a claim to deity?
Was part of God born as man or was the Son of God sent?
Did God become a servant and a high priest to God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Jesus is a man. That man died. God is not a man. God cannot die. Jesus is a son Sons have Fathers. Sons are not their fathers Fathers are not their sons. Beings have life. God is the source of life. The Son has life Two living beings. Beings have wills God's will be done on earth Christ had a will Thy will be done not mine. Two become one One cannot become one Two can love and be loved. God loves the Son. God sends the Son The Son agrees to come God fills and leads the Son See the Father in the Son The Spirit of God In the Son and his brothers Millions in two in one. Never three

NH

Nice lttle poem.

Never Three?

I supose Jesus and the Apostles were liars.

Jn 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Did the Father send himself?

Matt 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I suppose Jesus didnt understand your view.

Lk 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Let me see if I look at it your way it should read like this…how much more shall your **heavenly Father give the heavenly Father** to them that ask him?

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
If Jesus said the Holy Spirit of God was another person then I will learn from you. If he did not and you are reading between the lines you should rather let him be your teacher.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God annonces from heaven and sends His Spirit to anoint Christ in the Jordan.
Christ becomes the source of that Spirit for those in him.
He is the one who baptises in the Spirit of God.
Mk 1
” 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.”

Thus Peter could say in

Acts 10
“36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

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WorshippingJesus, I'm sure you do, I also believed just as you for over 20 years, I know I was saved and God was working in my life. But a few years ago God gave me a revelation that although it could be a product of my imagination it seems to be supported by the whole of scripture. I always hesitate to tell it as I get it from both sides but since I believe it to be true I'm bound to tell it and it is the function of the body to correct or accept by rightly dividing truth (however I mostly get opinions). God is far greater then our reality (the physical universe), He is greater then the spiritual reality (which I believe we do not even begin to understand). When the Father made our “reality” He was manifested (not created) anew in this physical reality as the Son (begotten, the firstborn of all creation). The Son was 100% God (when you've seen the Son you've seen the Father, at least all that can be comprehended), but God (the Father) couldn't even begin to be contained in the Son. From that point on the Son did all things for the Father. I believe when it says “God” in scriptures that it is a “title” which refers to the Father/Son and depending on what it is in reference to, will decide if it is one, or the other, or both. If it has to do with attributes it is referring to both, if it has to do positions, decisions, authority, etc. it is the Father as Jesus would never do anything except what the Father wanted done, if it referred to tasks, visits, etc. it is referring to the Son as the Father seems to have done everything through His Son. I believe this fits with the verses which indicate there is only one God, the Father and there is none like him (there is however a Father/Son “Godhead”, after all it is scripture that tells us that me and my wife are one flesh, and that They are one), while other verses are also quite clear that Jesus is independent of the Father (He had His own will not always the same as the Father) and not His equal (but the Fathers will, not His). The Son is worthy of worship and having proved Himself, the Father has now turned all power and authority (in all of this creation) over to Him. As I indicated at the beginning I could be way off in left field (it was what I first thought) but it does seem to fit scripture and bring harmony to what was conflict. As to the Holy Spirit I do not believe “He” is a person as we would think of a person but also I read from scripture that there is more to “Him” then just the active will of God. Being obviously spiritual in nature I believe we lack the ability to truly comprehend what “He” is. this is just my opinion. May God grant us wisdom.

SS

Amen. I almost agree with.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi w, If Jesus said the Holy Spirit of God was another person then I will learn from you. If he did not and you are reading between the lines you should rather let him be your teacher.

NH

Zech 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, God annonces from heaven and sends His Spirit to anoint Christ in the Jordan. Christ becomes the source of that Spirit for those in him. He is the one who baptises in the Spirit of God. Mk 1 ” 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. 9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.” Thus Peter could say in Acts 10 “36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

NH

But if there is only 2. Then we should read it like this….

Mk 1
” 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Father.

9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Father like a dove descending upon him:

11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12And immediately the Father driveth him into the wilderness.”

Thus Peter could say in

Acts 10
“36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Father and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Has the Father ever come to earth?
No God is ever in heaven.
But He sends His own Holy and Glorious Spirit of truth and wisdom and strength and power and men should respect His Spirit.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi W, Has the Father ever come to earth? No God is ever in heaven. But He sends His own Holy and Glorious Spirit of truth and wisdom and strength and power and men should respect His Spirit.

NH

So there is three!

Jesus said the Father was in him.

What does that mean to you?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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But He sends His own Holy and Glorious Spirit of truth and wisdom and strength and power and men should respect His Spirit.

NH

How can you respect something that is not a person?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2006,21:46)

Quote Hi W, Has the Father ever come to earth? No God is ever in heaven. But He sends His own Holy and Glorious Spirit of truth and wisdom and strength and power and men should respect His Spirit. NH So there is three! Jesus said the Father was in him. What does that mean to you?

Hi W,
Indeed God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. And God should be at work in us to will and to do if we are in Christ. He also said “the Father and I will come to you”. All speak of God's Spirit.

As the situation with Ananias and Sapphira showed the Spirit of God fully represents God in His creation and must be treated with the respect due to God Himself. Likewise blasphemy against the Spirit is more serious than against the vessel of the Spirit of God, Christ.

Acts 5
” 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.”

Lk 12
” 9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. “

[Worshipping Jesus]

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As the situation with Ananias and Sapphira showed the Spirit of God fully represents God in His creation and must be treated with the respect due to God Himself. Likewise blasphemy against the Spirit is more serious than against the vessel of the Spirit of God, Christ.

NH what scripture do you have for this?

Gods Spirit is his representation for the universe?

Show me the scripture NH.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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As the situation with Ananias and Sapphira showed the Spirit of God fully represents God in His creation and must be treated with the respect due to God Himself. Likewise blasphemy against the Spirit is more serious than against the vessel of the Spirit of God, Christ.

NH

So by this I assume that you are saying that the Spirit is equal to God?

Acts 5:
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, ***but unto God***.

I understand that scriptures like this give those with a Arian view a difficult time,

But I dont understand why in the face of so many scriptures they turn their faces from them.

But then again…
Matt 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

[david]

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How can you respect something that is not a person?

I tend to respect the law. The law is not a person.

Similarly, we here the expression: “in the name of the law.” Again, even though the word name can be used with reference to it, doesn't mean it's a person.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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I tend to respect the law. The law is not a person. Similarly, we here the expression: “in the name of the law.” Again, even though the word name can be used with reference to it, doesn't mean it's a person.

David

How about the name of the Father and the name of the Son, are they a person?

[Worshipping Jesus]

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tend to respect the law.  The law is not a person. Similarly, we here the expression: “in the name of the law.”  Again, even though the word name can be used with reference to it, doesn't mean it's a person.

David

Also the Law dosnt think, feel, speak, comfort ,Guide, teach, can be grieved, can be lied to, can hear, can move, is alive…

Sometimes I wonder.

I Cor 1:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

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